Keith Richards is undead isnt he?
One look at Michael Jackson is enough to prove this works.
I have not recieved my copy of the Bonus Bestiary yet
You can download it in .pdf form right here on the Paizo site. Free of charge. Help yourself to bestial goodness.
Me, I won't download it or buy it because I AM NOT IN THERE!
(or so I hear. Since I am not in there, I haven't even looked inside to see if I'm not in there. Really...)
but after reading the boards, i like the idea of undead getting a HP adjustment from their CHA...
Me too.
Does that mean that most intelligent undead come from sorcerers and bards? Guess that would make sense. Keith Richards is undead isnt he?
???
Keith Richards is certainly a bard. And quite charismatic. And maybe undead too.
But I don't get the connection between intelligent undead, HP adjustments, and charisma - why would a sorcerer or bard make smarter undead? They simply make undead. The undead have their own INT and CHA scores.
Are you drawing a connection betweent he CHA of the undead's creator and the INT of the undead?
Personally, I think Jerry Garcia is the penultimate undead bard example...
I think he meant that, if you're smart, you'd create (templated) undead from people with high CHA, and you'd make sure you had a high CHA stat if you yourself were going to make a phylactery and become a lich. Otherwise you'd be shooting yourself in the foot.
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Personally, I would really prefer wis or cha. My problem with cha is that it is the dex equivalent in mental stats. Wisdom makes moresense any way you look at it. Also cha in some cases, is just way way to good. Like an undead blackguard that uses cha for saves, many class abilities, and now hp too. All they need is str and cha now.
Way to many creatures get a cha boost (in 3.5 at least). Hardly any that can be pc's get wis, or not a big one. In fact wis is one of the hardest abilities to bump to rediculous levels, while dex and especially cha are among the easiest.
You're mentioned on the inside of the cover. That means you're mentioned even before page 1.Me, I won't download it or buy it because I AM NOT IN THERE!
(or so I hear. Since I am not in there, I haven't even looked inside to see if I'm not in there. Really...)
Nice try.
I'm the STAR! I will not settle for a paltry entry in an 8-point list.
Would Brad Pitt allow his starring role to be listed down in the credits next to the gaffer and the caterer?
I
Don't
Think
So
You know, these tiny bestiaries are no bigger than a Rat. According to my unclassified text in the Monster Manual, I can contain 256 of them in my belly.
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Hmmm, only 254 it seems. I forgot about that old withered hand and eye...
Personally, I would really prefer wis or cha. My problem with cha is that it is the dex equivalent in mental stats.
Really? I thought of Cha as the Strength of mental stats (Int is the mental dexterity.)
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You might be correct. Either way though, wis is the mental fortitude. Makes sense that it would be the physical fortitude as well for those that are not alive. Plus there are very, very few creatures that have below average wisdom, but not a huge amount that have super high wisdom (compaired to all other stats, cha in particular).
I think way way to many things are based off of cha already. Pretty much all spell-like and supernatural abilities except poison, disease, and most breath weapons, and some odd class features.
Me, I won't download it or buy it because I AM NOT IN THERE!
I used to argue with a friend of mine (who now works for WotC on 4th ed and miniatures) that wizards should have made a colossal Tarrasque fig. I'd happily plop down 75 bucks for one of those, nicely sculpted!
I would pose for the sculptor.
I probably wouldn't even bite him...
Now that Undead pretty much function just like any other monster class as you can crit them and sneak attack them, did they do anything with them that makes them scary anymore? Rogues and finesse fighters always had trouble against them due to the above but Clerics and Paladins were extra tough. They removed the former but I'm assuming that the latter is still in place. I'm hoping that they just beefed up undead so that they are tougher against everyone but was wondering if anyone knew anything about this. Or are they just not scary to go up against anymore?
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That is my main concern. In my opinion, undead should be one of the scarriest things for a party to face in general. Twice as much without some holy backing (cleric, paladin, etc. . .). DR just doesn't cut it past (about) level 3 (unless we are talking the good 3.0 DR).
I really hope they don't become just another monster but that's the way it seems. Like I said in the bonus beastiary thead, I don't see undead being a good challenge except for massive hordes (which is a very slow boring encounter, and way to expensive and not worth it for a undead controlling PC), or just a goon. Being suseptible to crits, good. There is no good reason that anything,undead, construct, whatever can't be hit by a lucky shot. (Particularly for undead from positive energy). Sneak attack though is to far, and just makes undead too weak.
That is my main concern. In my opinion, undead should be one of the scarriest things for a party to face in general. Twice as much without some holy backing (cleric, paladin, etc. . .). DR just doesn't cut it past (about) level 3 (unless we are talking the good 3.0 DR).
I really hope they don't become just another monster but that's the way it seems. Like I said in the bonus beastiary thead, I don't see undead being a good challenge except for massive hordes (which is a very slow boring encounter, and way to expensive and not worth it for a undead controlling PC), or just a goon. Being suseptible to crits, good. There is no good reason that anything,undead, construct, whatever can't be hit by a lucky shot. Sneak attack though is to far, and just makes undead too weak.
I'm not sure why undead should be so scary.
To us, on Earth, especially in Hollywood, undead are scary. But that's mainly because of two things:
1. Earthlings have a lot of mysticism and doubt and "faith without proof" regarding death and the afterlife and undead seem to violate all this mysticism in ways we can't understand, so we fear it.
2. Some earthlings actually believe such things as undead are more possible, more realistic, than orcs, dragons, or tarrasques.
In the D&D world, with clearly outlined deity pantheons and cleric with real power on every street corner, the mysticism angle is meaningless. Also, orcs, dragons, and the tarrasque can eat a D&D worlder just as easily as a zombie can.
So why should someone in D&D think a zombie is more scary or creepy than an ogre? Zombies are slow, easy to avoid, and you only have to run to the nearest church to find a guy who can destroy them with a word. But ogres are much faster, harder to avoid, and they might eat the cleric in the church right after eating you.
Liches are very scary. They never die, they have lots of spells and can do all kinds of scary magical stuff to kill you. Or worse. But so can that evil archmage rumored to live up in the hills, and so can a big old slimy aboleth, and so can an illithid, etc.
Some undead, like liches, come with supernatural fear. They are definitely scary. But some monsters, like dragons, have the same supernatural fear and are equally scary.
I don't really see any reason for a D&D undead to be any more or less scary than any other D&D monster.
On the othre hand, they are a full-blown creature type, so I definitely want them to have features that make them different and intersting to use and that set them apart from other non-undead monsters.
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I think mostly because they are dead. How do you kill something that's already dead, that wants to kill you and every other living thing just so that it can feel the warmth of your blood for a few seconds, or steal your life essence so it can exist for 1 more day, or just because it hates you for being alive and it isn't.
I'm not talking about fear effects so much as that a party should want to avoid fighting undead if they possibly can. Undead are unnatural abominations that are against all the that is right and sacred in the world (by their very nature and definition). Unholy mockeries of life, made, purposefully made to cause more evil and corruption in the world and for purely selfish reasons. Or sometimes by good people either tricked or corrupted into something they know is wrong.
At least a demon is born evil. They can't really help it. Mindflayers and the like may be evil, but they typically stay to themselves and do their little cult thing in small doses, usually not really doing much real evil or harm.
Undead haunt graveyards for take both the living and dead. Sure, it is all a matter of the DM's opinion on how they handle all their creatures, but if undead are going to be weak, why even have them in the beastiary? Sure I could be wrong and it might all work out. I hope it does when the book comes out.
Creative Director
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Now that Undead pretty much function just like any other monster class as you can crit them and sneak attack them, did they do anything with them that makes them scary anymore? Rogues and finesse fighters always had trouble against them due to the above but Clerics and Paladins were extra tough. They removed the former but I'm assuming that the latter is still in place. I'm hoping that they just beefed up undead so that they are tougher against everyone but was wondering if anyone knew anything about this. Or are they just not scary to go up against anymore?
Well... to be honest, the the thing that should make undead scary isn't game mechanics as much as it is flavor. I mean... an undead creature that has a lot of hit points or high DR is mechanically very similar to a golem or a robot. It's mostly/all in the description, the mood, and the flavor.
Actually... I take that partially back. Undead still have a lot of really ruinous special attacks, be they nearly incurable diseases, level draining, ability draining, possession, or transformation into undead. All of those can help make them scary.
But in the end, it's the flavor and the presentation where the fear has to come from. Otherwise, we'd just give every undead a fear aura and call it good.
With the nerf of the so called save-or-suck spells and the addition of crits and sneak attacks on Undead, I don't see how they will be tough anymore without a huge power boost. I have a bad feeling that Necromancers everywhere will be looking out over their undead hoards reminiscing about the good ol' days. :)
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That is soemwhat true, but if the mechanics don't support it flavor is nothing but bad commedy. That is just the fact of it.
It's more than class nerfs. It is also that many special attacks from undead in particular are more a hassle to players than something their characters fear. But a lot of those special attacks, from what I understand are much less potent and permanent. Ability drain is now damage only unless a crit, save or dies are minor penulties.
Keith Richards is undead isnt he?One look at Michael Jackson is enough to prove this works.
Whoops!
Great paizoians, just great. You bring up Micheal Jackson's undead status and some greater god decides to revoke it. Are you happy now? He's been promoted to full dead.
All this Keith Richards and Michael Jacson (note: not 'MJ' - that's Michael Jordan) and nobody is running with Jerry Garcia for undead status...
Really?
Micheal Jacson is dead?
Micheal Jacson is dead?
Yeah, his CHA finally fell all the way down to zero.
On a more serious note, yeah, he actually died today. Crazy.
It wasn't me -- I swear.
Keith Richards is undead isnt he?One look at Michael Jackson is enough to prove this works.
It wasn't me -- I swear.
Wow dude. Just wow.
Tam
I know. I had a moment like that today myself. After Ed McMahon and Farah Fawcett passed on this week, I mentioned at work the old wive's tale "Always happens in threes." A couple hours later the third one hit.
I felt a little guilty, then I remembered I'm not DMing the real world...
I know. I had a moment like that today myself. After Ed McMahon and Farah Fawcett passed on this week, I mentioned at work the old wive's tale "Always happens in threes." A couple hours later the third one hit.
I felt a little guilty, then I remembered I'm not DMing the real world...
Well, you can stop feeling guilty now. Billy Mays is on his way to the Blessed Fields of Elysium as well. Man, I remember when the worst uncurable disease at the time (aids) couldn't take down a celebrity. Now they're dropping off like flies at age 50. What the heck is going on here?
Undead concerns
Well, they still have all those negative energy effects, occasional etherealness and the ability to turn all your loved ones into monsters. Fairly scary.
@DM_B
Man, I'll tell you why zombies are scary in the real world. It's because they ARE real. Dawn of the Dead was a documentary. Not the sensationalist remake, the original. It happened in Australia in like '72. There's constantly something horrible happening in Australia, it's just that no one notices; because it's Australia.
[EDIT] New Zealand notices, but they're afraid to say anything.
Great paizoians, just great. You bring up Micheal Jackson's undead status and some greater god decides to revoke it. Are you happy now? He's been promoted to full dead.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA