I didn't use true strike because it was generally a waste of time...
what he said ^^^
I didn't use true strike because it was generally a waste of time...
I used it in a high-level beta playtest. I was playing a fighter/sorcerer/eldritch knight, and I used quickened true strikes while power-attacking and using overwhelming strike. Standard action single attack for 4d6+58 damage. Fun times.
Anywhoo, regarding the list of opponents Flynn faced off against; a better list would be drawing off of CR 8 critters, since in Pathfinder, Flynn's own CR is only 8.
I don't really think True Strike is particularly broken in this instance; grappling an opponent for a single round only to have him break out the next round is no big deal.
True. I should've used bull rush as an example. Suddenly that cliff 20ft away is awfully close.
Anyway, I could've also asked how is that monk any better than a similar fighter (or mnk1-2/ftrN). Or use Strength Surge instead of True Strike. Or just generally wonder why monks are the best grapplers. And if they're not, then what are they.
I'm just not convinced that monks are teh grapplers. Not the least. It's just what the monks do (almost) best. It doesn't mean that they would be good at it.
I'm just not convinced that monks are teh grapplers. Not the least. It's just what the monks do (almost) best. It doesn't mean that they would be good at it.
One of the variant monk abilities that received a lot of favorable response during the playtest period was letting monks deal their unarmed strike damage with any successful maneuver. Sorta like constrict, but for all four of the different maneuvers instead of just grappling. If that made it into the final, it would go a long way to making monks the go-to guys for fancy fightin' moves.
Agreed and that would be neat to see. I'm really keen on seeing the next couple of Iconics. The druid got a lot of fire and defense on the beta system and I'm interested in seeing where it lands. Personally I think it will look a LOT like beta, but I also believe there will be slight tweaks to how the stat boosts from Wild Shaping happen.
I imagine after Druid they'll do Barbarian, since that's a fairly easy one that will probably have little over drama to it, followed by the rogue leaving the monk for last.
The issue is that all of this relies heavily on a strongly favorable set of conditions. And sure, you have a hopefully benevolent GM, but what if I was planning on using enemies too large to grapple, or flying opponents, or god-forbid, incorporeal undead?
I think the problem with the monk is that all the things it does well are highly situational, compared particularly to the buffed barbarian or the somewhat improved fighter. (Slightly, at least :( )
I think the problem is people are too tied up on grappling. The monk has several ways to limit his opponents.
Stunning fist, Scorpion strike, Medusa's Breath, and Gorgon's Wrath are very powerful. If the monk in question adds in the dazzling display and stunning defense he can quite quickly shut down an opponent.
A monk following this idea will have a slight weakness to mindless opponents, however against things that can be stunned, or demoralized, he can stop their actions while still getting a full attack consisting of up to 9 attacks all but two of which are at his best attack roll:
1 (Base) + 1 (Haste) + 2 (Flurry) + 1 (Ki) + 2 (gorgon's wrath) + 2 Iterative = 9 attacks
That's something no one else can do, each of those attacks can deal up to 2d10 each give the monk the possibility of 18d10 + 9 x strength Mod damage each round, against a foe that can't act and is flat footed.
Is this going to happen all the time? No, however it can happen regularly and the monk will be able to also dimension door around, and heal himself as well.
In short the monk is now a striker to use the 4e terminology. He moves in (or better has them move up to him) then uses status effects to ruin their effectiveness while (possibly simultaneously) dealing how several dice worth of damage.
I think the problem is people are too tied up on grappling. The monk has several ways to limit his opponents.
Stunning fist, Scorpion strike, Medusa's Breath, and Gorgon's Wrath are very powerful. If the monk in question adds in the dazzling display and stunning defense he can quite quickly shut down an opponent.
Stunning Fist is O.K., although most monsters have a good Fort save. Note that Stunning Fist doesn't help you trigger Medusa's Wrath though (it ends at the beginning of your next turn).
Scorpion Style is good too (at least at low levels where flight and teleport are less common), although again it's a Fort save.
Gorgon's Fist seems like a waste of an action to me, although it could help you trigger Medusa's Wrath. Yet again, it's a Fort save.
Medusa's Wrath is great, assuming your teammate can help you pull it off.
In short the monk is now a striker to use the 4e terminology.
No, no, absolutely not, no! A "striker" in 4e is supposed to do significantly more damage than other roles. That is NOT what a monk does; in fact I think just about every other class is superior to a monk in terms of doing damage!
Stunning fist does trigger because as soon as they fail the save they are opened to the continuing attacks, if the stunning fist is done as the first attack of a full attack action then you are taking a full attack action which allows the extra attacks. At least that's how it has been seen locally.
Absolutely a monk can deal more damage than others, however it does require the monk on focusing on getting that extra damage, and enhancing his means of accessing it (with stunning defense and dazzling display for example).
Using the Beta's Vital Strike we can lose that last attack leading all the other attacks to deal 4d10 damage at maximum damage.
I'll run up and post a build tomorrow to highlight my ideas on it (using beta since we don't have anything else for pathfinder monks yet), and I'll go with a 20 point buy level 11 build, just to keep it middle of the road.
A PF fighter can cross 300 damage in core, easy, without charger abuse. I'm not compelled by 4d10 damage. That said, I'm really curious about the build, and look forward to seeing it. :)
A PF fighter can cross 300 damage in core, easy, without charger abuse. I'm not compelled by 4d10 damage. That said, I'm really curious about the build, and look forward to seeing it. :)
Note that the final version of Power Attack has been nerfed, so it may be more difficult for a fighter to do that much damage.
Nevertheless, a straight PFRPG Beta monk can't get the feat Vital Strike until level 15 (maybe this will change in the final rules), so tossing around the number 4d10 is a bit disingenuous, considering Paizo's recent adventure paths and modules don't even go that high...
What's the precise shape of the nerf in Final?
What's the precise shape of the nerf in Final?
I think Power Attack is capped at a smaller number, something like [BAB/4, rounded up] instead of [BAB].
James Jacobs has already said people are blowing this "Oh no PA is nerfed" baloney out of proportion. We don't know how or when is capped, we have not seen the full power attack feat. All we know is that the iconic fighter at level 13 can power attack for a -4 on all his attacks and get + 8 damage on his primary weapon and +4 damage on his secondary, which is not a nerf. It is an improvement the fighter is getting more damage for less penalty while using two weapon fighting. That's a 2 damage for 1 penalty for the primary weapon (which is not two handed) and 1 damage for 1 penalty on the secondary weapon.
I'm going to be late on my monk post sorry. I'm doing something a bit different than I orginally stated too. In order to do a build that is able to be compared to Lenny and the others that Turin the Mad did during the beta testing I am going to do the Monk with the 25 point buy at 16th level.
To point in the direction I'm going to go with the monk I can preview his probable race, stats, skills, and feat list:
Half Orc Monk (16)
Str 18
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 18
Cha 8
Intimidate, Acrobatics, Perception
Bonus feats: Stunning fist, Scorpion Strike, Medusa's Wrath, Gorgon's Fist, Deflect Arrows
Normal Feats: Martial Weapon proficiency (Greatsword), Weapon focus, Dazzling Display, Stunning Defense, Power Attack, Toughness, Extra Ki, Vital Strike
This leaves me his money to spend and a synopsis of why I think this can work... which will both be posted tomorrow.
All right lets do this:
half orc Monk
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 18 (22 after level adjustment) Cha 8
Feats: Stunning fist, Scorpion Strike, Medusa's Wrath, Gorgon's Fist, Deflect Arrows, Martial Weapon proficiency (Greatsword), Weapon focus (greatsword), Dazzling Display, Stunning Defense, Power Attack, Toughness, weapon focus(unarmed strike), Vital Strike
Magical Equipment:
+4 "Ki" Greatsword (50,000)
Monk's Robes (13,000)
+4 belt of physical Might (Str & Dex) (40,000)
Bracers of Armor +7 (49,000)
Amulet of the Fist + 4 (80,000)
+6 headband of wisdom (36,000)
+3 Cloak of Resistance (9,000)
+4 Ring of Protection (32,000)
Many potions of enlarge person
Total GP spent: 315,000
Buffs in play are: Haste, Greater heroism, Prayer (just like Lenny)
Now lets do some math:
This monk's Attack bonus is 12 (BAB) + 6 (Str) + 4 (Amulet) + 1 (Weapon Focus) = 23 Normally, with the buffs involved we get another +6 = +29.
so this monk's normal attack routine (just standing there and laying into the guy) is +29 (First attack) + 29 (Haste) + 29 (flurry) + 29 (flurry) + 29 (Ki point) +24 (second attack) + 19 (last attack)
He will do 2d10 + 6 (Str Mod) + 4 (Amulet) + 1 (buffs) damage coming out on average of 21 points of damage a hit.
If he gives up that last attack to vital strike (not a bad choice) he instead deals 4d10 + 11 damage which comes out to an average of 32 damage a hit.
The CR 18 AC 35 opponent was the norm for Lenny using that here this monk will need a 6+ to hit with his first five swings and a 11+ to hit with his last one.
I feel rather safe saying 5 attacks are going to land, which means our monk here is looking at an average 160 damage without doing anything special.
Now if the Monk was to decide to Power attack his attack bonus drops to +23 on the first five attacks and +18 on the last one, however the damage goes up another 6 points per hit averaging at 38 points of damage a hit, needing a 12+ on the first five swings and a 17+ on the last one... not so great really, and it isn't recommended to power attack on normal attack routines. However if the monk manages 5 hits he would be looking at 190 damage, not likely though.
Now we look at the greatsword. The greatsword is "Ki" which means the monk can use all his delightful unarmed tricks on it too. Which means he has 5 attacks at +29 to hit, with a damage rate of 4d6+9 (two handed strength) + 4 (Magic) + 1 (buffs) = 28 damage a hit. Assuming 5 hits (again) we are looking at 140. Not wonderful, however the power attack does bring something to this by doubling the damage bonus. In exchange for that +23 on his first five attacks and +18 on his last one, the monk now is looking at the same 4d6+9+4... + 12 coming out to 40 damage a hit. If he manages 5 hits (still not likely) he would have a more respectable 200 damage.
However lets say he did do something special, and the opponent has ended up on the receiving end of a successful stunning fist. In this case the opponent has dropped whatever was in his hands, has no Dex Mod and is -2 to his AC on top of this. In this situation his AC has probably dropped to the 30 mark (either 3 from the shield or Dex, and -2 from being stunned), meaning he is much easier to hit.
In this case the monk has several new advantages going for him beyond the obvious not getting hit and lower AC. This activates his other feats which give him an additional two attacks. Meaning he has seven swings at +29 to hit and one at +24. With his fists this means that he is likely to get 7 hits (needing only a 2 since 1's are auto failure) and still likely to get that last one in too (needing a 6+). With seven hits he is looking at 224 damage.
Power attacking he goes down to +23 to hit needing a 7+ to hit with his first seven attacks and 12+ on his last swing. If he gets seven hits in (very possible) he'll look to do an additional 42 damage for a damage total of 266.
However if he uses his greatsword when power attacking instead he'll be looking at 40 damage a hit. If he manages 7 hits he'll do 280 damage on average in a round.
Finally if the monk manages to swig one of his potions of enlarge person his damage changes: 2d10 becomes 4d8. Using Vital strike that 4d8 becomes 8d8 coming in at an average damage of 36 damage + 12 (strength increased by 1) or 48 points of damage a hit. Five hits of that would be 240 damage. Power attacking would actually make hitting even harder since the strength increased however it would deal an additional 35 points of damage (275 total) if 5 attacks hit. In the case that the monk opponent is stunned or gorgon's fist becomes possible seven attacks landing would give 336 damage or 371 damage after power attacking.
The sword's damage would increase to 3d6 becoming 6d6 after vital strike or 21 damage + 15 = 36 damage. Power attacking would increase the damage to 50. At this point the sword is actually near useless as the stacking effects of the unarmed strike damage, vital strike and the enlarging means the dice are worth more than the power attacking great sword.
Please note a different approach would be to completely drop the greatsword and pick up the Improved Natural Attack from the monster manual. I left this idea out until the very end of the post simply because it is not "Beta Core" though I have seen it regularly with monk builds in 3.5. If Improved Natural Attack was available the monk wouldn't ever use the greatsword as his natural attacks would start at the 4d8 before enlarging. After enlarging he would get another 2d8 to his unarmed strike damage. The increase to damage from this would be 12d8 (after vital striking) a hit which translates into 54 damage adding on the strength modifier, amulet and buffs would take this up to 65 damage a hit. At five hits this would be 325 damage, at seven hits it would be 455 damage.
The Monk would have an AC of 40 unenlarged and 39 after enlarging, and save throws of +15(f) + 16(r) + 23(w). In addition he as the several other nice perks the fighter really can't match: Dimension door, self healing, SR 26 and immunity to all diseases and poisons. This particular Monk has 25 uses of his stunning fist and 17 "Ki" points.
Wow very nice writeup. Makes me want to play my monk again!
I guess I never focused on str and instead on wis/dex/con with weapon finesse, and improved natural attack.
in short, monks would be half-casters
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...
I guess I'll post a monk build I've been thinking about here. I don't usually do this, as I'm a bit shy about it, but I thought it was an interesting concept.
Important notes: I don't limit myself to core anything, and don't particularly care what people think about that. Also, I'm fairly certain that my math will be off in places, because that's how I roll. Lastly, speaking of rolls... I used the WotC dice roller for stats, it's not my fault. Oh, I should also point out that I took no levels of monk to make this monk; because I wanted him to be useful.
Turk LN Male Human Fighter 14 Stat rolls: 18 16 16 14 10 8
Str: 18
Dex: 21 (+2 at Creation, +1 at 4th/8th/12th)
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 8
Type: Humanoid
Size: Medium
Speed: 30
AC: 23 (10 +5 Dex +8 Armor -- could be much better)
HP: 152
BAtt: 14/9/4
Fort: 10
Ref: 9
Will: 7
CMB: 19
Attacks:
Unarmed Attack - +21/16/11 1d10+7 x2
Vital Unarmed Attack - +21/16 2d10+7 x2
Unarmed Strikes - +19/19/14/9 1d10+7 x2
Vital Unarmed Strikes - +19/19/14 2d10+7 x2
Flurry - +19/21/14/16/9/11 1d10+7 x2
Vital Flurry - +19/21/14/16/11 2d10+7 x2
Brawling - +17/19/19/12/14/7/9 1d10+7 x2
Vital Brawling - +17/19/19/12/14/9 2d10+7 x2
Charge - +19/21 - 1d10+1d12+7 x2
Rushing Assault - +17/19/19 1d10+1d12+7 x2
Attacks of Opportunity - +21/16/11 1d10+7
Vital Attacks of Opportunity - +21/16 2d10+7 x2
Brutality of Opportunity - +19/21/14/16/9/11 1d10+7 x2
Vital Brutality of Opportunity +19/21/14/16/11 2d10+7 x2
Pin Damage - 1d10+1d12+7
Racial abilities:
Bonus Skills
Bonus Feat x8
Class abilities:
Favored skill/hp bonus
Bonus Feat x8
Bravery
Armor Training x3
Weapon Training x3
Special Abilities:
Plucky - -1 Fort/+1 Will
Flaw - Inattentive (-4 Listen & Spot)
Flaw - Murkyeyed (Increased Miss chance)
Bonus Feat x2
Feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple
Scorpion's Grasp (When attack hits normal damage and free action grapple)
Earth's Embrace (If opponent pinned, deal 1d12 damage per round pin is maintained)
Two-Weapon Fighting
Superior Unarmed Strike - Bonus damage
Close-Quarters Fighting - Attack anyone who grapples, bonus to prevent grapple, attack in grapple with no penalty.
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Snap Kick - Any unarmed attack action (standard, full, charge, etc.) allows an extra unarmed attack, all take -2.
Combat Reflexes
Double Hit - Attack with both weapons when provoked.
Two-Weapon Pounce - Attack with both weapons when charging.
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Flying Kick - Extra 1d12 on a Charge.
Vital Strike - Give up an attack for increased damage on others.
Improved Combat Reflexes - Attack twice when provoked
Greater Combat Reflexes - Attack three times when provoked
Double Slice - Reduce offhand penalties by 2.
Skills: Name Ranks Ability Misc Total
Acrobatics 17 3 -1 19
Climb 12 4 2 18
Craft
Handle Animal
Intimidate
Know. DUngeon
Know. Engineer
Linguistics 5 0 5
Profession
Ride 4 3 2 9
Survival 4 2 3 9
Swim 10 4 2 16
Possessions:
Breastplate -1 armor check
It's worth noting that this character is pretty optimized in my game group because we disagree with grappling rules. In our game a grapple is an attack action, which means you can grapple as many times as you could normally attack and you certainly don't lose the grapple status for attacking. It works for us. That being the case, I've kind of broken our grapple system, because between making seven attacks and getting a free grapple with each that hits; this character starts racking up pin damage pretty quickly. (Which we also allow multiples of per round)
Yes, I know that RAW disagrees with this; but RAW should have come up with better grappling rules if it wanted them used.
I guess I'll post a monk build I've been thinking about here.
It's worth noting that this character is pretty optimized in my game group because we disagree with grappling rules. In our game a grapple is an attack action, which means you can grapple as many times as you could normally attack. It works for us. That being the case, I've kind of broken our grapple system, because between making seven attacks and getting a free grapple with each that hits; this character starts racking up pin damage pretty quickly. (Which we also allow multiples of per round)
Yes, I know that RAW disagrees with this; but RAW should have come up with better grappling rules if it wanted them used.
Wow.
I don't think even Royce Gracie could manage 4 rear naked chokes in a 6 second round of combat...
Wow.
I don't think even Royce Gracie could manage 4 rear naked chokes in a 6 second round of combat...
Haha, yeah. See I long ago learned that presentation is key with this sort of thing.
First you recap the house rules, "We do it like this right?"
And then you ask for a clarification of something you already understand, "So if I take the same penalties, I could use the same attack bonuses as two-weapon fighting for grapples, right?"
And when you've got them nodding, "Bam. I made something crazy."
In order to do a build that is able to be compared to Lenny and the others that Turin the Mad did during the beta testing I am going to do the Monk with the 25 point buy at 16th level.
Is that the reason you used Beta half-orc statistics instead of the "+2 to any" from the final Pathfinder RPG?
The CR 18 AC 35 opponent was the norm for Lenny using that here this monk will need a 6+ to hit with his first five swings and a 11+ to hit with his last one.
I feel rather safe saying 5 attacks are going to land, which means our monk here is looking at an average 160 damage without doing anything special.
He's going to hit 4.5 times on average. For 33 damage per hit (you had a little error on the Vital Strike damage) it adds up to an average of 148.5 damage per turn. In the same way the rest of the damages shown in your post are a bit lower, but not much.
Now we look at the greatsword. The greatsword is "Ki" which means the monk can use all his delightful unarmed tricks on it too.
That's half right. He can use all his ki powers through the greatsword. Flurrying isn't a ki power, though, so no flurrying with a greatsword.
This activates his other feats which give him an additional two attacks.
To my current understanding of the rules, this is incorrect. Medusa's Wrath says "All of your unarmed strikes must be made against a dazed, flatfooted, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe". He wasn't stunned when you delivered your first blow from the full-attack action. And he's not going to be stunned when you have your next turn anymore. So no additional attacks this way, sorry.
In general, if you want to do damage with a monk the best bet is to go the enlarged, hasted, improved natural attack, vital strike path. Everything else just complicates things too much and doesn't really work (ie. the Ki Focus Greatsword).
The Monk would have an AC of 40 unenlarged and 39 after enlarging, and save throws of +15(f) + 16(r) + 23(w). In addition he as the several other nice perks the fighter really can't match
True. And in a one-on-one fight the fighter would mop the floor with the monk. They have their niches. Unfortunately, making damage is not what the monk does best.
"True. And in a one-on-one fight the fighter would mop the floor with the monk. They have their niches. Unfortunately, making damage is not what the monk does best."
What is the Monk's niche?
What is the Monk's niche?
Good question. Don't think he really has one, since there are classes that do everything he does, only better. I guess the monk is sort of a stand in for pretty much anything. "We don't have a red-shirt, so let's use the monk.", "We need some muscle to block this corridor, and we're out of fighters, so let's use the monk.", "Someone needs to climb that wall. We don't have a rogue, so let's use the monk.", "Those wizards are raining down doom on us, and the cleric just failed his will save, so lets use the monk."
I strongly disagree that statting up 20th level monks and saying "aren't they great!" is any indication at all that the class is well-constructed, or even viable. A 20th level warrior is great compared to CR 8 threats. As Samuli points out, if a fighter of equal level can uniquivocally mop the floor with you, you're not "all that." If a lower-level fighter can mop the floor with you, you're decidedly sub-par.
I strongly disagree that statting up 20th level monks and saying "aren't they great!" is any indication at all that the class is well-constructed, or even viable. A 20th level warrior is great compared to CR 8 threats. As Samuli points out, if a fighter of equal level can uniquivocally mop the floor with you, you're not "all that." If a lower-level fighter can mop the floor with you, you're decidedly sub-par.
I was going to say something similar; I think it's especially silly to talk about how good Vital Strike is for a monk when it's not available until level 15.
But I'm saving all of my criticising muscles for next week when the official monk preview comes out. :-)
At the very least, Jason mentioned something about "full BAB when using unarmed attacks", so that's a step in the right direction (i.e. monks may be better at punching than fighters are).
I was going to say something similar; I think it's especially silly to talk about how good Vital Strike is for a monk when it's not available until level 15.
I thought the Valeros preview spoiled vital strike's prereqs were lowered to BAB +6, with improved and greater versions at +11 and +16.
I further thought it no longer required a full attack, which would allow you to move and make a vital strike as a standard action.
Now we look at the greatsword. The greatsword is "Ki" which means the monk can use all his delightful unarmed tricks on it too.That's half right. He can use all his ki powers through the greatsword. Flurrying isn't a ki power, though, so no flurrying with a greatsword.
I disagree however, it's neither here nor there, and a temple sword could be used to make the same point, the only time the Greatsword was worth anything was when power attacking a stunned opponent anyways.
I went with Half-Orc because it was the better monk than human, however the stats could end up about the same on a human (you'd have to drop Cha and Int to 7 each though). The point was to prove a monk could get close to the same damage as a fighter.
Also:
The AC can be raised more. There is another point in the Bracers to be had, and in the Ring, plus a potion of barkskin and potion of shield would be +4 AC meaning a possibilty of +8, spending a Ki point on AC instead of an attack adds another 4, while going with a belt of 6 would add another 1, meaning an AC of 53.
Finally:
In the end for a monk needs the following to get high damage outputs:
Vital Strike
Improved Natural weapon (if at all possible)
Monk's Robes (up until level 20)
Getting to Large Size.
Added in:
Now Lenny does have a problem problems the Monk doesn't though. The monk can choose to leave the fight at anytime with Abundant step, and can heal himself if he wants. Heck even without AS his speed is such he can always simply withdraw. Now the Fighter does have a good Fort save (somewhere in the range of +18~+20 = 10 + 4 cloak + 6 Con) however the Monk's DC's for doing "special stuff" will be 27 (10 + 8 -1/2 level- + 9 -Wis Mod-) which means even if it doesn't stick all the time he has a 50~35% chance it will and doesn't cost much to use them.
All either needs is one good round.
What is the Monk's niche?Good question. Don't think he really has one, since there are classes that do everything he does, only better. I guess the monk is sort of a stand in for pretty much anything. "We don't have a red-shirt, so let's use the monk.", "We need some muscle to block this corridor, and we're out of fighters, so let's use the monk.", "Someone needs to climb that wall. We don't have a rogue, so let's use the monk.", "Those wizards are raining down doom on us, and the cleric just failed his will save, so lets use the monk."
The monk has one niche that is very nearly his own.
He can move fast, get around enemy defenses, and strike their casters and bosses in the back ranks better than any class.
Well, OK, a mage might teleport over there, but that would be suicidal - he puts himself in harm's way, risking multiple AoOs and or held actions, has low AC/HP, and is less effective than he would be just staying safe and lobbing spells.
The monk, on the other hand, has the movement speed to get there quick (at after 12th level he can dimension door), has the AC and HP to withstand being pounded on a bit, has the saves and Evasion to shrug off most of the enemy spellcasters' tricks, and has enough damage output to kill mages quickly - sending a barbarian is overkill, for example (and he might not get there if that enemy mage knows what he's doing).
So I put it forth that the monk's niche is the mage-killer of the party (though that role extends to cleric-killer and maybe even to boss-killer, though that last is more like boss-annoyer).
So I put it forth that the monk's niche is the mage-killer of the party (though that role extends to cleric-killer and maybe even to boss-killer, though that last is more like boss-annoyer).
Yes; "annoyer," not "killer." He pops in, waves his arms around and inflicts one attack (because he's moving) for minimal damage, and then runs away.
The monk has one niche that is very nearly his own.
He can move fast, get around enemy defenses, and strike their casters and bosses in the back ranks better than any class.
[..]
The monk, on the other hand, has the movement speed to get there quick (at after 12th level he can dimension door), has the AC and HP to withstand being pounded on a bit, has the saves and Evasion to shrug off most of the enemy spellcasters' tricks, and has enough damage output to kill mages quickly - sending a barbarian is overkill, for example (and he might not get there if that enemy mage knows what he's doing).
I'm not sure I see why I wouldn't just use a mounted barbarian or mounted charger paladin instead of the monk for this role.
Mounts are almost always faster than even a monk 20, particularly with the mounted rules being so strange. And... :: shrugs :: they're available much earlier, and easier to replace (the mounts).
I'm not sure I see why I wouldn't just use a mounted barbarian or mounted charger paladin instead of the monk for this role.
Obvious answer: horses don't fit in most dungeons, and can't climb walls. Easy response: use halflings mounted on more agile steeds. Easier response: give the party wizard a baleful polymorph spell, and he's a better wizard-killer than the monk will ever be.
So I put it forth that the monk's niche is the mage-killer of the party (though that role extends to cleric-killer and maybe even to boss-killer, though that last is more like boss-annoyer).Yes; "annoyer," not "killer." He pops in, waves his arms around and inflicts one attack (because he's moving) for minimal damage, and then runs away.
Agreed, the best thing for a monk is to draw them into him. Make them give up the full attack for a charge so he can then full attack instead.
Monk's definitely require a lot of finesse to use... in a way they are like paladins -- not for everyone.
My replacement for Quivering Palm and Empty body......
Benediction of Irori-Advanced Martial Arts, Ki pool of at least 16, Monk lvl of 20, Worshipped deity is Irori
by being a disciple of Irori, god of perfection, you have been given the ability to unleash his wrath upon those who threaten the balance within Golarion, but with this great power, comes a cost to match the magnitude of this gift. May you strike those fools into oblivion
by spending half of your total ki points and rolling a fortitude of 17, reduce your AC by 8 and raise your HD one size class(at the cost of your damage modifier, and the ability to use a ki strike), these bonuses stack. This ability can be used a total of once a week(the only exception to this is going through all three die rolls, so if you succeed only one, you still may only use this in battle once a week). if failed your AC and damage return to normal
(math may be a little wonky)
1st success(saving throw's DC is 18): -8 to normal AC, unarmed attacks do 4d8(damage of large monk)....flurry does a max of 192
2nd success: -16 to normal AC(saving throw's DC is 19), unarmed attacks 6d8(damage of huge monks)....flurry does 288
final success(must roll a natural 20): -24 to normal AC, unarmed attacks do 8d8(damage of gargantuan monks)
once all 3 are used the monk falls unconscious and lose 1d4 points Con per turn, until a "Cure Serious" is cast, or until Con drops to 1 point.
yay!
Agreed, the best thing for a monk is to draw them into him. Make them give up the full attack for a charge so he can then full attack instead.
How do you do that, exactly. Given that there are other options, why would someone charge the monk?
Agreed, the best thing for a monk is to draw them into him. Make them give up the full attack for a charge so he can then full attack instead.How do you do that, exactly. Given that there are other options, why would someone charge the monk?
Metagame answer:
Goblin Leader: Attack, my minions!
Alpha Goblin: Oooh, lookie, a guy with no weapons or armor, and no spell component pouch either. He must be a monk. He can't hurt any of us! Come with me, fellas! We'll go around this harmless monk!
Goblin Horde: Yeah, yeah! Save the monkey for last! Kill the big guy in all that shiny armor with the huge sword! Yeah yeah!
Roleplay answer:
Goblin Leader: Attack, my minions!
Alpha Goblin: Oooh, lookie, a guy with no weapons or armor! Come on, guys, let's kill this helpless idiot first!
Goblin Horde: Yeah, yeah! Kill the idiot! But, uh, who's gonna be dumb enough to attack the big guy in all that shiny armor with the huge sword? Nuh uh, won't be me, I'll be killing the idiot! Yeah yeah!
Animals won't know the difference. Nor will undead, or other mindless beasts, constructs, oozes, etc.
Intelligent minions will avoid the scary guys at all costs and prefer to pick on the weak guys, unless their even-scarier boss forces them to charge the scary heroes first. Even then, some will take the chicken's way out and go for the one guy they think they can beat - they guy with no armor or weapons.
Very intelligent monsters, bosses, NPC adventurers, and the odd clever minion, will certainly see the benefit in saving that monk til last.
So, play the enemies according to their nature, and the monk will get plenty of enemies rushing into his open arms...
So, play the enemies according to their nature, and the monk will get plenty of enemies rushing into his open arms...
Agreed, but no more than the rest of the party. Or anyone else in the front row at least. I understood from Abe that monks are best when they somehow draw enemies to them. I didn't quite get how the monk does that.
While I agree that it's a great idea to lure enemies to attack you, were you a monk or a sword'n'board fighter - but how do you pull that off? It's not enough to get your share of enemies attacking you. That doesn't help the party at all (or not anymore than if you were a more offensively oriented character). That's not a monk niche, or even strength.
On another note, I hope that this week's monk preview has something nice for monks who use weapons. I saw someone mention (based on information from Paizocon, I think) that the final version of the monk might have full BAB when fighting unarmed; I hope that goes for using special monk weapons, too.
So, play the enemies according to their nature, and the monk will get plenty of enemies rushing into his open arms...Agreed, but no more than the rest of the party. Or anyone else in the front row at least. I understood from Abe that monks are best when they somehow draw enemies to them. I didn't quite get how the monk does that.
While I agree that it's a great idea to lure enemies to attack you, were you a monk or a sword'n'board fighter - but how do you pull that off? It's not enough to get your share of enemies attacking you. That doesn't help the party at all (or not anymore than if you were a more offensively oriented character). That's not a monk niche, or even strength.
Well if you are a monk, and you aren't wearing any armor or carrying any weapons one means is to bluff out some spell casting, maybe pick up some UMD ranks to help.
Otherwise position yourself well. The enemy might regularly go after the mages... stay near them so when the enemy appears you are lined up to intercept. If they attack the front line (try to beat through) again plan accordingly. The monk has options, most of them are RP. There aren't many powers, skills or feats that force someone to you so you got to give them an in game reason.
All right lets do this:
half orc Monk
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 18 (22 after level adjustment) Cha 8
Spoiler:
Feats: Stunning fist, Scorpion Strike, Medusa's Wrath, Gorgon's Fist, Deflect Arrows, Martial Weapon proficiency (Greatsword), Weapon focus (greatsword), Dazzling Display, Stunning Defense, Power Attack, Toughness, weapon focus(unarmed strike), Vital StrikeMagical Equipment:
+4 "Ki" Greatsword (50,000)
Monk's Robes (13,000)
+4 belt of physical Might (Str & Dex) (40,000)
Bracers of Armor +7 (49,000)
Amulet of the Fist + 4 (80,000)
+6 headband of wisdom (36,000)
+3 Cloak of Resistance (9,000)
+4 Ring of Protection (32,000)
Many potions of enlarge personTotal GP spent: 315,000
Buffs in play are: Haste, Greater heroism, Prayer (just like Lenny)
Now lets do some math:
This monk's Attack bonus is 12 (BAB) + 6 (Str) + 4 (Amulet) + 1 (Weapon Focus) = 23 Normally, with the buffs involved we get another +6 = +29.
so this monk's normal attack routine (just standing there and laying into the guy) is +29 (First attack) + 29 (Haste) + 29 (flurry) + 29 (flurry) + 29 (Ki point) +24 (second attack) + 19 (last attack)
He will do 2d10 + 6 (Str Mod) + 4 (Amulet) + 1 (buffs) damage coming out on average of 21 points of damage a hit.
If he gives up that last attack to vital strike (not a bad choice) he instead deals 4d10 + 11 damage which comes out to an average of 32 damage a hit.
The CR 18 AC 35 opponent was the norm for Lenny using that here this monk will need a 6+ to hit with his first five swings and a 11+ to hit with his last one.
I feel rather safe saying 5 attacks are going to land, which means our monk here is looking at an average 160 damage without doing anything special.
Now if the Monk was to decide to Power attack his attack bonus drops to +23 on the first five attacks and +18 on the last one, however the damage goes up another 6 points per hit averaging at 38 points of damage a hit, needing a 12+ on the first five swings and a 17+ on the last one... not so great...
For those keeping count, this monk was purchased using 37 ability points, a full 12 points beyond what is considered "epic fantasy."
I hardly call this a fair rendition for purposes of comparison!
Yes, a monk will deal much more damage to peons than a fighter or barbarian can. However, standard play includes four standard players, a fighter will vastly outshine the monk, and when you get to situations where you have 8 players, your monk can't hit the big ones at all, and is lucky if he even has peons to play with.
...All right lets do this:
half orc Monk
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 18 (22 after level adjustment) Cha 8
** spoiler omitted **
WRONG!
10 for str 5 for dex 2 for con 0 for int 10 for wis -2 for cha = 25
(16 str 14 dex 12 con 10 Int 16 Wis 8 Cha)
Then you adjust for half orc
Which gives 18 str 14 dex 12 con 8 int 18 wis 8 cha
Plus the four level adjustments to wisdom puts us at
18 str 14 dex 12 con 8 int 22 wis 8 cha
If you actually check the rest of the post most of what you are talking about is covered.
...All right lets do this:
half orc Monk
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 18 (22 after level adjustment) Cha 8
** spoiler omitted **WRONG!
10 for str 5 for dex 2 for con 0 for int 10 for wis -2 for cha = 25
(16 str 14 dex 12 con 10 Int 16 Wis 8 Cha)
Then you adjust for half orc
Which gives 18 str 14 dex 12 con 8 int 18 wis 8 cha
Plus the four level adjustments to wisdom puts us at
18 str 14 dex 12 con 8 int 22 wis 8 chaIf you actually check the rest of the post most of what you are talking about is covered.
I certainly sit corrected on that part, however, the rest still stands to reason. If you send a monk and a fighter at a creature where they can both hit it on a roll of a 2, the monk will do more damage. That's a no brainer since he does more damage each attack.
But if you put them against something with likelier AC, the fighter will do a lot better, when you consider that "Ki focus" doesn't make a martial weapon into a special monk weapon. It merely transmits ki. However, instead of a +4 Ki Greatsword, you could of course, instead use a +5 quarterstaff but still get more attacks, but hit less accurately, and at reduced damage.
Then when you get larger groups of PCs and the AC is thrown even higher, you'll see the monk just can't hit at all.
All the while, you forgo your main class feature of unarmed attacks, so you can hit like a fighter at -4.
Simply put, a monk suffers in large groups from the hindered BAB and the increased cost of the amulet of mighty fists.
I certainly sit corrected on that part, however, the rest still stands to reason. If you send a monk and a fighter at a creature where they can both hit it on a roll of a 2, the monk will do more damage. That's a no brainer since he does more damage each attack.
Bull*sneeze*
A monk will have better dice (at high levels). Dice count nearly nothing at all for damage unless you have loads of them, and even then the average is meh. Bonus damage counts for lots more; and both players have the same chance to pump it. However a Fighter/Barbarian/Whatever is more likely to focus on that stat since they don't have to focus on so many others.
Unless you have great amounts of money and DM willing to let you snag a Belt of Magnificence, the monk's going to have to pick and choose which stats to boost.
I certainly sit corrected on that part, however, the rest still stands to reason. If you send a monk and a fighter at a creature where they can both hit it on a roll of a 2, the monk will do more damage. That's a no brainer since he does more damage each attack.Bull*sneeze*
A monk will have better dice (at high levels). Dice count nearly nothing at all for damage unless you have loads of them, and even then the average is meh. Bonus damage counts for lots more; and both players have the same chance to pump it. However a Fighter/Barbarian/Whatever is more likely to focus on that stat since they don't have to focus on so many others.
Unless you have great amounts of money and DM willing to let you snag a Belt of Magnificence, the monk's going to have to pick and choose which stats to boost.
And the stats to boost are STR and WIS.
STR does everything you need it too. Dex is actually a losing game for the Monk.
However while dice seem like a poor means of raising damage it all depends on how many you can get. If you go large as a monk and can score a monk's Robes then Vital strike turns your normal attack into an 8d8 hit, which translates into 36 damage on average before add ins.
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In posts before the ones above we had already clarified that the +4 'Ki' greatsword was included just to prove that it's not worth it for the monk.
In reality the monk only needs the following: Large Size, Monk's Belt and as many attacks as he can get. Ideally getting Improved Natural attack is great too, with Improved Natural and Large size you can clear the damage the fighter can do.
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Replacing the Greatsword with 3 Ioun stones is a great idea since they'll give competence bonuses to hit and damage (which stack with each other).
And the stats to boost are STR and WIS.
STR does everything you need it too. Dex is actually a losing game for the Monk.
Everything is a losing proposition for the monk. Because you're not going to convince anyone to use Dex as a dump stat and he also needs Con. On top of which, the fighter gets access to a variety of damage adding feats; barb gets free strength boosts, etc. And everyone can use combinations like Large size and strongarm bracers to get their damage dice up.
Everything is a losing proposition for the monk. Because you're not going to convince anyone to use Dex as a dump stat and he also needs Con. On top of which, the fighter gets access to a variety of damage adding feats; barb gets free strength boosts, etc. And everyone can use combinations like Large size and strongarm bracers to get their damage dice up.
And the stats to boost are STR and WIS.
STR does everything you need it too. Dex is actually a losing game for the Monk.
If the rumors of PF final monks being able to deal damage as normal when performing Combat Maneuvers is true, this will lessen the dependence on con and dex, although still, not many monks will like to lessen their chances of success with improved evasion.
Monks are already good against magic users, with their SR and improved evasion, and strong saves.
What will transforming them into Combat Maneuver Centered do? This will increase their survivability with going toe-to-toe against fighter types their own size, perhaps. Would armor check penalties work against CMD? The trade-off, of course, is the ability to add spikes to your armor, which will conversely increase CMD and enable you to deal damage back to the monk.
My non-battling armor-types don't leave home without their armor spikes +5, defending.
My non-battling armor-types don't leave home without their armor spikes +5, defending.
Don't you mean your "epic non-battling armor-types don't leave home without their armor spikes +5, defending" ?
After all, you're talking 36,200 gp spent on armor spikes. That's a lot of bling.
After you're done with your magical armor, magical shield, magical weapon of some kind, headband of intellect (etc.), ring of protection, cloak of resistance, ioun stones, staff, wands, rods of metamagic, ring of wizardry, robe of magi, etc., somewhere in there you still have room to drop 36,200 gp on armor spikes?
You're clearly not talking about any levels that most campaigns reach.