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I'm running the RotR AP and at Hook Mountain Massacre. I have a group of 5 players. My problem comes from 2 players that have AC's 33, 27. Are these to high for 8th level. It practically means I need to roll 19-20 to actually hit these guys. It can get a little frustrating at times. I like my game to be Heart pounding in style and play. Any ideas?
Well, could you tell us what are the bonuses they use to get that AC? Because you could try to get them flat-footed...
Those are both pretty high. Average ac for my group is low 20's at the same level. It's probably to late now but it might be time for a character audit to see how it got so high. There may be too much loot being given our or a miscalculation. In terms of hitting them try spells that don't target ac, or at least hit touch ac. There is also ways to lower ac like trip and disarming sheilds or the more permanent sunder.
Also Mage armor doesn't stack with worn armor, they are the same bonus.
You could also try Anti-magic fields. Takes off Mage armor, the Amulets, and any magical effect they may have that is protecting them.
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Like said, Mage Armor is an Armor bonus, and does not stack with other Armor. Also remember that Mithril Plate still has an Arcane Spell Failure Chance in the realm of 25% per spell cast in it (35% base - 10% from Mithril).
Also, high Dex shouldn't matter much. Stone Plate doesn't have a huge max Dex if I recall (+1 or +0), and even Mithril Full Plate only has a +3.
Your sorcerer, for example, should have 10 + 8 (Mith Full Plate) + 3 (max dex possible) or a 21. He can then add any natural armor he has from whatever, and then the Shield bonus of +4 (though that should only be 1 minute / level, not all the time). Still high, but remember that 25% spell failure chance, that's the biggest downside. Even casting Shield in combat should be a 25% chance, anything that requires a Somatic component.
Their touch ACs are probably both pretty abysmal though. Creatures with touch spells should hit them pretty easily. Hello Scorching Ray, how are you today?
We have the same "problem" in my group, where I am a player. All our ACs is late twenties (the barbarian "only" 24 when raging and no defensive stance) at lvl 7.
Have your remembered to adjust the enemies to Pathfinder Beta? The classes gain several bonusses, which might raise them to meet your players abilities.
From a player perspective I wouldn't mind if you raised the enemies attack bonus, so they might hit just once in a while. It is a balance. You need to feel that you get something from focusing on AC, but it isn't fun to fight enemies that never hit.
Could the monsters try Grapple? Trip? Why not give them Improved Grapple or Trip as one of their bonus Feats.... the ones you should be adding to comply with Beta rules!
Maybe some of those monsters that live in the wilds have taken levels in Ranger instead of Fighter... Favoured Enemy Human/Dwarf?
Maybe you could add some low level spell casters to their ranks... attack those low Touch AC's [Ray of Enfeeblement etc.]
Mix it up a bit, keep them guessing!
I know it means more work for you but if the encounters are not challenging the players will get bored and that's not good for any of you.
Good Luck
Also dont forget that the rest of your party is not walking around in Iron Man's favorite tuxedo so blanket solutions like adding to the bab of all enemies might be ill advised and could make the problem worse in the opposite direction.
Also, the monsters can do things to increase their attack bonus, such as flanking, aiding another, attacking from higher ground, etc.
Yep,
Also you can add some traps in, dead falls, pits, and so forth. The monsters know which 'sections' are safe to walk but the PC's don't. I've had good luck using row'd pits.If you're on a mountainside, and the path they are taking up has ledges to either side (one cliff side to the left, and a drop off to the right), you got the perfect situation to really mess with the high-AC people.
Basically, if there's a natural section that limits it down to say, 20 feet, then dig a 10 by 20 foot pit in the middle, leave the 5 feet on either side, 5 feet next to the cliff side, and 5 feet over the drop off.
The monsters run back down the two 5 foot 'safe' sections. They need to set up so this looks natural, if possible. A rock-fall is set up above the pit section on the next higher level, with NPC's waiting. Or a logfall, this works well too.
If the PC's run down the middle of the path, they hit the pit (spiked preferably). If they take the five foot path by the cliff face, the rockfalls hit them and push them into the pit (and also damage people already in the pit). Those who take the outside path should be attacked by NPC's with reach weapons (trip attacks). Either knocking them off the cliff, or tripping them into the pit. A gust attack, if available, works really well for this too.
And none of these can be helped by super high AC.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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You can also use terrain to really hose those heavy armor high AC guys. Climb checks aren't their friends, and if they fail bad enough, that 100' plus fall doesn't care what their AC is. Or, if they're smart, they can take their armor off, and climb just fine, but then their AC isn't so high when climbing.
Sure, by 8th level, there's lots of magic that can help with climbing or remove the need to climb, but I'm guessing that with 2 optimized AC characters in the party, the party as a whole has neglected lots of the utility spells and items out there. Even if they haven't, if the wizard or sorcerer have used all their 3rd level slots for fly spells, then they'll have to deal without fireballs, etc that day.
The 33 is a Dwarf in full stone plate and shield of bashing, high dex bonus, amulet you get the picture.
I am not familir with full stone plate. But I imagine it doesn't allow much of a Max DEX Modifier, even with fighter armor training. Just how high is this dwarf's "high dex bonus" anyway?
The 27 is dragon blooded Sorcerer in mithral plate, high dex, natural armor, mage armor and shield.
It's already been said, but it bears repeating, Mage Armor does not stack with the full plate; it gives a ZERO bonus and is a waste of a spell for this character.
Also, are you making sure he rolls his Arcane Spell Failure for his spells? Tempting as it is to load up a sorcerer into mithril full plate, surely blowing 1/4 of his spells is a hefty price to pay.
Finally, I cannot help but wonder at this gear in the hands of the PC party.
Was this all really laying around in the AP?
Or did they haul back their loot, and trade it in for the perfect gear, especially for this fighter?
I venture to guess that the DM helped this player achieve his 33 AC, either by letting him find this gear in some hoards, or by letting him buy this gear in town.
As the DM, you probably want to prevent these problems before they arise.
There is no reason for an 8th level fighter to have that much AC. If he found that magical armor in a treasure hoard, it would have been wise to switch that for something else not quite so protective.
Worse, if he dragged back a set of +2 banded mail to town and asked the blacksmith "Hey, got any stone full plate for trade" and you said "Sure, right here. Have a nice day." then you've done it to yourself.
Hopefully, your PCs are finding some treasure they cannot really use. In a world full of treasure, at least some hoards have things that are of little or no use to some PC parties.
Hopefully, when they go to trade this useless stuff for something they really want, your NPC store owners are looking at that useless stuff and realizing it's hard for them to sell useless items to the general public, so they don't give full value when they buy it, making it harder for your PCs to pay for the stuff they reall want.
Hopefully, not everything they ever want is available cheap and easy in the nearest town bazaar. Some items are just rare. Others sell out immediately once they're made or put on sale. Other items just need to be quested for.
As for dealing with it now, there are some good suggestions here.
Quite frankly, if a party of halfway-intelligent bad guys (orcs, ogres, etc., or anything more intelligent) are attacking, you can bet they see this turled-up dwarf in full plate and shield and think "Save that one for last, when we can gang up and flank him - for now, go around him and kill his squishy friends". I would certainly play most groups of bad guys this way.
And as has been said, when the fighter is running around wondering why the bad guys aren't attacking him, the bad guy mages with their touch attacks and various WILL save spells are targeting the stone turtle and blasting him to bits.
And never underestimate the value of water traps.
There isn't one in the AP?
Put one in.
Nothing sheds a few pounds of adventuring gear like dropping the PCs into deep water and watching those guys in full plate drown - or take off their plate and swim to the surface.
Even funnier, there is a water elemental who lairs there because he likes the free gear that keeps falling into his lair. And he hids it away where adventurers will never see it again.
Of course, in another hoard nearby is a slightly less bit of ultimate armor to replace that which was lost, but at a lower AC...
I'm running the RotR AP and at Hook Mountain Massacre. I have a group of 5 players. My problem comes from 2 players that have AC's 33, 27. Are these to high for 8th level. It practically means I need to roll 19-20 to actually hit these guys. It can get a little frustrating at times. I like my game to be Heart pounding in style and play. Any ideas?
I'd not see it as much of a problem myself. Let them have a level or two where they are really hard to hit. As soon as you hit module 4 and beyond, you run into the Giants every time you pick up a rock. Ac 33 won't make them bat an eye, and it will even out quickly enough.
I don't really see a need to punish the players for using gear you have given/allowed them to have by forcing them to lose it in water, etc. If you feel that it is destroying your game enjoyment for YOU, however. just sit down with player A and B, explain that its not fun for you as is, and allow them to swap out a few pieces of gear 'offscreen' to bring things in line with what you wish.
I would like to reiterate however, that those high ac's will rapidly lose their safety net.
The 33 is a Dwarf in full stone plate and shield of bashing, high dex bonus, amulet you get the picture.
Yes, I do. They're cheating little weasels!
Stoneplate allows a dex bonus of Zero. Doesn't matter if he has dex 1000.
And since it's made of stone, not metal, you can't even get a mithral version.
The 27 is dragon blooded Sorcerer in mithral plate, high dex, natural armor, mage armor and shield.
Mage armour doesn't stack with mithral plate - which has an arcane spell failure.
If they're cheating, cheat, too. Death magic spells requiring whatever save they're worst at for every enemy!
The 33 is a Dwarf in full stone plate and shield of bashing, high dex bonus, amulet you get the picture.I am not familir with full stone plate. But I imagine it doesn't allow much of a Max DEX Modifier, even with fighter armor training. Just how high is this dwarf's "high dex bonus" anyway?
It's irrelevant how much DEX he has, unless it's negative. Dwarven Stone Plate is from the Arms & Equipment Guide. It is +9 Armor, 0 (zero) Dex bonus, -7 (Negative seven!) ACP, 40% spell failure, and weighs a whopping 80 (EIGHTY!) pounds. This is not something you are racing around in unless you are a dwarf, and even then, you are top-heavy and sink very quickly in mud, sand, and water.
Finally, I cannot help but wonder at this gear in the hands of the PC party.Was this all really laying around in the AP?
It's possible he has some custom 'starting random equipment' house rules, which would explain the equipment. Actually, Mithral Full Plate isn't all that expensive for an 8th level character. Granted, that's all he's probably owning (Maybe +1). The Dwarven Stone Plate is only 250gp more expensive than full plate, so again, for a 8th level, it's not too outrageous (again, assuming it's not +4 or something wierd). There's just not enough details to figure out how they got those high numbers, but I think a lot of it is a new DM not realizing that a lot of that stuff doesn't stack and his players taking advantage of it.
I've found that in general, giving the PC's good equipment doesn't cause too many problems as long as you adjust your adventure's to fit. My current monster campaign group has some EQ that's about 2 levels higher than they might get normally (of course, some of it's 3-4 levels lower than they should have to, just depends on what they could find/roll for random 'inherited' equipment at the start (they started as level 5's)).
I had a player who was a former marine (so I can't directly quote him, a bit too salty) but, his outlook was 'If your players are so busy giggling over the bright shiny bit of equipment they just got, they usually thank you for reaming them with the cruise missle, and everyone is happy'. Granted, I don't enjoy the 'reaming them with a cruise missile', but, as long as they are happy with their equipment and don't mind the fact that the dangers get ramped up because they have their pretty shiney, then it's all fine. I've been in games before where the DM restricted equipment because he didn't like dealing with it. I was a level 9 warmage with MW leather armor and a MW sword. And the DM couldn't understand why the CR's in the MM were way hard for us to overcome, he blamed WoTC for not being able to accurately guage difficulty. He just seemed constitutionally incapable of understanding the CR's assumed equipment of a certain power at a certain level.
In my monster game, we got 5 players, and I just run the encounters at CR 10 to CR 11 (they average ECL 8.5) and things work fine. On the other hand, the five of them are within 8 points of each other on defense (the biggest difference being between the marshal and the scout, who wears no armor at all, just natural armor and BoA (poisondusk lizardfolk)). The AC's range from 21 to 29.
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Ok, this how they got the equipment. I had a TPK in Maginmar-Snake chic monkey stomped them in horrible ways. So, I let them make new characters and let them use The NPC chart in the Beta for how much money they got. My games are pretty tough and don't pull punches. So, they bought equipment accordingly and took feats they needed. It's just a little frustating sometime. As FOR THE IDEAS THANK YOU. The dwarf has a bottle of water breathing for the water traps. The spell which lowered the dwarf to a 1 Strength but still could not hit him. Just getting some stuff off my chest. Thanks for listening. More than likely just have the dragon do a lift and drop.
Just wondering,
so DID you forget to apply the DEX limit (+0) and Armor Check Penalty (-9) to the Dwarf?
And likewise with the Mage Armor stacking with the Sorceror's Mithril Plate? (also DEX limit & ACP)
(does he really accept 25% Spell Failure, did you forget, or does he Still Spell all his spells?)
Implementing all those penalties (if you overlooked them) would seem to make a huge difference.
Ok, this how they got the equipment. I had a TPK in Maginmar-Snake chic monkey stomped them in horrible ways. So, I let them make new characters and let them use The NPC chart in the Beta for how much money they got. My games are pretty tough and don't pull punches. So, they bought equipment accordingly and took feats they needed. It's just a little frustating sometime. As FOR THE IDEAS THANK YOU. The dwarf has a bottle of water breathing for the water traps. The spell which lowered the dwarf to a 1 Strength but still could not hit him. Just getting some stuff off my chest. Thanks for listening. More than likely just have the dragon do a lift and drop.
*nod*
Ok, that makes sense, the equipment isn't all that unreasonable based on price, sounds like they bought the hardest stuff they could find, with +1's on them (I'd guess). Deffinately in the realm of reasonableness based on GP for their level. Not like they got +4 equipment or something, just really expensive midlevel stuff and not a lot of extraneous gear.
As to the dwarf with the bottle of air, don't let that stop you from dropping his stubby butt into the water pit. :) Yes he can breath for awhile while he tries to drag his butt out, but he's not doing anything else. And, there are other nasty things. Any electrical spell hitting that water trap hits him, no save (water conducts, he's covered with water, no way he can reflex save his way out of that damage).
Another thing, if he got lowered to a 1 str, he's not moving in that armor. :) The armor by itself is beyond his lifting capacity.
Just make sure you explain to the two that Mage Armor don't stack, and make the sorcerer roll his spell failure and you will find things much easier (I'm sure the sorcerer will be getting rid of that armor once he realizes how bad it's hurting him).
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Thought dwarven encumbrance negated can't move.
No, it only negates the dropping of speed. You still have to have a strength able to carry the equipment you have. A dwarf who is Heavy encumberance or less moves at 20 feet period. But a dwarf who is over Heavy stops moving, and becomes what my players often refer to as a sitting target. They liked Ray of Enfeeblement a couple of campaigns ago and pulled that trick quite a bit.
Honestly, The next time you attack them and they state that their AC is X I would just ask, "Hey could you do me a favor and show me how that adds up?" If it is as many of us sustpect and they are stacking multiple bonusses then I would point those error's out. I doubt that with the Equipment and spells you are talking about here that their numbers will stand up to scrutiny. Don't accuse, just remind them that the only Armor Class bonuses that stack are Dodge Bonuses.
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Spell Failure
If you ever try to cast a spell in conditions where the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted.Spells also fail if your concentration is broken and might fail if you’re wearing armor while casting a spell with somatic components.
Losing 1/4 of his spells should really suck.
Tam
Thought dwarven encumbrance negated can't move.No, it only negates the dropping of speed. You still have to have a strength able to carry the equipment you have. A dwarf who is Heavy encumberance or less moves at 20 feet period. But a dwarf who is over Heavy stops moving, and becomes what my players often refer to as a sitting target. They liked Ray of Enfeeblement a couple of campaigns ago and pulled that trick quite a bit.
Honestly, The next time you attack them and they state that their AC is X I would just ask, "Hey could you do me a favor and show me how that adds up?" If it is as many of us sustpect and they are stacking multiple bonusses then I would point those error's out. I doubt that with the Equipment and spells you are talking about here that their numbers will stand up to scrutiny. Don't accuse, just remind them that the only Armor Class bonuses that stack are Dodge Bonuses.
Agreed, although, it's a little more complex than that.
Armor Bonus
Enhancement Bonus to Armor (Only one set, not multiples)
Dodge Bonus
Dex Bonus
Deflection Bonus
Enhancement Bonus to Defelction (Again, only one set)
Natural Armor Bonus
Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armor
Competence Bonus to Armor (Some classes get this)
Insight Bonus to Armor (Some feats and ability can give you this)
Untyped Bonus's to Armor (There may be some out there)
A good rule of thumb, per the RAW, is :
Take the best Combination of Armor Bonus & Linked Enhancement
Add in Natural Armor and It's Enhancement
Add in Deflection Bonus and it's Enhancement (if any)
Add in Shield Bonus (if any)
Add in Minimum allowed Dex per armor worn
Add in Dodge Bonus (if Any)
Add in Competence Bonus (if Any)
Add in Untyped Bonus (if Any)
It get's complex, but here is an example :
Armor Bonus Examples (None of these stack with each other) :
+1 Mithral Breast Plate = 5 Armor Bonus +1 Enhancement
Bracers of Armor (+2) = 2 Armor Bonus
Mage Armor Spell = 4 Armor Bonus
Natural Armor Bonus Examples :
Human with Amulet of Natural Armor +2 = 0 Natural Armor bonus +2 Enhancement
Poison Dusk Lizardfolk = 2 Natural Armor Bonus
Dex Bonus :
Dex 18 = +4 Dex Bonus to Armor (Assuming Armor allows +4)
Dex 18 & Full Plate = +1 Dex bonus to armor (Full plate lists +1 Dex Bonus Maximum)
Dodge Bonus's :
Dodge Feat = +1 Dodge bonus to armor (Or +2 with 10+ ranks in acrobatics)
Combat Expertise = +1 Dodge Bonus per -1 to Attack Bonus
Shield Bonus :
Two Weapon Defense = +1 Shield Bonus
Heavy Steel Shield = +2 Shield Bonus
Deflection Bonus :
Ring of Protection +2 = +2 Deflection Bonus
Untyped Bonus :
Monk with Wis 16 = +3 Untyped Bonus to Armor from Wis
Phalanx Fighting Feat = +1 AC when using Heavy Shield & Light Weapon
Competence Bonus :
Grace = +N to AC based on level (Swashbuckler class feature)
Now,
I'm sure there are some feats or equipment that I'm forgetting that can add Circumstance or Insight bonus's to AC as well. But you get the idea. Only those AC boosts from different sources stack. That doesn't mean there's no reason for someone in armor not to also wear say Bracers of Armor or have a Mage Armor spell up also. There is.
Bracers of Armor and Mage Armor are force effects (per descriptions), this means they affect incorporeal or incorporeal touch attacks. Deflection Bonus's affect touch attacks also, as a side note.
So, to get the character's true AC, add up the best of each type (except the Dex Bonus, take the minimum he's allowed per armor worn for that one). Note that for Dex Bonus, Shield penalties and Armor penalties stack (For example, someone wearing full plate has a +1 max, or a +2 max if it's Mithral. If they had a tower shield, that would drop to 0, since a Tower Shield lowers the max dex by 2).
Spell Failure
If you ever try to cast a spell in conditions where the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted.Spells also fail if your concentration is broken and might fail if you’re wearing armor while casting a spell with somatic components.
Losing 1/4 of his spells should really suck.
Tam
Yeppers, nothing ruins a mage's day more than trying to cast Scorching Ray at the charging Orc only to have his gauntlet catch on his dagger sheath while casting. :)
On the other hand, I'm hoping he took some of the arcane armor feats if he's running around in mithral armor.
The 33 is a Dwarf in full stone plate and shield of bashing, high dex bonus, amulet you get the picture.Yes, I do. They're cheating little weasels!
Stoneplate allows a dex bonus of Zero. Doesn't matter if he has dex 1000.
And since it's made of stone, not metal, you can't even get a mithral version.
But, are we speaking of 3.x or Beta PFRPG? Because Armor Training increases the Max Dex bonus allowed.
Let's not forget that a Max Dex bonus of +0 is not the same as 'never Max Dex bonus' for the purpose of Armor Training... elsewhere, a Fighter with Armor Training +4 would be screwed if wearing an Half-Plate or a Splint Mail.(plus, StonePlate actually is Armor +6, Max Dex +1... it's Mountain Plate which is Armor +10, Max Dex +0)
As for characters with a 'sky-high' AC... one of my players had a Fighter with AC 37 at 11th level (his AC was around 31-33 at 8th level, so I know perfectly what this does mean). However, there are other ways to hamper such characters.
Try a CMB specialist (Grapple him to death).
Let him face a Giant who sunders his weapon (you can have AC 90, but if you strike for 1d3+5 hitting with a 20... well, you got the point).
Cast him some nasty spells (Domination, Confusion...)
Shoot him with energy spells. A single Fireball or Lightning Bolt is low-damage compared to a two-handed Power-Attacked hit, but three or four... suddenly the sky-high AC character is starting to feel a little in danger (especially if the enemy is way out of his reach).
Just my 2c.
The 33 is a Dwarf in full stone plate and shield of bashing, high dex bonus, amulet you get the picture.Yes, I do. They're cheating little weasels!
Stoneplate allows a dex bonus of Zero. Doesn't matter if he has dex 1000.
And since it's made of stone, not metal, you can't even get a mithral version.
But, are we speaking of 3.x or Beta PFRPG? Because Armor Training increases the Max Dex bonus allowed.
Let's not forget that a Max Dex bonus of +0 is not the same as 'never Max Dex bonus' for the purpose of Armor Training... elsewhere, a Fighter with Armor Training +4 would be screwed if wearing an Half-Plate or a Splint Mail.
(plus, StonePlate actually is Armor +6, Max Dex +1... it's Mountain Plate which is Armor +10, Max Dex +0)
I'm not sure where you are getting the stats for Stone Plate or Mountain Plate, but the OP distinctly listed Dwarven Stone Plate, which is from the WoTC Arms & Equipment guide, page 15.
Stone, Dwarven 1750gp, +9 Armor Bonus, +0 Dex Bonus, -7 ACB, 40% Spell Failure, 20ft/15ft, 80 lbs
There's some other stuff in the description of the armor, but that's the default non-enhanced version of the armor. Granted, he could be getting bonus's from Armor Training to the Dex Mod, but I don't think he would be in the +4 or +5. As a DM, I'd have to rule that because Dwarven Stone is WoTC (which doesn't have armor training rules) that every additional 10lbs over 50lbs (weight of Full Plate) a non-standard armor is, if it has a +0 for the max dex bonus, that's another +1 worth of Dex Bonus you can't use. That would eat up 3 levels of dex bonus granted from armor training. You're basically walking around with 80 lbs of rock hanging off you. That's much worse than 50lbs of molded metal, with regards to trying to learn to use it effectively.
In other words, just to get a +1 from your dex in this stuff, you'd need at least a +4 Dex Bonus adjustment from Armor Training.
Stone Plate is listed in the Campaign Setting, p211. It is Heavy Armor and the stats are:
Stoneplate 1,800gp AC: +9 Max Dex Bonus: +0 Armor Check Penalty: –8 Arcane Spell Failure Chance: 40% Speed: 15 ft. 10 ft. Weight: 75 lb.
Ah, sounds like we have lots of different definitions of the same thing. :)
However, I don't know about the stoneplate in the campaign setting. So no comments on it. :)
Dwarven Stone Plate is designed to be ceremonial only (per it's description), worked marble basically.
The Stone plate from the Races of Stone (Thanks for pointing me there) does seem to be relatively useful as an armor. 750gp, +6 Armor Bonus, +1 Max Dex, -7 ACP, 45% spell failure 20/15 ft and 35 lbs. Thin strips of stone attached to hide. Even a Druid can wear it, it's Green Armor. :) If that's what his dwarf is wearing, that's not bad armor actually, although steel full plate would be better.
I hope he's not running around in Mountain Plate. My god. It's basically hollowing out an M1 Abrams and walking (not running) around in it. If someone in my game wants to pay the 3,250gp for that monstrosity I'll let them and laugh all day. Even dwarves only get to move 15 feet in it, and can't run. Even if you make it Mithral Mountain Plate they can only walk in it 15 feet per action. I never noticed it before reading this thread, but it's the most rediculous armor I ever saw.
Woops, here's the descript on the Stoneplate from the Campaign Setting:
Stoneplate: Crafted by dwarven stonesmiths from alchemically strengthened plates of shale or basalt, stoneplate is heavy and unwieldy, but it offers unparalleled protection to its wearer.
At the level you'd pick it up, you'd get around Mountain Plate's move restrictions simply by being able to Fly all the time, or something similar. It's normal procedure for high level people.
==Aelryinth
I've got a human fighter in mithral mountain plate. =P
It's actually really, really good with full armor training. +14 AC +4 max Dex/-5 check penalty? Worth it in my opinion. Of course, my character doesn't like to rush, and finds riding distasteful despite having a few ranks in it.
It's the way the horses screech when their spine snaps, it really grates on your nerves...
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The spell which lowered the dwarf to a 1 Strength but still could not hit him.
Why not? He was definetly helpless, wearing a piece of armour with a weight of 75 lbs while he has a maximum capacity of 10 pounds? He couldn't even drag that armour. I'd say the arm alone weighs more than 10 pounds, so he couldn't lift even that to properly defend himself.
And he's encased in that thing.
In my book, that translates to being unable to move and helpless, which means dex 0 and coup-de-grace-able.
His nice, expensive armour turns into a nice, expensive coffin.
The spell which lowered the dwarf to a 1 Strength but still could not hit him.Why not? He was definetly helpless, wearing a piece of armour with a weight of 75 lbs while he has a maximum capacity of 10 pounds? He couldn't even drag that armour. I'd say the arm alone weighs more than 10 pounds, so he couldn't lift even that to properly defend himself.
And he's encased in that thing.
In my book, that translates to being unable to move and helpless, which means dex 0 and coup-de-grace-able.
His nice, expensive armour turns into a nice, expensive coffin.
Mmmmm
You can smell the roasted dwarf (in the shell) from here...
Cook em?
Who said anything about cooking them?
Waste of a good dwarf, I say.
Crunchy on the outside, chewy on the inside. The way I like em.
Cook em?
Who said anything about cooking them?
Waste of a good dwarf, I say.
Crunchy on the outside, chewy on the inside. The way I like em.
Drown him in marinade! }>
30 AC at level 8 for fighters seems to be about right. Armor Training can give you up to 4 points of AC then combine that with the Beta Feats shield focus and greater shield focus for another 2 points. So just using PathFinder Beta stuff you can have a fighter with no magical items with an AC of 28.
That's Full Plate +8, LG STL Shield +2, Dex +3, Armor Training +2, Shield Focus +1, Greater Shield focus +1, Dodge +1. So pick up a suit of Full plate +1 and Shield +1, which is reasonable at level 8 and you have a 30 AC. Want to crank it up so more you could use feats from 3.5 like Phalanx Formation.
So yup it's pretty normal. I find I have to modify monsters in the 3.5 MM by adding a few bonuses to hit and increasing their hit points a bit too. Seems to work out fine.
Fighters are your tanks now, you need them up front. The other classes get hit a lot easier.
Generally I have monster hitting my fighter on 15 or 16 and hitting the other classes on 8-13 depending on their AC.
I've found it's really given fighters their role back in the game. It's now not so much about how much damage you can deliver in 1 round but how much you can deliver while taking the brunt of the attack. It's pretty good actually.
So yup it's pretty normal. I find I have to modify monsters in the 3.5 MM by adding a few bonuses to hit and increasing their hit points a bit too. Seems to work out fine.
Fighters are your tanks now, you need them up front. The other classes get hit a lot easier.
Generally I have monster hitting my fighter on 15 or 16 and hitting the other classes on 8-13 depending on their AC.
I've found it's really given fighters their role back in the game. It's now not so much about how much damage you can deliver in 1 round but how much you can deliver while taking the brunt of the attack. It's pretty good actually.
Except, those modifications to the monsters make them able to easily overwhelm the non-fighters.
What happens in your game if one player is playing a barbarian and another is playing a fighter, standing side by side, fighting those modified monsters?
I bet I can guess who goes through a nasty meatgrinder before the fight is over...
And if one of those modified monsters breaks through to the mage in the back (which anything as smart as a kobold or goblin or orc or ogre, etc., should be able to figure out quite easily), he might as well not even bother with Mage Armor or Shield - go right to Mirror Image and Blink and hope those miss chances keep him alive long enough for the fighter to save him.
It frightens me when we get too high a disparity in AC between characters.
I would much rather have seen Paizo offer the fighter anything else rather than higher AC.
Give him a miss chance, a small chance to shield block a blow to avoid damage (hey, if mages can drop spells in the "blink" of an eye (pun intended) that give a miss chance, maybe letting fighters have a bit of a miss chance isn't too far fetched.
Or give him something to dish out a little more damage, even if it is sporadic or situational. Like being able to get more than one attack after moving (even just one extra attack would be nice).
Or give him something to offset that crummy will save, especially if it is limited (hey, if barbarians can only rage a couple times a day, and paladins can only smite a few times a day, I suppose fighters can only muster up extra willpower a couple times a day too).
Anything but more AC...
DM_Blake:
What you describe is exactly what is happening. The fighter gets in there but the rogues just takes a beating. I gave the rogue a cloak of displacement because he was getting squashed all the time. The 1D8 Hit Die helps but it's not enough. Still the rogue also changed his tactic and relies more stealth to get the sneak attack in now too.
In our group the Sorcerer isn't having as much of a problem as they took the Dragon Blood line and Dragon Disciple PrC. That natural armor sure helps a lot and the 1D12 hit die as well. The Druid tends to stay back until the fighters softens the bad guys up and buffs for bit. It's worked not bad so far.
Now I had my concerns with that high AC and improved monster at first but it seems to work out ok for now. I'm betting the final release of Path Finder won't have Shield Focus, at least I'm hoping it doesn't.
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Except, those modifications to the monsters make them able to easily overwhelm the non-fighters.
What happens in your game if one player is playing a barbarian and another is playing a fighter, standing side by side, fighting those modified monsters?
I bet I can guess who goes through a nasty meatgrinder before the fight is over...
And if one of those modified monsters breaks through to the mage in the back (which anything as smart as a kobold or goblin or orc or ogre, etc., should be able to figure out quite easily), he might as well not even bother with Mage Armor or Shield - go right to Mirror Image and Blink and hope those miss chances keep him alive long enough for the fighter to save him.
I find the Goad feat very useful in this type of situation.
It frightens me when we get too high a disparity in AC between characters.I would much rather have seen Paizo offer the fighter anything else rather than higher AC.
Give him a miss chance, a small chance to shield block a blow to avoid damage (hey, if mages can drop spells in the "blink" of an eye (pun intended) that give a miss chance, maybe letting fighters have a bit of a miss chance isn't too far fetched.
Or give him something to dish out a little more damage, even if it is sporadic or situational. Like being able to get more than one attack after moving (even just one extra attack would be nice).
Or give him something to offset that crummy will save,...
Here are a few feats I have been working on that seem to fit your wishes ;) They are very much in the idea stage and not finished by any means. They need some (major?) tweaking and play testing for sure. Any input (by anyone) would be appreciated.
Cheers
Step Away (Combat) [A riff on Step Up]
You can widen the distance between yourself and a foe.
Benefit: Whenever a foe attempts to make a full attack upon you, you may make a 5-foot step as an immediate action away from the foe that triggered this ability. If you take this step, you cannot take a 5-foot step during your next turn and you count as if you had taken a 5-foot step on that turn (preventing any other movement).
Elusive Target (Combat)
Your training makes you a hard target to hit in melee combat.
Prerequisites: Dodge, Dex 15
Benefit: Opponents suffer a 10% miss chance when engaging you in melee combat.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times and its effects stack (to a maximum of 30% miss chance).
Heroic Strike (Combat)
Your training allows you to strike with devastating efficiency.
Prerequisites: 5th-level Fighter
Benefit: For a number of rounds equal to your ½ your level per day you may add your BAB to damage dealt with melee weapons. These rounds need not be cumulative. You must decide to use this feat at the start of your turn, prior to any attack rolls. This damage is added after all other calculations are finished (ie. This damage cannot be doubled by Critical Hits).
Special: This feat may only be taken once.
Supreme Focus (Combat)
Your martial training allows you to operate free of distraction or influence in situations of extreme duress.
Prerequisites: Iron Will, Wis 13
Benefit: Once per day (in combat), as a free action, you can designate an opponent, to which you have line of sight, as your focused target. You must maintain line of sight to the target. If line of sight is broken, you must re-establish line of sight on your next turn or lose the benefit of this feat. Once a target has been selected (and maintained) any Will save required by you is automatically successful regardless of origin. Once the target has been defeated, or line of sight has been lost, you cannot select another target for 24 hours.
Special: Once you have selected a target, every action taken by you must be to the purpose of defeating the selected target as quickly as possible. If your actions are not deemed to be in pursuit of this purpose (ie. even stopping to heal your own injuries) you lose the benefits of this feat, and cannot select another target for 24 hours.
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Personally, I'd disallow the Stone Plate, cuz it's not Pathfinder and splatbooks have a tendency to contain notoriously game breaking rules/items/feats/spells/recipies for war cakes.
Why not talk to the players and work out a way to resolve the problem. If they won't bend, throw a lot more touch attacks and reflex saves at them. A pyrohydra should be a nice challenge at level 8. >:)
Personally, I'd disallow the Stone Plate, cuz it's not Pathfinder and splatbooks have a tendency to contain notoriously game breaking rules/items/feats/spells/recipies for war cakes.
Why not talk to the players and work out a way to resolve the problem. If they won't bend, throw a lot more touch attacks and reflex saves at them. A pyrohydra should be a nice challenge at level 8. >:)
Stoneplate can be found in the equipment section of the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting.
Personally, I'd disallow the Stone Plate, cuz it's not Pathfinder and splatbooks have a tendency to contain notoriously game breaking rules/items/feats/spells/recipies for war cakes.
Note that the notoriously game-breaking splatbook in this case is the Pathfinder Campaign Setting. :-)
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Stoneplate can be found in the equipment section of the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting.Personally, I'd disallow the Stone Plate, cuz it's not Pathfinder and splatbooks have a tendency to contain notoriously game breaking rules/items/feats/spells/recipies for war cakes.
Why not talk to the players and work out a way to resolve the problem. If they won't bend, throw a lot more touch attacks and reflex saves at them. A pyrohydra should be a nice challenge at level 8. >:)
Sorry, my bad. Just disregard my first comment and focus on the second. Nothing to see here. :)
I would, however, postulate that the 3.5 campaign setting had not taken Beta rules for armour training into account. ;)
Here are a few feats I have been working on that seem to fit your wishes ;) They are very much in the idea stage and not finished by any means. They need some (major?) tweaking and play testing for sure. Any input (by anyone) would be appreciated.
OK, here's my input.
Step Away (Combat) [A riff on Step Up]
Spoiler:You can widen the distance between yourself and a foe.
Benefit: Whenever a foe attempts to make a full attack upon you, you may make a 5-foot step as an immediate action away from the foe that triggered this ability. If you take this step, you cannot take a 5-foot step during your next turn and you count as if you had taken a 5-foot step on that turn (preventing any other movement).
Rebuttal
Fixes:
1. Limit to once per round.
2. Impose some kind of roll, such as a Reflex with a DC = 10+Foe's BAB.
3. Disallow its use against ranged attacks - no 5'move to get behind a tree when Robin Hood is about to full attack you with a bow.
That might make it workable, though anyone taking this feat will jack up their REF save to mega heights so it always or nearly always works anyway, and it seems to me that robbing your opponent of ALL attacks is extremely overpowered for a feat.
Maybe a final fix:
4. Change this from a feat to a fighter class ability, and put it in place of one of the new defensive fighter class abilities.
Elusive Target (Combat)
Spoiler:Your training makes you a hard target to hit in melee combat.
Prerequisites: Dodge, Dex 15
Benefit: Opponents suffer a 10% miss chance when engaging you in melee combat.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times and its effects stack (to a maximum of 30% miss chance).
Rebuttal
Fixes:
1. Try it at 10%, but be prepared to bump it down to 5%.
2. Instead of a flat miss chance, why not give fighters a chance to beat the attack roll made against them? Use a shield to block a blow. Your chance is d20 + BAB + DEX mod + Shield bonus, and the DC is 10+ the modified attack roll. So a weak attack roll is fairly easy to block, and a strong attack roll is difficult, maybe impossible. It's dang impossible to block a crit. A fighter would have to announce the intended block before the roll, so when 8 hydra heads attack, he can't simply wait to see which one hits with the lowest roll, or wait to find one that crits and try to block that one, etc. Limit it to once per round.
3. Make this a fighter class ability instead of a feat. Make it replace the fighter shield mastery feat.
Heroic Strike (Combat)
Spoiler:Your training allows you to strike with devastating efficiency.
Prerequisites: 5th-level Fighter
Benefit: For a number of rounds equal to your ½ your level per day you may add your BAB to damage dealt with melee weapons. These rounds need not be cumulative. You must decide to use this feat at the start of your turn, prior to any attack rolls. This damage is added after all other calculations are finished (ie. This damage cannot be doubled by Critical Hits).
Special: This feat may only be taken once.
Rebuttal
Fixes:
1. Only valid during your round (not with AoOs).
2. This kind of focus only works with weapons in your primary hand.
3. It accounts for your iterative BAB (you may have intended this anyway, but it's not clear, so let's make it clear.) So a 20th level fighter adds +20 damage on his first attack, +15 damage on his second attack, etc.
4. If it seems, in playtesting, to still be over the top, consider imposing at attack penalty, such as a cumulative -2 to hit for each attacks made this round (and since iterative attacks are already at a lower BAB, taking -4, -6, and -8 on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th attacks will account for almost certain misses on the tail end).
Supreme Focus (Combat)
Spoiler:Your martial training allows you to operate free of distraction or influence in situations of extreme duress.
Prerequisites: Iron Will, Wis 13
Benefit: Once per day (in combat), as a free action, you can designate an opponent, to which you have line of sight, as your focused target. You must maintain line of sight to the target. If line of sight is broken, you must re-establish line of sight on your next turn or lose the benefit of this feat. Once a target has been selected (and maintained) any Will save required by you is automatically successful regardless of origin. Once the target has been defeated, or line of sight has been lost, you cannot select another target for 24 hours.
Special: Once you have selected a target, every action taken by you must be to the purpose of defeating the selected target as quickly as possible. If your actions are not deemed to be in pursuit of this purpose (ie. even stopping to heal your own injuries) you lose the benefits of this feat, and cannot select another target for 24 hours.
Rebuttal
So with this feat, I can focus on the fighter in front of me, and all his cleric and mage friends behind him can never land any WILL-save effects on me? Meanwhile, my monk friend is darting back there and killing those casters and my ranger and mage friends are picking them off at range, while I whittle down this fighter in front of me.
Way overpowered.
During the first couple rounds, those guys are saying "Oh, look, a fighter. Hold Person! Sleep! Dominate! Phantasmal Killer!" and it's all bouncing harmlessly off of me, wasting their time and resources with ZERO chance of success until my friends kill them, or threaten them enough that they are leaving me alone anyway, long before I whittle down this fighter guy I'm focussing on.
Then the extreme limit of using it only once per day comes into play, slapping down this feat into near uselessness:
Fighter: What? We're going into an Illithid city? No way, not me, I'm only protected from the first illithid we meet...
Fixes:
1. I think the "regardless of origin" needs to go away. Make this only work against the one source that is the object of your focus. You had better focus on a mage or cleric, or a monster with WILL-save attacks because focusing on his fighter henchman won't do you a bit of good. And then you better try to get past this fighter and confront the spellcaster quickly.
2. Drop the once/day restriction. Or at least reduce it to a number of daily uses equal to 1 + WIS mod, or something like that.
There you go, that's my take on these - obviously without ever playtesting them directly.
They all could use a little fluff, but I understand you were just going for mechanics right now.
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Here are a few feats I have been working on that seem to fit your wishes ;) They are very much in the idea stage and not finished by any means. They need some (major?) tweaking and play testing for sure. Any input (by anyone) would be appreciated.OK, here's my input.
Step Away (Combat) [A riff on Step Up]
** spoiler omitted **Rebuttal
** spoiler omitted **
Actually DMB, Step Away is basically once every two rounds, it counts as your previous rounds 5' step...AND the next round you can't move at all...
It's very balanced and is basically the opposite of one of the added feats Jason put in with the extra feats. It makes perfect sense to me.
How to hit a high AC target while not hitting low AC targets...trip and flank the heavily armored fighters...hit them with swarms, lots and lots of swarms, humanoid swarms...like in shackled city.
Actually DMB, Step Away is basically once every two rounds, it counts as your previous rounds 5' step...AND the next round you can't move at all...
It's very balanced and is basically the opposite of one of the added feats Jason put in with the extra feats. It makes perfect sense to me.
Ahh, well, I don't see in the description where it counts as the previous round's 5' step. All it says is it counts as the next round's 5' step.
So at that, it looks useable once per round.
The inherent limit of Immediate Actions will limit this to only being used once per round, but there is no rule that you have to save your swift action from last round in order to use an immediate action in this round, so that won't limit this feat to being used any less often than once per round.
If you want to limit it to once every two rounds, you will need additional text in the feat explaining this additional limitation.
Oh, and further regarding the proposed Step Away feat:
It basically keeps two melee opponents from hitting each other. Ever.
Imagine an arena.
A fighter with this feat is fighting an orc. They both have enough class levels that they both get multiple attacks each round.
We begin after they are already in reach of each other.
DM Orc's turn.
Orc: I full-attack.
Fighter: I Step Away as an immediate action on the orc's turn.
Orc: Crud, now I can't reach him, so I do nothing.
DM: OK, fighter's turn.
Fighter: Well, I can't move this turn because I am counted as having 5'moved, so I stand where I am and make faces at the orc because I can't reach him.
DM: OK, back to Orc's turn.
Orc: I 5'-move and full-attack.
Fighter: I Step Away as an immediate action on the orc's turn.
Orc: Crud, now I can't reach him, so I do nothing. Again! Grrrrrr!
DM: OK, fighter's turn again.
Fighter: Well, I'm stuck here out of reach again, so I guess I make more faces...
Of course, the orc might figure out to use standard attacks. So he could approach the fighter and hit him once. But then the fighter will full-round attack the orc with all his iterative attacks, so the orc will eventually lose since the fighter is out-attacking him.
So, it's a draw. Neither combatant can hit each other.