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Let's face it. Almost nobody uses metamagic feats. Those who do use them almost always use them very sparsely for situational reasons.
I've tried many things over the last decade to make Metamagic work. By work, I mean make it appealing to all casters, all casting classes, without making it overpowered.
I want each and every spellcaster to be able to say "Hey, I just gained a feat. These Metamagic feats all look really good. But, so do some of the other feats. They're all good. So many choices, what shall I do."
Currently, I don't think Metamagic achieves this goal. Most casters say "Hey, I just gained a feat. I certainly don't want any of that metamagic, so let's find something that's actually useful for me to acquire instead."
Not all. But most.
So I have here a houserule. It is a little bit complex, but then so is metmagic in general. It uses rules for Concentration (I have updated the description to be consistent with the new rule presented in the Cleric preview) and for Spellcraft, so knowing those rules will help understand the metamagic houserule.
It's quite long, but half of the length are 8 examples I provide at the end that demonstrate various possibilities. Because it is so long, I've put it in a spoiler.
Metamagic
First, metamagic can always be applied as per the Core rules. But this is now an optional use for metamagic as there is a new way to apply metamagic.
Metmagic can be applied spontaneously. This means the spells are not prepared in advance, and they don’t take up a higher level slot. Thus, a spontaneous Maximized Fireball still just uses a 3rd level slot.
Here’s how it works:
First, spontaneously applying the metamagic, whatever it is, requires a move action. This move action works just like casting a spell. There are gestures, incantations, and an effort of concentration, and it provokes attacks of opportunity that can potentially disrupt the metamagic just like spellcasting does. Spellcasters can choose to Cast Defensively to avoid attacks of opportunity during this preparation action, in which case the usual Concentration check for casting defensively is required at DC 15 + 2x the adjusted level of the spell.
At the end of the metamagic move action, if the metamagic was not disrupted, the spellcaster needs to make a Spellcraft check at DC = 15 + adjusted level of the spell, +1 per metamagic feat applied to the spell. So, a Maximized Fireball has an adjusted level of 6, so the DC is 22 (15 +6 +1). A Silent (+1) Still (+1) Maximized (+3) Empowered (+2) Fireball has an adjusted level of 10, so the DC is 29 (15 +10 +4).
Note that it is possible to use metamagic to raise a spell beyond your capacity. So a 7th level mage who can only cast spells up to 4th level could still Maximize a Fireball, even though he cannot actually cast 6th level spells yet. If the adjusted level of a spell is higher than the highest level spell that spellcaster can normally cast, add a cumulative +5 to the Spellcraft DC for each level over the spellcaster’s maximum spell level (+5 for one level, +10 for the next level, and so on). So, our 7th level mage would add +15 to his DC because his Maximized Fireball is 2 spell levels higher than the maximum spell level he can normally cast. Does this make it impossible? A 7th level mage might have 7 ranks in Spellcraft, +3 for Class Skill, might have +6 for Skill Focus (Spellcraft), and might have as much as +6 from his ability score modifier, for a total of about +22 to the roll, thus requiring only a 15 or higher to successfully Maximize that Fireball (the DC is 37: 15 + 6 + 1 + 15).
This all happens during the move action, and all checks (Concentration and/or Spellcraft) are made at the end of the move action.
If the metamagic move action was successful, you still have your standard action to cast the spell with all the metamagic benefits applied.
If the metamagic move action was unsuccessful, either because the metamagic was disrupted, or there is a failed Concentration check to apply the metamagic defensively, or a failed Spellcraft check to apply the metamagic, then the metamagic has failed but, because the spellcaster has not yet started casting the actual spell, the spell has not failed and is not lost or disrupted. In this case, the caster can carry on with whatever standard action he wants to take this round, including casting the same spell or a different spell (but with no metamagic), or he could attack, move, or whatever he might want to do with his standard action.
If the spell takes more than one standard action to cast, you can either start now, or wait until the beginning of your next round. You can only move while still in the process of applying a successful metamagic to a spell; you cannot take any actions that involve spellcasting, attacking, or using any skills – doing any of this causes the metamagic to fail. If you take any damage while waiting to apply your successful metamagic, you need to make a Concentration check with the usual DC (15 + damage taken) for taking damage during spellcasting – failure means the metamagic fails.
Note that Quicken Spell (cast spell as a free action) and Efficient Spell (cast spell as a move action) both work a little differently. They can both be used spontaneously as described above, but it is a bit riskier since the metamagic happens at the same time as the spell, so if the Spellcraft check fails, or the metamagic is disrupted by anything, then the spell is also disrupted and lost, but the benefit of not using a move action to apply the metamagic is a huge benefit.
Some examples:
Albert is a level 12 wizard. He wants to Maximize his Fireball. He is standing somewhere safe so nothing will get an AoO. He spends his move action to apply the Maximize, then rolls a Spellcraft check of DC 22. He succeeds, so on his standard action, he casts his Maximized Fireball.
Bill is a level 12 wizard. He wants to Maximize his Fireball. He is standing somewhere safe so nothing will get an AoO. He spends his move action to apply the Maximize, then rolls a Spellcraft check of DC 22. He fails this roll, so he loses the Maximize. On his standard action, he can cast a normal Fireball, or cast something else, or move, or do whatever he wants.
Charles is a level 12 wizard. He wants to Maximize his Fireball. He is standing in a battle next to a bad guy who will get an AoO. He spends his move action to apply the Maximize but applies it defensively. He needs to make a concentration check of DC 27 to cast defensively or he will fail the Maximize. He makes it, then rolls a Spellcraft check of DC 22 to apply the metamagic. He succeeds, so on his standard action, he casts his Maximized Fireball (he might want to cast it defensively, since he’s still next to the bad guy, and you never know who has Combat Reflexes).
David is a level 12 wizard. He wants to Maximize his Fireball. He is standing in a battle next to a bad guy who will get an AoO. He spends his move action to apply the Maximize but applies it defensively. He needs to make a concentration check of DC 27 or he will fail the Maximize. He rolls a 5, which fails, so he loses the Maximize. On his standard action, he can cast a normal Fireball (might want to cast it defensively since he’s still next to the bad guy, and you never know who has Combat Reflexes), or cast something else, or move, or do whatever he wants.
Edward is a level 12 wizard. He wants to Maximize his Fireball. He is standing in a battle next to a bad guy who will get an AoO. He spends his move action to apply the Maximize but he believes the bad guy will miss him, so he doesn’t apply it defensively. As he starts the Maximize, the bad guy hits him for 13 points of damage. Now he needs to make a concentration check of DC 28 or the Maximize is disrupted by the damage he took. If he fails he loses the Maximize but still has a standard action to do whatever he wants. If he succeeds, he still needs to roll a Spellcraft check of DC 22. If he fails that, he loses the Maximize but still has a standard action to do whatever he wants. If he succeeds, he can use his standard action to cast his Maximized Fireball.
Fred is a level 8 wizard. He wants to Maximize his Fireball. All the same situations that applied to Albert, Bill, Charles, David, and Edward also apply to Fred, but when Fred needs to make the Spellcraft check to apply the Maximize, his DC is 37 because a Maximized Fireball is a level 6 spell and Fred can only cast level 4 spells, so he must add a cumulative +5 for each level the Maximized Fireball exceeds his highest level spell (+5 for one level, +10 for the next level, and so on).
Gary is a level 12 wizard. He wants to Quicken his Fireball to cast it as a swift action. He does not need to worry about AoO since casting a Quickened spell never provokes an AoO. He still needs to make his Spellcraft check. Since a Quickened Fireball is a level 7 spell and Gary can only cast level 6 spells, the DC for the Spellcraft check is 28 (15 +7 +1 +5). If he fails this Spellcraft check, he loses the Fireball spell.
Harry is a level 20 wizard. He wants to cast a Maximized (+3) Empowered (+2) Still (+1) Fireball. This makes it a level 9 spell. All the same situations that applied to Albert, Bill, Charles, David, and Edward also apply to Harry. Assuming he doesn’t fail a concentration check or have his metamagic disrupted, he will need to make a Spellcraft check at DC 27 (15 +9 +3). If this succeeds, he can cast his Fireball for 90 HP damage. Alternatively, he can choose to also Enlarge it to level 10. This raises the DC to 34 (15 +10 +4 +5) but Harry should have no problem making that roll. Now the Enlarged Maximized Empowered Still Fireball has 2x the range.
I can say, having worked out the math and devised the rule, that I would use this rule as both a player and as a DM. To me, this is balanced on all both sides of the DM screen.
My group is using this in playtest mode right now, though we just started and I don't have any playtest data yet.
I'm inviting the community at large to review and share your thoughts. Even better, give it a playtest and let me know how it works out at the game table.
Thanks,
Blake
I have the same experience with no one using these feats.
My houserule method is (I think a variation of an unearthed arcana rule) is that if you have the feat you may apply it 2/day to any spell you can cast PROVIDED that by applying it it does not become equivalent in level to a spell above the spell level you have acceess to. It takes no extra time- even if you are a sorcerer etc.
So a 9th level wizard character with can quicken a 1st level spell (as to do so it equates to a 5th level spell which they can cast), maximise a 2nd level spell empower a 3rd level spell or extend a 4th level spell.
If you take the feat more than once each additional time adds 1/day you can apply it.
In addition you can use it the same as the rules (should you ever want to).
BTW I reduce metamagic rod use to 2/day as well - and yet still everyone buys them. This shows to me that my reduction is not a nerf.
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You two live in a very strange world then, for I and anyone I've seen playing a spell caster indeed uses meta-magic feats.
My sorcerer especially used meta-magic feats since I could apply them on the fly. I wonder if you guys are mixing up the full-round action time to cast a meta-magic spell with a 1 round casting time spell as I've seen done in the past.
Nothing quite says loving like an Energy Substitution: Electricity, Sculpted, Empowered, Born of Three Thunders Fireball.
I used Sculpt Spell and Empower Spell quite often and I know there are a very significant portion of the spell casting community who use metamagic feats. Sure some are more useful then others at given times, but that's true for a lot of the feats that exist. Extend, Persistant, Quicken, Empower, Maximize, The Sudden Variants, Silence, Still, etc are all quite a useful tool in the belt of a spell caster.
Mmmm.... I think your house-rule is too complicated.
One *small* change I've played with doesn't attempt such a large change,
but simply increases the "value" of Metamagic in two (well, 1 1/2) small ways:
Extend, Maximize, and all other Metamagics EXCEPT Quicken also raise the DC of the Spell, effectively also including the Heighten Spell effect in their Spell Level Adjustment. Given the Caster has invested in the Feats in question, using the higher DC of the Spell Level whose slots you're using up doesn't really seem overpowering. The basic concept of the Metamagic Spell Level Adjustment seems to assume that the effect of the Metamagic is "equivalent" to the higher power of their Spell Level equivalents - not having the same DC as their Spell Level equivalents doesn't seem to match this rationale: Why not just research a "real" higher level Spell whose effect matches the Metamagicked lower-level Spell (but has the Spell Level-appropriate DC)?
I exclude Quicken Spell because it's clearly a game-changing effect and of course the Caster is able to get off ANOTHER high level/DC spell of their choice along with the Quickened Spell. Quicken is probably the one Metamagic that nobody needs incentives to use. Not EVERY Caster player is using Quicken, but it's not a situation where the ability needs any "sweetening", IMHO.
All of my builds have them, and I do see them, used even if it is sparingly. I will also add that I would actually be less inclined to use them if I had to make a concentration check because it might result in a wasted spell.
You two live in a very strange world then, for I and anyone I've seen playing a spell caster indeed uses meta-magic feats.
My sorcerer especially used meta-magic feats since I could apply them on the fly. I wonder if you guys are mixing up the full-round action time to cast a meta-magic spell with a 1 round casting time spell as I've seen done in the past.
Nothing quite says loving like an Energy Substitution: Electricity, Sculpted, Empowered, Born of Three Thunders Fireball.
I used Sculpt Spell and Empower Spell quite often and I know there are a very significant portion of the spell casting community who use metamagic feats. Sure some are more useful then others at given times, but that's true for a lot of the feats that exist. Extend, Persistant, Quicken, Empower, Maximize, The Sudden Variants, Silence, Still, etc are all quite a useful tool in the belt of a spell caster.
It is odd how often reading on this board people playing the same game with fairly similar rules (we only use phb feats due to experience with broken splatbook feats) have such radically different experiences with the game. My experience concurs with the OP- though I imagine a high level sorcerer would benefit from the feats as written given that they do not need to choose their use of the feat beforehand and they have lots of spells to throw around.
All of my builds have them, and I do see them, used even if it is sparingly.
That's what I'm trying to eliminate. Most good feats are not used sparingly. Dodge, Tougness, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Precise Shot, and so many others, are used over and over and over every day, many times every combat in most cases.
Not true of Metamagic feats. Even among the few players I've seen try to use them, only a few spells on their list are prepared with metamagic.
Sorcerers and bards get the best benefit, but I'm trying to get all classes to benefit equally from a largely underutilized group of feats.
I will also add that I would actually be less inclined to use them if I had to make a concentration check because it might result in a wasted spell.
I know my post was extremely long. But evidently I didn't make it clear enough that there is no wasted spell here.
During the move round, there is ONLY a spellcraft check. Make it, you apply the metamagic. Fail it, you don't apply any metamagic. This action in the move round can be interrupted, and it provokes AoOs, just like spellcasting does. So if you wish to cast defensively to avoid an AoO, there is a concentration check. Likewise, if you take damage, there is a concentration check. If any of these checks fail, you cannot apply metamagic this round, but no spell has been lost.
But after all that, you still have your standard action. If you succeeded with the metamagic, you can use your standard action to cast the enhanced spell. If you failed with your metamagic, you can still cast the spell without metamagic, or you can do anything else that you could legally do in a standard action.
Mmmm.... I think your house-rule is too complicated.
Fair enough, thanks for the input. But it would really help me to know how it is too complicated.
Was it hard to understand? Was one part of it too confusing? Was it too many dice to roll? Or when you say too complicated, are you referring to it being too much to remember in the heat of battle?
I hate to ask, but could you simply mean the post was so long that it looked complicated and you didn't want to read it all the way? It's a fair assessment if that's the case - but it would help me to know specifically what your post means.
Especially if your reasoning can help me improve the rule.
Let me add a little clarificatin to simplify that big huge post (big and bold because it belongs in the original post but it's too late).
That's it, in a nutshell. All the rest is just explaining how the die rolling works.
Does that help make it less complicated? I probably should have put a summary like this in the original post.
You two live in a very strange world then, for I and anyone I've seen playing a spell caster indeed uses meta-magic feats.
Uses, barely uses, or under-utilizes?
My sorcerer especially used meta-magic feats since I could apply them on the fly.
Yes, sorcerers and bards get the best benefit from metamagic. My houserule restores some balance there so all classes can enjoy metamagic equally.
I wonder if you guys are mixing up the full-round action time to cast a meta-magic spell with a 1 round casting time spell as I've seen done in the past.
Nope, crystal clear to me.
Nothing quite says loving like an Energy Substitution: Electricity, Sculpted, Empowered, Born of Three Thunders Fireball.
Except the Meteor Swarm you put in the same slot that doex 2x as much damage to more targets.
I never meant to imply that metamagic doesn't do what it says it does. It's just that generally, for almost any combo of spell+metamagic, there is some other spell of the same adjusted level you could put in that slot that will do a better job. Not always. I have already said there are situational uses. I just find those infrequent situations to be insufficient justification to use a feat for a trick I will rarely if ever use.
In any case, while everything you've said is potentially valid, and may make for a lively discussion on some other thread, I'd rather stick to the discussion of the houserule I proposed rather than get sidetracked into discussing the validity of our favorite metamagic combos.
Yeah, well, all of the above :-)
(i.e. complicated to think about/read, complication of extra roll/associated calculations when used)
But ignoring that: I don't like what it does. It's escalating Caster Classes power way beyond the assumption of Vancian Casting and how Metamagic fits into that.
To explain, I'll simplify the situation.
Assume (using your proposed system) that you pass the check everytime (statistically possible). Assuming you used the maximum amount of Metamagic possible (up to Effective Spell Level = Max) you have now EVERY SINGLE spell as the equivalent of a 9th level spell (or whatever is your max spell level). Instead of 6/6/5/4/3 (ex), you have 0/0/0/0/24 (equivalent)*.
Sure, you might not pass the check EVERY time if you're trying to load up to your max spell level equivalent (of course, always adding just a LITTLE bit can easily become auto-pass), but even if the effect isn't THAT large, it IS power inflation.
...That's my take anyways. What's YOUR take on my suggestion?
By removing some of the 'negatives' of Metamagic, I think it lets the 'postives' stand out better on their own merits, without problematic power-inflation over the Vancian Casting base assumptions. (i.e. using Spell Points as a conceptual guide, adding up all spells multiplied by spell level = total spell power, which your proposal would seem to inescapably inflate to one degree or another.)
* The basic concept behind Metamagic seems to work best assuming that these Metamagic effects DO make lower level spells "equivalent" to the higher Spell Levels. *IF* you don't think the Spell Level Adjustment for specific Metamagics ISN'T equivalent to the actual higher level spells, THE ADJUSTMENT ITSELF should be changed to a more appropriate number, thus still maintaining consistency with the base-line Vancian power level.
This issue is really related to when people were debating how high level Casters should be able to have higher DCs for their low level spells, and many proposed various DC bonuses ON TOP of the standard assumptions. If you're familiar with UA Spellpoints, there IS a way to cast ALL spells at high DCs, but it means you will cast LESS SPELLS (under that system) than if you followed the ASSUMPTIONS of the Vancian system by which you're NOT always using your "max power", but are letting out little "dribbles" (OK, enough of that metafor). I think it's obvious how the same issue applies in this topic also.
Yeah, well, all of the above :-)
(i.e. complicated to think about/read, complication of extra roll/associated calculations when used)But ignoring that: I don't like what it does. It's escalating Caster Classes power way beyond the assumption of Vancian Casting and how Metamagic fits into that.
To explain, I'll simplify the situation.
Assume (using your proposed system) that you pass the check everytime (statistically possible). Assuming you used the maximum amount of Metamagic possible (up to Effective Spell Level = Max) you have now EVERY SINGLE spell as the equivalent of a 9th level spell (or whatever is your max spell level).
Sure, you might not pass the check EVERY time if you're trying to load up to your max spell level equivalent (of course, always adding just a LITTLE bit can easily become auto-pass), but even if the effect isn't THAT large, it IS power inflation.
Excellent point.
In fact, that's pretty much what I was trying to achieve.
What this all boils down to is that no caster really needs their lowest spell levels. That's where they prepare trash spells. Chances are, for example, that a 12th level caster has wands, staves, and scrolls that will be far more effective than tossing out some first/second level junk in an encounter.
My explanation:
Or the party just leaves and rests, or teleports home, or whatever.
And before anyone says it, that's not because those casters were needlessly squandering their spells going nova in earlier encounters. I've seen that too, but I usually train them quite quickly not to do that.
Whenever it happens, at some point in the adventuring day the casters ae wiped out. Could be after 1 encounter, could be after 10 encounters - should be after about 4 encounters. In many cases, wiped doesn't mean "out of every spell possible" but it usually means "Out of the good stuff, just the crappy stuff left".
My houserule lets them put those trash spells to use. Instead of maximizing a magic missile into a 4th level slot (what a waste of a perfectly good slot), now the mage can just maximize it for free (Spellcraft roll required).
Is that overpowered? I don't know, that's part of the feedback I wanted to get.
As I see it, he's at least 7th level. He could cast his level 1 Magic Missile for 4 missiles that do 8-20 HP total damage (an average of 14 HP) and burn a level 1 slot (per the RAW). Or per my houserule, he can burn that same level 1 slot and do 20 HP damage guaranteed. Against a 7th level encounter, I don't see that as overpowered. Hence the rule.
First off I'd like to say that...I use metamagic a lot as a caster. Not all of them, some are utter garbage, but I use Extend, Empower and Quicken regularly. That having been said, I don't see a problem with this though it does involve a lot of math which could potentially slow things down. Doesn't have to, just saying potentially, and I like that it makes Spellcraft more useful. Though I'd almost say this way of applying metamagic should be a 1 round casting time, being that it is that more involved, and not using a higher level slot is a pretty mondo use of a skill.
Really this reminds me of what the 3.5 (Players Guide to Faerun) Incantatrix could do, basically make an ungodly spellcraft check and add metamagic on the fly. Eventually they could even add them to Wands (though not quicken).
I also want to say that the poster who said Heighten shouldn't be a feat is right on.
My players have just brought this to my attention. Their concern for taking metamagic feats is that the DC's are just too low for them to push a feat and then just have the BBEG's make their saves anyway.
I'm wondering about maybe doing something along the lines of how powerful the metamagic feat is to add to the DC.
For example:
Feat that makes spell one level higher +1d4 DC
Two levels higher +1d6
Three 1d8
Four 1d10.
Thoughts??
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I'm wondering about maybe doing something along the lines of how powerful the metamagic feat is to add to the DC.
For simplicity, perhaps you could assume that *all* metamagic feats counted as a Heighten spell automatically. If you Empower a Scorching Ray, it counts as a 4th level spell for DC purposes.
Does this kill Heighten Spell and take it's stuff? Yeah, it does, but I've always thought that a spellcaster should be able to prepare a lower level spell in a higher level slot, *if he wants to* without any sort of Feat requirement.
I'm not sure what level you've been playing at but in the higher level games I've played in the 1st-3rd level spells are definitely not garbage spells. Wands have low DCs and horrible durations and horrid damage. Magic Missile, Grease, Hideous Laughter, Color spray, Shield, plus many more low level spells are pretty darned good when used against the right targets, in particular if your caster uses feats like Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus to bump the DCs.
I think the idea of increasing the DC of spells when you cast meta version is a good idea and also agree that it's overkill with quicken. Some good examples of every day meta-magic that makes sense:
- Silent Dimension Door or Silent Still Dimension Door... I've wanted both of these recently
- Silent Dispel Magic is equally useful
- Still anything to cast while in armor without Arcane Spell failure
- Extended Summons at lower levels
- Extended Shield at higher levels lasts most of the day
- Extended Rope trick at 5-8th level lets you sleep through the night
- Empowered Scorching Ray against any sort of ice creature
- Empowered Magic Missile is a great spell of last resort which damages nearly everything
- Energy Substitution (I really wish this was core) is an amazing feat for sorcerer and blasters.
Often the effect you want is not some higher level spell but an existing spell with a meta-effect. Cone of Cold is not the same as shaped fireball, silent still dimension door is not the same as teleport. Even if you only use those feats once per day or in some cases (silent/ still) in an emergency it makes your wizard or sorcerer that much more versatile. A wizard who can prepare spells for a specific encounter in advance becomes much deadlier. Think about a wizard with empowered scorching ray versus a white dragon or winter wolves.
I agree that meta-magic is far from perfect but I think the level bump is a decent way of balancing the benefits of it and superior to your proposed house rule. I do think there are some other meta-magic options which are more reasonable (in no particular order):
- Meta feats are usable a fixed number of times per day, similar to the rods.
- Wizards can burn a higher level spell to use a meta versin of a memorized spell (Burn a 5th level spell to cast silent dimension door)
- Wizards don't take meta feats, instead they can learn individual spells with the meta-effect pre-applied, for example a wizard would learn dimension door and silent dimension door as separate spells.
- Use spell points and allow wizards to apply meta magic to memorized spells (and burning the appropriate number of spell points).
I generally feel plenty of metamagic gets used already, but there are some feats (still and silent) that *are* very limited in application for prepared casters (silent dispel magic, stilled freedom of movements, etc.)
If you're willing to accept that this option is essentially a total freebie increase in casting power (rarely above normal limits, but still an increase), then I think the actual system works fine. It adds an action type, with one roll and an easy to pre-calculate DC. It might add a second roll for concentrating - which is now actually somewhat difficult.
Two FYI's:
I'm wondering about maybe doing something along the lines of how powerful the metamagic feat is to add to the DC.
For example:
Feat that makes spell one level higher +1d4 DC
Two levels higher +1d6
Three 1d8
Four 1d10.Thoughts??
Adding a variable like this would be a superb enhancement. The biggest "problem" with this house rule is that instead of mimicing a wizard "struggling with vast arcane powers", you can very carefully calculate exactly what you can do with no chance (or low chance) of failure.
Edit:
If I were wanting to do something like this, to increase the use of metamagic, I'd probably look to the good old "open spell slots" concept. Normally you can leave spell slots open, to prepare later in the day. Rarely does anyone actually do so.
I would consider using a rule that you can 'bump' a prepared spell up into an empty slot, with a spellcraft check (a bit easier than yours maybe). So if you left a 6th level slot free and had a fireball memorized, you could work some spellcraft magic and cast the fireball maximized out of the 6th level slot instead. That would then leave the lower slot free btw.
If a particular DM's issue with metamagic is low-usage, not low-power, I think this would help.
Btw Ogre, no need to Still a Dimension Door - V only.
I generally feel plenty of metamagic gets used already, but there are some feats (still and silent) that *are* very limited in application for prepared casters (silent dispel magic, stilled freedom of movements, etc.)
Having silent and stilled versions of the feat require no bump in level but a spellcraft check seems reasonable. Most other meta feats should probably stick with the current system though.
If I were wanting to do something like this, to increase the use of metamagic, I'd probably look to the good old "open spell slots" concept. Normally you can leave spell slots open, to prepare later in the day. Rarely does anyone actually do so.
I would consider using a rule that you can 'bump' a prepared spell up into an empty slot, with a spellcraft check (a bit easier than yours maybe). So if you left a 6th level slot free and had a fireball memorized, you could work some spellcraft magic and cast the fireball maximized out of the 6th level slot instead. That would then leave the lower slot free btw.
This is also a reasonable alternate to get folks using meta magic.
Very interesting. I think I shall play around with this system you've presented and see if I like how it works. This articulates fairly well an idea that has been floating about in my mind for quite some time. Now I have been handed a framework upon which the idea may hang. Thank you!
...So I have here a houserule. ...
Personally, I think it's a great idea. I'd certainly have to introduce it with a 'playtesting may make me back out of this' caveat, but as a general concept, it fits with what I've always wanted metamagic to be. I for one agree with the idea that it's rarely used--especially still/silent, which seems to be the most likely candidates for needing metamagic on the fly.
One *small* change I've played with doesn't attempt such a large change, but simply increases the "value" of Metamagic in two (well, 1 1/2) small ways:
This idea has merit as well, and I very well may introduce the 'free' Heighten idea.
Let's face it. Almost nobody uses metamagic feats. Those who do use them almost always use them very sparsely for situational reasons.
You lost me here. In my experience, sorcerers love metamagic feats!
(Wizards not so much, except for Extend and Quicken maybe.)
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Uses, barely uses, or under-utilizes?
Uses, like uses a lot. Remember that part of being a good memorization spell caster is preparation, you shouldn't be rewarding your players for being lazy and not trying to learn more about the situations they'll be facing with the tools they have. Otherwise your on the road to 4th edition.
Except the Meteor Swarm you put in the same slot that doex 2x as much damage to more targets.
For the record my ridiculous sculpted sonic booming fireball is only a 6th level spell. +1 for Sculpting and +2 for Empowering, the energy stuff doesn't add to it's level.
Also I disagree that a spell of similar nature at that level would be better due to my opinion that higher level spells are better used for effect spells then mindless damage spells. Why take Meteor Strike when you've got access to spells like Time Stop or Shapechange?
I'm just trying to point out that I believe it's your group, so making house rules about using meta-magic probably isn't going to get people to use them anymore. I don't think they're bad house rules, just not a solution that addresses the real problem.
By the way, I've been looking at Arcana Evolved and I kind of like their metamagic system:
- There's a single feat that allows you to (effectively) use either Still Spell, Silent Spell, Empower Spell, Widen Spell, Extend Spell and Enlarge Spell
- Instead of increasing the spell level, it takes two spell slots (of the normal level) to cast
It sounds nifty to me. The spell templates are a nice alternative to metamagic feats, too.
Uses, barely uses, or under-utilizes?Uses, like uses a lot.
Sweet.
Remember that part of being a good memorization spell caster is preparation, you shouldn't be rewarding your players for being lazy and not trying to learn more about the situations they'll be facing with the tools they have. Otherwise your on the road to 4th edition.
I'm not sure this is relevent. IME most spellcasers don't take these feats because they're just too situational and won't get used enough, so when you say "with the tools they have", well, they don't have these tools because they are reluctant to invest much (or any) of their character build into stuff they will rarely use.
Except the Meteor Swarm you put in the same slot that doex 2x as much damage to more targets.For the record my ridiculous sculpted sonic booming fireball is only a 6th level spell. +1 for Sculpting and +2 for Empowering, the energy stuff doesn't add to it's level.
Fair enough. I'm not too familiar with many of those feats, and for years we have played with houserules that changed many level adjustments, so I was guessing.
Still, I would wager that Chain Lightning has the potential to do very similar damage without requiring you to acquire 4 feats to do it, and the save DC would be higher by 3.
Also I disagree that a spell of similar nature at that level would be better due to my opinion that higher level spells are better used for effect spells then mindless damage spells. Why take Meteor Strike when you've got access to spells like Time Stop or Shapechange?
Agreed but mostly irrelevent. You started with fireball, I simply stayed in the same type of spell - evocation damage.
You wouldn't want to Empower Shapechange, but you might want to Extend it. So what? The houserule I propose is about options to make metamagic more desirable to all classes, regardless of spell choices those classes make.
I'm just trying to point out that I believe it's your group, so making house rules about using meta-magic probably isn't going to get people to use them anymore.
Maybe. That could be a valid point. But I'm talking about many groups over about a decade of 3.x campaigns. And other posters on the thread have seen the same, so it's not just one group.
But you're right. If it's just a group preference to not use them, then even flavoring them like pizza may not get them any more use.
So thanks for this input, it may be relevent. So far, our proposed houserule (that goes into effect this coming weekend) is exciting the players to use metamagic and exciting the DM to use metamagic against us, so your point may be off the mark. Time will tell.
Me, I know for a fact that many players in my circle of friends have actually done the math. Almost every time they've contemplated "ooh, using this metamagic feat with that spell would be cool!" they find that either there is another spell they can put in that slot that is equally, or equivalently, cool, so no need to use the feat at all, or the combo really would be cool but it would be so situational that they'd almost never use it, which makes it a questionable choice to select the feat in the first place.
Like I've said, there are exceptions to that. But even then, these feats are often boiling down to "OK, if I take this feat, then I need that spell to make it useful, so this combo is cool, but otherwise it's a limited option at best."
That's what I'm trying to remedy. And I know that sorcerers have a different experience. They're the king of metamagic, no doubt about it. I jut want the other classes to get good use of the feats too.
Let's face it. Almost nobody uses metamagic feats. Those who do use them almost always use them very sparsely for situational reasons.You lost me here. In my experience, sorcerers love metamagic feats!
(Wizards not so much, except for Extend and Quicken maybe.)
Yeah, sorcerers are metamagic kings, I completely concur.
I'm trying to spread that love to the rest of the classes, too.
By the way, I've been looking at Arcana Evolved and I kind of like their metamagic system:
- There's a single feat that allows you to (effectively) use either Still Spell, Silent Spell, Empower Spell, Widen Spell, Extend Spell and Enlarge Spell
- Instead of increasing the spell level, it takes two spell slots (of the normal level) to cast
It sounds nifty to me. The spell templates are a nice alternative to metamagic feats, too.
I've seen that too. Thanks for bringing it up.
My concern with that system, or many others like it (such as using metamagic on the fly but burning a second spell to "pay the cost of the metamagic"), is that this reduces the number of spells the caster can cast this day - the more he uses his metamagic, the faster he runs out of spells.
I'm disinclined to deprive spellcasters of their resources at a rate faster than normal gameplay uses them up, so I'm not a fan of having to spend precious feat slots to gain metamagic feats that burn up those resources. It seems to me to be an undesireable trade-off.
Especially since it greatly favors the NPC casters who may only get to cast 3 or 4 spells the rest of their life - why not burn extra spell slots to make those 3 or 4 spells really count? No point going to the grave with unused slots... But the PC casters who are trying to conserve resources will either blow themselves out of the later encounters today, or just won't use their metamagic much, which is what I'm trying to change.
Please note:
As people post their ideas, I'm responding in the vein of discussing their ideas - I'm not trying to argue with them or invalidate their opinions.
Plese don't misconstrue my intent.
As points are brought up, I'm hoping to share my opinion of those points and perhaps open a discussion on those points, maybe even debate them, but not to argue or invalidate them.
And I'm trying to steer the thread on topic regarding the houserule to change metamagic - I would prefer to avoid derailments about which classes or which players use or don't use metamagic. Sure, I realize that opinions on the worthiness of the RAW metamagic rules are valid and salient to the notion of whether metamagic needs or warrants houseruling, but I'd prefer this thread stay more toward whether the houserule is balanced or not, or works, or doesn't work, rather than devolving into a discussion of whether or not it is needed.
Oh! I was meaning to suggest something Blake.
If you wanted to incorporate a 'cost' to using metamagic in your way, you could reduce caster level by the spell level increase of the metamagic. This would represent the focus they have on enhancing the spell, getting a bit in the way of their actual "push" with the spell.
My concern with that system, or many others like it (such as using metamagic on the fly but burning a second spell to "pay the cost of the metamagic"), is that this reduces the number of spells the caster can cast this day - the more he uses his metamagic, the faster he runs out of spells.
Sure, but as you pointed out before, those are mostly "trash spells" that don't get much use.
The problem I have with having class features based on skill checks is that there are many ways to boost skill checks, many of which stack with each other. So it's hard to find a DC that makes it worth trying for a generalist PC that doesn't mean an automatic success for a specialist PC.
Added onto that is the fact that this is a significant power boost for wizards which I don't think is necessary.
Hmmmm, interesting stuff.
I like the idea of a move action with some kind of check to use the meta magic.
I don't like the idea of being able to cast a spell that is equivalent to a level higher then you normally could cast. Adds complexity and could be prone to abuse.
As much as I'm intrigued by the concept, I worry that it will benefit high level wizards the most. Do we really need that? By 15th level, they have the potential to have 3 meta-magic feats as wizard bonus feats, the highest spellcraft checks (by FAR), and loads of spells to throw around.
These are just my initial thoughts, I would really be curious to see how these play out, and I need to think more about it.
Note: I'm playing a 16th level pathfinder beta conjurer, and choose enlarge, heighten, and empower as bonus feats. Used them a little, but not much - perhaps that is ok for bonus feats? How much use would you really get out of the other wizard bonus feats?
Hmmmm, interesting stuff.
I like the idea of a move action with some kind of check to use the meta magic.
I don't like the idea of being able to cast a spell that is equivalent to a level higher then you normally could cast. Adds complexity and could be prone to abuse.
Fair enough.
As much as I'm intrigued by the concept, I worry that it will benefit high level wizards the most. Do we really need that? By 15th level, they have the potential to have 3 meta-magic feats as wizard bonus feats, the highest spellcraft checks (by FAR), and loads of spells to throw around.
You're right that the imbalance in the Spellcraft mechanic (the fact tht it uses INT which primarily benefits INT-casters the most) makes this mechanic favor wizards. I haven't found a better solution, other than coupling it with another houserule that Spellcraft always uses your primary caster ability (WIS for clerics, etc.). That's a separate, but related discussion.
As for benefitting higher levels, I see it benefitting lower levels too. Imagine a level 1 wizard who could empower his Magic Missiles or extend his Charm Person. Sure, the roll would be prohibitive and would cause it to fail more than succeed, but the relatively minor penalty makes it worth trying.
Of course, when it works, it will be somewhat spectacular, and it might overpower the metamagic. It's definitely one of my concerns as well.
These are just my initial thoughts, I would really be curious to see how these play out, and I need to think more about it.
Great! That's what I'm looking for. Intelligent consideration and maybe some playtesting, leading to creative refinements (or if necessary, outright heading back to the drawing board if it turns out unmanageable).
Note: I'm playing a 16th level pathfinder beta conjurer, and choose extend, heighten, and empower as bonus feats. Used them a little, but not much - perhaps that is ok for bonus feats?
I don't think so.
Your bonus feats are class abilities. Just like Rage, Favored Enemy, Wildshape, Sneak Attack, etc.
You should get as much use out of your class abilities as other classes get from theirs. Of course, not all class abilities are created equal, nor should they necessarily be, but I see no reason to be content with underutilized class abilities. If any class ability is too rarely used, then it needs to be called into question.
I'm not sure this is relevent. IME most spellcasers don't take these feats because they're just too situational and won't get used enough, so when you say "with the tools they have", well, they don't have these tools because they are reluctant to invest much (or any) of their character build into stuff they will rarely use.
Just my 2cp, but especially in the case of Wizards, what are they taking with those bonus feats?! IME magic item crafting feats are worthless and only manage to ensure that the casters are forever behind on XP because they have to make stuff for the whole party. 5th level Extend, 10th level empower, 15th level quicken has been the standard for wizards I've adventured with.
Let's face it. Almost nobody uses metamagic feats. Those who do use them almost always use them very sparsely for situational reasons.
I've tried many things over the last decade to make Metamagic work. By work, I mean make it appealing to all casters, all casting classes, without making it overpowered.
I think the example provided in your spoiler is too powerful for a couple of reasons:
1) You should not allow casters to functionally cast spells beyond what their caster level would normally allow unless it comes with some risk and a significant downside.
2) By making the mechanic a move action you allow the caster to complete the enhanced casting entirely on their own turn, eliminating any real chance of interruption, and you divorce the meta attempt from the spell itself isolating the caster from any chance of spell loss.
I would rewrite your rule as:
"At the beginning of their turn a caster may attempt to spontaneously apply a metamagic feat they know to a spell they cast this round. The caster may not apply a metamagic feat to a spell if doing so would raise the spell's effective level to a level higher than the caster would otherwise be able to cast. Casting the spontaneously metamagicked spell requires a full round action - spells that already require a full round action are not affected by this increase in casting time."
I contemplated requiring a concentration check as well but I think the full round action, and its inherent chance for interruption, are a reasonable penalty. Effectively this allows lower level spells to continue to scale and it helps bring Evocers back into line with other casting disciplines. It also makes for more interesting magical combat tactics.
As an alternative, I would suggest leveraging something similar to the Wilder mechanics in the SRD.
Metamagic Surge
You are adept at spontaneously applying metamagic feats to your spells.
Prerequisite: Caster Level 5th, One other metamagic feat
Benefit: A caster with the metamagic surge feat may apply any other metamagic feat they know to a spell they cast this round. Once the surge is completed the caster must succeed on an enervation check of 5% per level that the spell was raised, or lose 2 spell levels worth of spell slots remaining to them that day per spell level that they enhanced the spell and be stunned until the end of their next turn.
Normal: Metamagic feats require the caster to expend higher level spell slots and prepared casters can not apply them spontaneously.
Example: 5th level Wizard maximizes a fireball. Once the spell is complete the Wizard must succeed on an enervation check with a 20% chance to enervate (5% x 4 levels from maximize). If the Wizard enervates they lose 8 levels worth of spell slots which can be assigned at the Wizard's choosing (2 level 3 spells and 1 level 2, 5 level 1 spells and one level 3, etc) and the Wizard is stunned until the end of their next turn (effectively they can take no actions next round)
I'm not sure this is relevent. IME most spellcasers don't take these feats because they're just too situational and won't get used enough, so when you say "with the tools they have", well, they don't have these tools because they are reluctant to invest much (or any) of their character build into stuff they will rarely use.Just my 2cp, but especially in the case of Wizards, what are they taking with those bonus feats?! IME magic item crafting feats are worthless and only manage to ensure that the casters are forever behind on XP because they have to make stuff for the whole party. 5th level Extend, 10th level empower, 15th level quicken has been the standard for wizards I've adventured with.
Quite true.
This was particularly true in 3.x, but now it no longer applies since magic items can be made at no cost to XP.
And you're right, in 3.x, most wizards went for the metamagic feats because they had to do something with those bonus feats, but then they almost never prepared any spells with that metamagic. They were basically just wasted class features.
As a side note, we had other houserules in place to make metamagic more attractive. Some worked OK, but none worked well. We also had houserules in place for crafting items, allowing the crafter to share the XP burden with his helpers, so if a fighter wanted his wizard buddy to make a magical sword, most of the XP came off the fighter. Since we've always houseruled things to make these feats useful (crafting and metamagic) and now Pathfinder has made crafting useful again, it seems that we need to step in and find a way to make the metamagic options as interesting as the crafting options.
I think the example provided in your spoiler is too powerful for a couple of reasons:
I had expected that you would, and I have looked forward to your input.
1) You should not allow casters to functionally cast spells beyond what their caster level would normally allow unless it comes with some risk and a significant downside.
That's fair. That's my biggest concern with this mechanic too. I'm not yet convinced that it shouldn't be possible to cast above your level, but I may agree that there should be more penalty for failure.
2) By making the mechanic a move action you allow the caster to complete the enhanced casting entirely on their own turn,
That was the point.
eliminating any real chance of interruption,
Still lots of ways to interrupt.
and you divorce the meta attempt from the spell itself isolating the caster from any chance of spell loss.
Yes. But you know my feelings on spell loss, and I know yours.
I would rewrite your rule as:
"At the beginning of their turn a caster may attempt to spontaneously apply a metamagic feat they know to a spell they cast this round. The caster may not apply a metamagic feat to a spell if doing so would raise the spell's effective level to a level higher than the caster would otherwise be able to cast. Casting the spontaneously metamagicked spell requires a full round action - spells that already require a full round action are not affected by this increase in casting time."
A worthy rewrite.
I would change "a metamagic feat" to "any metamagic feat(s)" so as to not make it seem that only one feat can be applied.
I'm still unconvinced about casting above the caster's level, as long as the chance for failure is significant. You're probably right that the chance for failure is not significant enough.
I think when you say "requires a full-round action" what you mean to say is "require 1 round to cast". There is a difference. Note the explanation under "Sorcerers and Bards" in the Metamagic Feat section of the Pathfinder Beta rules.
While your point is well-made, I don't like making them take a full round because I specifically wanted to divorce the metamagic from the spell. I may revisit that decision.
I contemplated requiring a concentration check as well but I think the full round action, and its inherent chance for interruption, are a reasonable penalty. Effectively this allows lower level spells to continue to scale and it helps bring Evocers back into line with other casting disciplines. It also makes for more interesting magical combat tactics.
Agreed.
As an alternative, I would suggest leveraging something similar to the Wilder mechanics in the SRD.
Ewww, yuck yuck yuck! I've never met a player who wanted that class for mechanical reasons, though a couple players thought it might be fun for RP reasons. Mechanically, the Wilder is less viable than a tone-deaf bard...
Okay, be aware that I'm coming at this from the 3.x side of the house. I thought I had the PFRPG Beta on my computer, but apparently not. Its likely on the one that crashed a while back. I'm in the process of rectifying that situation (lack of PF, not the crashed computer) right now. It'll go on my flashdrive.
As for casting above your level, I'm all for it when looking at spells you add metamagic onto. If you want to beef up the penalty for failing your Spellcraft check, how about a trip through the scrolls mishap section?
One of my players is very interested in playing a spellcaster, now - thanks to this system. Another player is interested in taking the system for a testdrive, as she knows wizards fairly well.
Just for giggles, I sat down and worked up a Human Wiz3. He has Spellcraft +16: +6 (ranks) +2(Magical Aptitude) +2(know arcana synergy) +3 (skill focus) +3(INT bonus). So, if he wants to cast a Stilled Mirror Image, he'd have a DC of 15(base) + 1 (one metamagic feat) +3 (adjusted spell level) +5(final is one level higher than he can cast) = 24. So he'd have to roll an 8 or better on his spellcraft check.
Plus, any opponent who readied an action to nail anyone who started casting a spell can interrupt him, right?
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Harry should actually be able to automatically cast this spell..
20 ranks in spellcraft, +3 class skill, probably a +10 int bonus unless you're playing in a low-magic game...
being able to automatically cast that spell with all those metamagic feats added may be a bit disruptive...but if you can handle it...
A level 20 wizard SHOULD be able to throw around deadly deadly spells like that in my humble opinion...but consider most people will just maximize/empower everything
This would actually return wizards to their 1e power level...
Quick throw them back under the SLOW XP bus!!
I would say penalty for failure is damage...
1 point for every point they failed by. Rolling a 1 is gonna suck.
In addition I would put a non-lethal component into spellcasting as well...based upon the number of metamagic feats added...based upon the fibonacci sequence...1,2,3,5,8,13...etc.13 pts for 6 metamagic feats isn't too outrageous since you don't have to buy the feats anymore. And applying 1-2 metamagic feats is relatively painless...unless you fail the check.
(I would make the DC target for over your level, based upon the adjusted level...so that 9th level spell that's boosted to a 15th level spell doesn't add +5 to the check it adds +15...)
(I would make the DC target for over your level, based upon the adjusted level...so that 9th level spell that's boosted to a 15th level spell doesn't add +5 to the check it adds +15...)
I thought it added +5 per level higher than you can cast - so going from a 9th to a 15th would add a +30 to the DC. Or were you suggesting something that I missed? It's math, so me missing something is a pretty fair bet!
Harry should actually be able to automatically cast this spell..
20 ranks in spellcraft, +3 class skill, probably a +10 int bonus unless you're playing in a low-magic game...
being able to automatically cast that spell with all those metamagic feats added may be a bit disruptive...but if you can handle it...
Yes, you're right. Good math. It is a bit of a corner case though, since Harry has actually been able to cast 9th level spells for 4 levels higher now - it's equivalent to the math of a 10th level wizard casting 4th level spells (that they could cast since 7th level).
But you're right, automatic might be too easy.
A level 20 wizard SHOULD be able to throw around deadly deadly spells like that in my humble opinion...but consider most people will just maximize/empower everything
I agree with this, but maybe dialing back the Spellcraft check.
Unfortunately, for clerics, sorcerers, etc. (anyone who doesn't use INT as their primary ability score), the Spellcraft check is naturally harder, so dialing it back too much may ruin it for them.
I smell the necessity for a companion houserule to base Spellcraft of of the caster's primary stat instead of automatically using INT.
This would actually return wizards to their 1e power level...
Quick throw them back under the SLOW XP bus!!
Yeah, rather not go there, but I definitely see your point.
I would say penalty for failure is damage...
1 point for every point they failed by. Rolling a 1 is gonna suck.
Well, maybe, but you've already pointed out that our friend Harry here won't fail.
In addition I would put a non-lethal component into spellcasting as well...based upon the number of metamagic feats added...based upon the fibonacci sequence ...1,2,3,5,8,13...etc.13 pts for 6 metamagic feats isn't too outrageous since you don't have to buy the feats anymore. And applying 1-2 metamagic feats is relatively painless...unless you fail the check.
I'm not sure quite where you're going with this. Nonlethal damage? Automatic pain for using metmagic? That might be a bit extreme on the one hand, and on the other, anyone traveling with a cleric with channel energies may not care at all.
And others have suggested making the feats free, but I have not. My goal here was to make it worthwhile to take a metamagic feat, but the expense of a feat slot is still part of the system.
(I would make the DC target for over your level, based upon the adjusted level...so that 9th level spell that's boosted to a 15th level spell doesn't add +5 to the check it adds +15...)
The DC target is always the adjusted level, regardless of whether you are casting above, at, or below your level. So a maximized Fireball is always adding +6 to the check. And in your example, a 9th level spell that is boosted to 15th level would add +15 to the check.
If you could cast 15th level spells (we're talking fairly Epic levels here) then you'd be fine. But if you can't, then you add the over-level modifier. A cumulative +5 for each level over your max.
That means Harry casts a 10th level spell, he adds +5. For an 11th level spell he adds +15. For a 12th level spell he adds +30. And so on. Since skills have no automatic success, even on a natural 20 roll, this quickly adds up to impossibility for any caster.
I thought it added +5 per level higher than you can cast - so going from a 9th to a 15th would add a +30 to the DC. Or were you suggesting something that I missed? It's math, so me missing something is a pretty fair bet!
(I would make the DC target for over your level, based upon the adjusted level...so that 9th level spell that's boosted to a 15th level spell doesn't add +5 to the check it adds +15...)
Actually it would add +105. The penalty is cumulative per level.
Which upon thinking about it is ridiculous. It would be easier to just say +5 for one level, +15 for two levels, and impossible after that. Amounts to the same thing.
If I followed what you presented, a caster could provoke an AoO from trying to tag a metamagic to a spell then, after the AoO is resolved, cast a spell with much less fear of it getting disrupted.
If it's the gist of it, wouldn't it be fairer to all the BBEG out there to have the SA casting resolved before the MA addition of metamagic?
And the implications for Quicken are still unclear and should be looked at carefully.
DW
If I get your idea right, the metamagic component would be separate from the spell, similar to how the masterwork component is separate from an item. I like the premises of this house rules.
I too think that the rule is too complicated. That being said, I cannot think of a better one at the moment that would not result in an auto-success or be available to super-spellcraft-optimized wizards only (I believe your intention is to spread the use of metamagic to cleric and druids as well?)
Forgive me if that has been mentioned already, but one could go the way of 2ed (yes there was metamagic spells in 2ed...). A silent spell could be a 1st level "spell" with a casting time of 1 move action. A maximize spell could take a 3rd level slot etc. Those metamagic "spells" could then be attributed to whatever spell as need be.
However, this would still rob the caster of some of its precious spell slots. So not exactly your intention here...
For what its worth, I believe it is OK to allow a spellcaster to cast above is caster level, but I also agree that there should still be something to pay in exchange. As it has been mentioned, you could face a specific built that could metamagic everything with few or no risk of failure. Tuning the Spellcraft DC up would just make the use of this house rule unavailable to those who did not super-maxed out Spellcraft.
'findel
If I followed what you presented, a caster could provoke an AoO from trying to tag a metamagic to a spell then, after the AoO is resolved, cast a spell with much less fear of it getting disrupted.
If it's the gist of it, wouldn't it be fairer to all the BBEG out there to have the SA casting resolved before the MA addition of metamagic?
That's a great point. Thanks!
I may look into it to reverse the order - the only way to apply metamagic is after you successfully cast the spell (with all the risk of losing that spell to AoOs and such), then you use a move action to add metamagic to it.
Great idea.
And the implications for Quicken are still unclear and should be looked at carefully.
I guess I don't get this point. Quicken makes the spell a swift action. There is no point in using a move action to quicken a spell since it's not very quick if you have to blow a move action to quicken it.
So for Quicken, and any other metamagic feat that speeds up spellcasting, I roll the metamagic into the spellcasting (just like the RAW does) except it still comes with the required Spellcraft check to make it work.
That's the key - same as D&D RAW Quicken, but with the spellcraft check instead of higher spell slot.
If I get your idea right, the metamagic component would be separate from the spell, similar to how the masterwork component is separate from an item. I like the premises of this house rules.
I too think that the rule is too complicated. That being said, I cannot think of a better one at the moment that would not result in an auto-success or be available to super-spellcraft-optimized wizards only (I believe your intention is to spread the use of metamagic to cleric and druids as well?)
Forgive me if that has been mentioned already, but one could go the way of 2ed (yes there was metamagic spells in 2ed...). A silent spell could be a 1st level "spell" with a casting time of 1 move action. A maximize spell could take a 3rd level slot etc. Those metamagic "spells" could then be attributed to whatever spell as need be.
However, this would still rob the caster of some of its precious spell slots. So not exactly your intention here...
For what its worth, I believe it is OK to allow a spellcaster to cast above is caster level, but I also agree that there should still be something to pay in exchange. As it has been mentioned, you could face a specific built that could metamagic everything with few or no risk of failure. Tuning the Spellcraft DC up would just make the use of this house rule unavailable to those who did not super-maxed out Spellcraft.
'findel
You're spot-on with all of this. Exactly the same thought process we went through.
I am thinking that what would help is a simple houserule to Spellcraft to base that skill off of your primary casting ability score.
It makes sense that if a sorcerer affects the world through exercising his raw personality and forceful presence on the magic, that it would be the same type of interaction with the magic that allows him to sustain a spell or identify another spell.
Once everyone is on an equal footing for Spellcraft, then the DCs need to go up.
And the implications for Quicken are still unclear and should be looked at carefully.I guess I don't get this point. Quicken makes the spell a swift action. There is no point in using a move action to quicken a spell since it's not very quick if you have to blow a move action to quicken it.
So for Quicken, and any other metamagic feat that speeds up spellcasting, I roll the metamagic into the spellcasting (just like the RAW does) except it still comes with the required Spellcraft check to make it work.
That's the key - same as D&D RAW Quicken, but with the spellcraft check instead of higher spell slot.
Perhaps it would be simple enough to redefine that Quicken makes the spell a MOVE action (part of the metamagic component) instead of a swift action. It may have some unwanted ramification, but at least it would be consistent with your houserule.
The way I saw it, Quicken is so good, the loss of spell slots was actually worth it (I mean, wouldn't we all cast quickened all the time?)
Seems to me your system allows just that.
Or maybe I missed something?
DW
Perhaps it would be simple enough to redefine that Quicken makes the spell a MOVE action (part of the metamagic component) instead of a swift action. It may have some unwanted ramification, but at least it would be consistent with your houserule.
And the implications for Quicken are still unclear and should be looked at carefully.I guess I don't get this point. Quicken makes the spell a swift action. There is no point in using a move action to quicken a spell since it's not very quick if you have to blow a move action to quicken it.
So for Quicken, and any other metamagic feat that speeds up spellcasting, I roll the metamagic into the spellcasting (just like the RAW does) except it still comes with the required Spellcraft check to make it work.
That's the key - same as D&D RAW Quicken, but with the spellcraft check instead of higher spell slot.
Except that the Efficient Spell feat (I forget which splatbook that is in) already does that. It makes a spell into a Move action for (I think) a 2 spell level adjustment.
I think there is a place for Quicken to work just like the RAW says it works, but tweaked into this houserule too.
Although, thinking about it a little, it does mean that a 9th level wizard might dish out a Quickened Magic Missile right before he drops a Cone of Cold on the bad guys - in the same round. It let's clerics drop a Quickened Cure Light Wounds as a swift action before they clobber the undead with their Channel Energy. Etc.
More and more I'm thinking the Spellcraft DC should be raised.
More and more I'm thinking the Spellcraft DC should be raised.
My worries are that if you make the DC high enough that super-optimized character cannot abuse of it, then no-so-optimized character will not be able to use it.
There has to be a tax on metamagic feats so that character can start on a "somewhat" equal footing. Taking the feat in the first place is already a type of tax, but I think there should be something to pay when the meta-spell is cast as well.
I know your position on the expenditure of spell slots and other renewable yet non-infinite resources, but that's what spellcaster have to bid with. Are better spells worth having less spells? That would be arguable, but I tend to think so.
I agree with your basic premises that metamagic feat are not worth taking as-is (in 3.5 anyway). I agree that the extra layer of planning regarding metamagic is a bit over the top. I'm just not sold on basing a mechanic on a skill check. A caster check perhaps? caster check tend to vary less than a skill check, but they are also frustratingly similar. Yet, such a direction could go hand-in-hand with casting scrolls, which also allow a spellcaster to exceed its caster level so to speak.
sincerely
'findel
Laurefindel mentions a tax of some sort. How about an expensive metacomponent? It's price would scale with the level increase of the metamagic.
DW