Part of the problem with going all out on the Combat Maneuvers (at least as far as grappling is concerned) is that it ruins your AC.
How so? You only take a -4 penalty to your Dexterity when grappling (in beta) and you can't use a shield if you want to avoid the -4_for_not_having_two_free_hands penalty. That means -2 AC, which isn't that much.
How so? You only take a -4 penalty to your Dexterity when grappling (in beta) and you can't use a shield if you want to avoid the -4_for_not_having_two_free_hands penalty. That means -2 AC, which isn't that much.
Correct, except the table on pg 147 in chapter 9 specifically points out that if someone attacks you while you are grappling (and they are not part of the grapple) you lose your Dex bonus to AC. The wisdom bonus to AC is lost whenever the monk is denied his Dex bonus as is the Monk bonus to AC.
Which means if you enter a grapple with someone and their friend is standing beside you and decides to hit you, you lose about 1/4~1/3 of your AC to the attacker.
So if you are getting grappled by a monk the best thing that can happen for you is for your friend to hit the monk that is grappling you.
That might be just a holdover from 3.5e, as the grappled condition makes no such claims, but pinned condition states that dex bonus is lost to AC.
Also, a monk does not lose wisdom bonus to AC when he loses Dex bonus to AC.
Edit: proof for not losing wisdom bonus to AC.
AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the
monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC. In addition,
a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 4th level. This bonus
increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a
maximum of +5 at 20th level.
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or
when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he
is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he
carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
Yeah I seem to have gotten confused on the monk's AC bonus. That has been a common (in that we never even looked to see if it was correct) mistake at our local games, I'll have to mention it.
Part of the problem with going all out on the Combat Maneuvers (at least as far as grappling is concerned) is that it ruins your AC.
You are assuming that he's grappling all the time which is not necessarily the case. I think monk focused on trip/ bullrush/ disarm would be a great strategy for monks, particularly in combination with flurry of blows.
We have a monk who was surrounded with creatures he couldn't damage due to DR. He did flurry every round with trip attempts on each attack. He tripped once per round on average which seriously hindered the enemy in spite of the fact that he couldn't damage them (which is another whole issue).
Sajan comes tomorrow? I hope so!
Edit: Correction, Sajan appears in 3 hours 24 minutes!
Figures these dang elephants would hide over here too...
There goes number six! Ooh, he was a fat one.
I just checked the preview...
I found it underwhelming.
Oh well, I'll reserve judgment until I see the actual hardcover but I'm not holding my breath.
My non-battling armor-types don't leave home without their armor spikes +5, defending.Don't you mean your "epic non-battling armor-types don't leave home without their armor spikes +5, defending" ?
After all, you're talking 36,200 gp spent on armor spikes. That's a lot of bling.
After you're done with your magical armor, magical shield, magical weapon of some kind, headband of intellect (etc.), ring of protection, cloak of resistance, ioun stones, staff, wands, rods of metamagic, ring of wizardry, robe of magi, etc., somewhere in there you still have room to drop 36,200 gp on armor spikes?
You're clearly not talking about any levels that most campaigns reach.
Well, clerics are the main collectors of 1,000 gp diamonds, after all. They're the bling collectors of D&D, discounting dragonkind and tax-collectors.
Out of curiosity piqued by the preview...
If a monk's flurry is now built similar to two-weapon, does that mean that the two will not stack?
The monk has a bunch of random extras attached to stunning fist, has there been any attempt to improve the DC?
Quivering Palm really seems more appropriate for evil characters as an untraceable assassination tool. Yes, no?
If flurry now uses the monk's level as BaB, does that mean that if you force a monk to use only a standard action or to move before attacking, that you reduce their ability to hit by a large amount?
If flurry now uses the monk's level as BaB, and is their preferred avenue of attack, does that mean that monks should be able to use their flurry BaB in order to qualify for feat/prestige prerequisites that involve a BaB requirement?
Do the alterations to amulets/bracers apply for all classes, or only for monks?
Do the bonuses that monks get (level as BaB, Wisdom mod) apply to only CMD, or also to CMB? Why or why not?
I'm sure there's more...
Quivering Palm really seems more appropriate for evil characters as an untraceable assassination tool. Yes, no?
Well, if the monk has to touch someone to use it, then not necessarily. I'm sure a good divination spell or two could reveal what happened. Or a high Heal skill check. And killing someone outright with a death effect isn't necessarily evil, though you could make a fun assassin with this ability.
Overall, I like what I see about the new monk. Having tried a monk and experienced the 'flurry of misses' in multiple sessions, I look forward to trying this one out and make that a 'flurry of hits'.
Out of curiosity piqued by the preview...
If a monk's flurry is now built similar to two-weapon, does that mean that the two will not stack?
I say, let them stack!
Nothing in the word (hyphenated word) "two-weapon" that says one of them isn't a foot. Or an elbow, knee, head butt, etc. Nothing in "flurry of blows" that excludes those attacks either.
So, a monk with two-weapon uses his favorite two weapons, then he flurries to add in some extra attacks, with those weapons or with other body parts, it's all good.
Let em all stack!
And then, for fun, we'll also let every one of those 8 attacks initiate grapple attempts, and once he succeeds, the rest are knee attacks to his enemy's ribs while maintaining the grapple, and if he has a level of sorcerer he can deliver touch spells with every attack.
And did I mention he can fly from rooftop to rooftop, dangle from 80' tall bamboo blowing in the wind, and summon Kamehameha attacks at will?
OK, well, maybe I got carried away...
Maybe we should just stop them at stacking TWF for 8 normal attacks and leave it at that...
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If a monk's flurry is now built similar to two-weapon, does that mean that the two will not stack?
Jason has said in another thread that they do not.
The monk has a bunch of random extras attached to stunning fist, has there been any attempt to improve the DC?
The DC appears to be exactly what it was before.
Quivering Palm really seems more appropriate for evil characters as an untraceable assassination tool. Yes, no?
I think that mostly depends on whether it has been changed any more than we have seen in the preview so far.
If flurry now uses the monk's level as BaB, does that mean that if you force a monk to use only a standard action or to move before attacking, that you reduce their ability to hit by a large amount?
A standard attack is as accurate or more so up through 8th level. From 9th level on, the advantage goes to flurrying, but never moreso than +3 total.
If flurry now uses the monk's level as BaB, and is their preferred avenue of attack, does that mean that monks should be able to use their flurry BaB in order to qualify for feat/prestige prerequisites that involve a BaB requirement?
Given that avoiding changing the access to such things that they have currently is one of the largest reasons why they don't just have a full BAB to begin with, I think the answer is no.
Do the alterations to amulets/bracers apply for all classes, or only for monks?
In the Beta, it was all classes.
Do the bonuses that monks get (level as BaB, Wisdom mod) apply to only CMD, or also to CMB? Why or why not?
They actually don't apply to CMD, just to CMB. Since monks get to add their Wisdom bonus and an additional bonus based on their level (their monk AC bonus) to their CMD at nearly all times, however, I don't think they're feeling the lack.
hyperbole
I'm going to take everything you just said at face value, and drop your name in all discussions that touch on those subjects. =P
[EDIT]
Thanks for the replies!
I actually started doing a conversion once for monks to be able to do a "natural attack" sort of flurry, with each type eating up a feat and adding a new attack (possibly at lower damage) for each part of the body they learned to strike with...
However having mentioned it to someone that like the BoEF a bit too much and hearing their responding question I stopped...
Out of curiosity piqued by the preview...
If a monk's flurry is now built similar to two-weapon, does that mean that the two will not stack?
The monk has a bunch of random extras attached to stunning fist, has there been any attempt to improve the DC?
Quivering Palm really seems more appropriate for evil characters as an untraceable assassination tool. Yes, no?
If flurry now uses the monk's level as BaB, does that mean that if you force a monk to use only a standard action or to move before attacking, that you reduce their ability to hit by a large amount?
If flurry now uses the monk's level as BaB, and is their preferred avenue of attack, does that mean that monks should be able to use their flurry BaB in order to qualify for feat/prestige prerequisites that involve a BaB requirement?
Do the alterations to amulets/bracers apply for all classes, or only for monks?
Do the bonuses that monks get (level as BaB, Wisdom mod) apply to only CMD, or also to CMB? Why or why not?
I'm sure there's more...
- Jason said "no". That's fine by me.
- It looks like they didn't change the DC. The DC isn't really the problem so much as the fact that it's a Fort save and monster Fort saves tend to get high pretty quickly.
- Not really; you still need to punch the guy.
- Not by a "large amount", but yes; it's a maximum of +3 difference at level 17+.
- Probably not, which is a little disappointing. Monks benefit the most from (Greater, Improved) Vital Strike, and yet they don't qualify for it as quickly as full BAB classes.
- All classes, at least in the Beta. Why wouldn't they?
- Level as BAB applies for combat maneuvers in the Beta (they call it "Maneuver Training"). Wis mod to AC wouldn't affect CMB; why would it?
EDIT: Oh, Shisumo answered these already. Some of my answers are slightly different, though.
From what I can tell, flurry simply looks like the application of Two-Weapon Fighting at full BAB, thus Two-Weapon Fighting would not stack with itself.
Monk, Flurry of blows
+9/+3 -> +11/+6 -> +9/+9/+4/+4
Warrior, Two weapon fighting
+11/+6 -> +9/+9/+4/+4
Warrior, Two weapon fighting
+14/+9/+4 -> +14/+14/+9/+9/+4
Warrior, Improved Two weapon fighting
+14/+9/+4 -> +14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4
Monk, Flurry of Blows, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
+11/+6 -> +14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4
I hope that this would allow a monk to use Improved two-weapon fighting, just to get 1 additional attack, just like anyone else could.
As for increasing the DC of stunning fist, couldn't we just snatch from the Monstrous feats (people do it for Improved Natural Attack), and just give your character the feat Ability Focus?
And truthfully the DC for Stunning fist (indeed all the powers a monk can get) isn't bad at all.
Every use is at the Best DC of a spell that a wizard of that level could cast -- in fact you get a Base DC that is better than what a wizard could do (10+10 as opposed to 10+9). In addition to the feat mentioned above (ability focus) which works at +2... which it takes a wizard two feats to equal with one class of spells.
However for all this you do have to hit in melee, and it doesn't last as long as a spell would (or have the same power).
Course if you have one of those DM's that never fail a save throw...
Not really; you still need to punch the guy.
A punch in the morning that gets you thrown out of some place doesn't equate to falling over dead at dinner. Seems like an amazing assassination tool. We're not talking heat of battle, this is premeditated murder.
All classes, at least in the Beta. Why wouldn't they?
I didn't say they should or shouldn't, just curious.
Level as BAB applies for combat maneuvers in the Beta (they call it "Maneuver Training"). Wis mod to AC wouldn't affect CMB; why would it?
Same reason it would effect CMD, I guess. Wouldn't be hard to fluff.
QuestionsGreat Answers to questions.
What he said - I concur on every point.