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Sarenrae was formerly an Empyreal Lord. She ascended to full godhood during the battle against Rovagug and used her new deific powers to smite Rovagug and drive him into Golarion.
I could see some of the Sarenrae feats working for a cleric of an Empyreal Lord, though the others detailed so far don't seem to be sun-related like she is, meaning that some of the sun-related feats wouldn't fit quite as well.
While sometimes, the other empyreal lords are called saints of Serenrae, or servants, it's not really true.
Serenrae was one of them once, but she ascended to godhood. You could call her a primus inter pares. She's more powerful then the rest, but she can't give them orders - just as Lamashtu couldn't just command Abraxas around.
I'm not quite sure whether the Empyreal Lords are supposed to be archangels, i.e. powerful angels, or the most powerful among all celestials. Information seems to imply that they're all angels, but I'm not quite sure.
Anyway, the Campaign Setting has short paragraphs about six empyreal lords, and also the basic information for clerics (alignment, areas of concern, domains, favoured weapon). You would have to come up with your own specific feats for them, since their areas of concern differ from Serenrae's.
Creative Director
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Empyreal lords are the good-guy version of demon lords, archdevils, or one of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Whereas the evil guys all fall into different categories, the good guys do not; there are LG, NG, and CG empyreal lords. All of these creatures are generally what we would call "demigods" in Golarion, meaning they can grant spells to mortals, are somewhere between CR 30 and some undefined number above that (probably CR 40), and have actual stat blocks. A mortal can kill a demigod if he's powerful enough, in other words.
Three of these creatures have ascended into divinity and actual godhood (which means you don't have a stat block because you can't be killed by mortals). Sarenrae is a god-level empyreal lord, Lamashtu is a god-level demon lord, and Asmodeus is a god-level archdevil.
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A mortal can kill a demigod if he's powerful enough, in other words.
Three of these creatures have ascended into divinity and actual godhood (which means you don't have a stat block because you can't be killed by mortals).
So does that mean that Arazni was a demigod, and not a god? I mean, everything I've looked at pretty expressedly said that the Whispering Tyrant was an undead mortal, and should have not been able to kill a god.
Three of these creatures have ascended into divinity and actual godhood (which means you don't have a stat block because you can't be killed by mortals). Sarenrae is a god-level empyreal lord, Lamashtu is a god-level demon lord, and Asmodeus is a god-level archdevil.
I thought Asmodeus was one of the original gods of Golarion. Or is the idea that he was involved in creating the contracts between the gods regarding the creation of the world just Asmodean myth?
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Creative Director
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So does that mean that Arazni was a demigod, and not a god? I mean, everything I've looked at pretty expressedly said that the Whispering Tyrant was an undead mortal, and should have not been able to kill a god.A mortal can kill a demigod if he's powerful enough, in other words.
Three of these creatures have ascended into divinity and actual godhood (which means you don't have a stat block because you can't be killed by mortals).
Correct. She was a demigod; she never quite made it to full goddess (although I wouldn't be surprised to see that we'd mixed up the words demigod and god here and there in the distant past of a year ago).
Also, I should note that a mortal probably CAN kill a god... but not in a way that interacts with what should be its stat block. This event would basically be the final result of a long-running and likely epic-level campaign.
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Creative Director
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Three of these creatures have ascended into divinity and actual godhood (which means you don't have a stat block because you can't be killed by mortals). Sarenrae is a god-level empyreal lord, Lamashtu is a god-level demon lord, and Asmodeus is a god-level archdevil.I thought Asmodeus was one of the original gods of Golarion. Or is the idea that he was involved in creating the contracts between the gods regarding the creation of the world just Asmodean myth?
Ask Asmodeus and you'll get a different story than if you ask other deities. We're deliberately building in some conflicts and contradictions into Golarions ancient history because that helps make that ancient history even more unsure, and also lets each GM decide which version that he wants to make official for his version of Golarion.
Asmodeus is certainly an old god, though. So are Lamashtu and Sarenrae. But other gods, like Pharasma and Gozreh and Desna were ancient even when Asmodeus and Lamashtu and Sarenrae were first created as non-divine beings.
I thought Asmodeus was one of the original gods of Golarion. Or is the idea that he was involved in creating the contracts between the gods regarding the creation of the world just Asmodean myth?
You can expect to see the detailed, Asmodean version of prehistory in Book of the Damned.
Asmodeus is certainly an old god, though. So are Lamashtu and Sarenrae. But other gods, like Pharasma and Gozreh and Desna were ancient even when Asmodeus and Lamashtu and Sarenrae were first created as non-divine beings.
Again, it's worth noting that there are built-in contradictions and vagaries, especially when you're dealing with millions upon millions of millennia, times before time was a concept, and myth. With few exceptions, there's little point or objective way to tell which deities are older or younger than others. And largely it doesn't matter, as age has no bearing on power or influence. I also suspect that even if you ask the various developers here their takes on the before-times and rise of the deities you'll get different answers, probably none of which mesh up together 100% or with the sum of the extraplanar info we've presented throughout all of our products.
And that's really fine, since this stuff is meant to be inscrutable and mysterious.
Having all the facts and how and whens of deities lessens them, making them just a violent and incestuous family. It's all the tales, apocrypha, and possibilities, tellings and retellings - like you get with the Greek Gods - that make them interesting and legendary.
Empyreal lords are the good-guy version of demon lords, archdevils, or one of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
But I understand there are other good outsiders of that power level around, yes? Azatas have their Lords of the Courts, the archons their Paragons, and agathions their leaders.
Are those different? Are they considered empyreal lords, too?
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Creative Director
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Empyreal lords are the good-guy version of demon lords, archdevils, or one of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse.But I understand there are other good outsiders of that power level around, yes? Azatas have their Lords of the Courts, the archons their Paragons, and agathions their leaders.
Are those different? Are they considered empyreal lords, too?
They're all considered empyreal lords, although the titles they might have can vary.
This is largely musing on the topic, so don't assume it's accurate unless James, Wes, etc backs me up here. ;)
I wouldn't be surprised if each of the various gods, archfiends, protean lords, empyreal lords, and even the axiomite godmind would all provide a different version of the creation of the world. Each of them would be flavored by their perspective and what portion of the cosmos they had interactions with whenever they first appeared / arrived / were created.
The proteans might give you innumerable versions, each one filtered down as a string of barely lucid, fragmented insights channeled through them by their enigmatic, dualistic gods.
The axiomites could tell you an amazing amount of material, colored by their war against the Maelstrom, and probably nothing if you asked them about what happened before they and Axis arrived within the cosmos. What that absence of information means is anyone's best guest.
The archdaemons would tell multiple stories, all of them a combination of half-truth and self-serving lies, probably to cover up their own agony and inner division over just what their own history was and what it means for them. They probably question every word that comes from the Oinodaemon, but can't help but listen, even as they spit upon him to hide their very real terror in his presence.
The truth about how the Verse was created is painfully obvious, of course: It always was. Or, more precisely, the Cerulean Void always was. It's just experiencing one of those short phases where it caught a light case of Order, nothing a couple aeons of rest won't cure.
They probably question every word that comes from the Oinodaemon
Provided, of course, that the Oinodaemon exists. I wouldn't put it past the Daemons to have made that up.
They're all considered empyreal lords, although the titles they might have can vary.
Interesting. So the celestials have a unity the fiends cannot manage.
There are still more archfiends beyond the three normal flavours, though, right? There's more than just archdevils, horsemen and demon lords. The divs have a lord, or lords, of their own, which isn't/aren't considered any of the other three kinds.
And there's the neutral alignments, of course. Outsider Lords for axiomites, proteans, and everything else.
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Creative Director
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Interesting. So the celestials have a unity the fiends cannot manage.
There are still more archfiends beyond the three normal flavours, though, right? There's more than just archdevils, horsemen and demon lords. The divs have a lord, or lords, of their own, which isn't/aren't considered any of the other three kinds.
And there's the neutral alignments, of course. Outsider Lords for axiomites, proteans, and everything else.
Correct; good guys just get along better than evil guys in the multiverse. There's several other ways that the good outsiders differ from the evil ones as well. One that comes to mind is that there's a LOT more demon lords/horsemen/archdevils than there are empyrial lords. Another is that the good outsiders have a category of outsider (angels, who can be ANY good alignment) that doesn't have an "opposition" race among the evil outsiders.
There are only 8 archdevils and only 4 horsemen at a time. There are countless demon lords, but only about 28 who really have a huge role in Golarion. There's certainly other demon lords out there, and probably some equally powerful evil outsiders in Hell and Abaddon as well, but they're more obscure. The divs, for example, do have a lord, but he's a lot less powerful than a demon lord. He's statted up in Pathfidner #24, btw.
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Empyreal lords are the good-guy version of demon lords, archdevils, or one of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse.But I understand there are other good outsiders of that power level around, yes? Azatas have their Lords of the Courts, the archons their Paragons, and agathions their leaders.
Are those different? Are they considered empyreal lords, too?
OK, just call me dumb.
Demons, Devils, Daemons. Check
Angels, Archons. Check.
Agathion, Protean Lords, Axiomites, Divs, Cerulean Void... Okay have I been under a rock for a few decades or what? Who are they and what is it?
Empyreal lords are the good-guy version of demon lords, archdevils, or one of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse.But I understand there are other good outsiders of that power level around, yes? Azatas have their Lords of the Courts, the archons their Paragons, and agathions their leaders.
Are those different? Are they considered empyreal lords, too?
OK, just call me dumb.
Demons, Devils, Daemons. Check
Angels, Archons. Check.
Agathion, Protean Lords, Axiomites, Divs, Cerulean Void... Okay have I been under a rock for a few decades or what? Who are they and what is it?
Krome, you're not dumb by any stretch... maybe just missing the latest of Paizo's Pathfinder Chronicles; "The Great Beyond" which gives us a glimpse to the multiverse as it pertains to Golarion. The Agathions, Proteans (and their Lords), and Axiomites all appear in that book. The Divs are a new evil outsider from the Legacy of Fire AP (out now... and a wonderful spiritual successor to Al~Qadim btw...) And to top it off the divs are brought to us by none other than Adam Daigle! (Oh and the Cerulean Void is another name for the Maelstrom I believe (or a part of it.)
Hope that helps.~Dean; the Minstrel Wyrm
Agathion, Protean Lords, Axiomites, Divs, Cerulean Void... Okay have I been under a rock for a few decades or what? Who are they and what is it?
Agathion = NG celestials focused inwards on their native plane of Nirvana (Angels are their likewise NG counterparts who instead focus outside of Nirvana).
Protean Lords = unique members of the protean race (the primary CN outsiders)
Axiomites = the primary LN outsiders (think idealized humanoids made of magical nanites)
Divs = lesser NE outsiders of Abaddon, likely originated from the souls of genie-kin
Cerulean Void = another name for the Maelstrom, but more properly the inner Maelstrom where the sane but shifting landscape of the borderlands transitions over to an infinite, viscous blue-tinted void of raw potential.
OK, just call me dumb.
Krome, you're just dumb. Happy now? I don't like insulting people, but you asked for it. I hope I got to help you.
Agathion, Protean Lords, Axiomites, Divs, Cerulean Void... Okay have I been under a rock for a few decades or what? Who are they and what is it?
Under a rock, maybe. But not necessarily for decades. That stuff is Pathfinder stuff.
Some of them, you might already know, under a different name. Names like Guardinals and Eladrin aren't free - wizards wants to keep them to themselves (and after seeing what they did with Eladrin, they honestly can keep it). Slaadi are off limits altogether
While the NG outsider creatures have names that are in the SRD (leonal, for example), their group needed a new name. So now they're called Agathions.
Same with Eladrin, who are Azatas now.
In the place of the froglike slaadi (who often were evil, anyway, thus a bad representative of pure chaos), we have the serpentine Proteans (if you look at the cover of The Great Beyond, you'll see one of them)
Axiomites are the true lawful outsiders.
And then, there's a lot of other fiends out there. Divs, Demodands, Asuras.... the list goes on. Divs are found in the bestiary pages of Legady of Fire. They're often from other cultures (Divs from Katapesh, Asuras from Vudra...) than your standard pseudo-European realms.
I really like this entire new construction of other planar entities.
Back in the early PF days, I mourned that something weren't included in the SRD. As time goes by and everything gets replaced by creatures relevant to this campaign setting.. I'm starting to forget things (like slaad) that used to be classic.
It's like running water wearing down stone. WOTC's IP is slowly washed away from my thoughts, at least when I think of PF RPG and 3.5.
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I really like this entire new construction of other planar entities.
Back in the early PF days, I mourned that something weren't included in the SRD. As time goes by and everything gets replaced by creatures relevant to this campaign setting.. I'm starting to forget things (like slaad) that used to be classic.
It's like running water wearing down stone. WOTC's IP is slowly washed away from my thoughts, at least when I think of PF RPG and 3.5.
Slaad, slaad, slaad... OH I think I remember them! They are part of some children's game right? ;)
I THINK I remember Div being discussed some time ago on the boards, and I just picked up the AP with them. If memory is right (doubtful) Paizo wanted an outsider race associated with Earth. In real Earth myth, the djinn were air, efreet were fire, marid were water, and it was man associated with earth. Well that wouldn't work for a RPG, so I seem to remember them developing the Div, named from an ancient demon if I remember right. Oh well, I'll see more of them later.
OK, Great Beyond... I plan on getting it. Hate when subscribers get theirs so much earlier than me! Yes I was a subscriber but finances are not regular enough to allow me to subscribe again... yet!
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Not telling me anything I didn't already know! lol but at least I am not an elf! >;)
Never liked the Slaadi, they just didn't work for me. They were just evil outsiders pretending to be purely chaotic.
REALLY liked the old Eladrin, so Azatas are my new best friends then.
OK, Proteans look interesting and might just work fine. I remember reading about them on the boards now. May the Sladdi rest in peace and stay there!
Axiomites are the true lawful outsiders.
Someone said made up of nanites? Seriously? Was someone stoned or what? I'll withhold judgment, but am seriously leaning to indifferent to these.
These all look interesting (well, most all anyway)... NANITES? Seriously? lol well, nice thing about RPGs, is the freedom of GMs to change things. lol :) NANITES??????
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I really like this entire new construction of other planar entities.
Back in the early PF days, I mourned that something weren't included in the SRD. As time goes by and everything gets replaced by creatures relevant to this campaign setting.. I'm starting to forget things (like slaad) that used to be classic.
It's like running water wearing down stone. WOTC's IP is slowly washed away from my thoughts, at least when I think of PF RPG and 3.5.
Though I SERIOUSLY miss the Yuan-Ti! Now that was a monster I used a LOT. I think I am going to use Salamanders to fit that same role. A tweak or two and they will work fine enough.
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Director of Narrative
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Off topic slightly, but here's a bit more background, Krome:
When Wes approached me about developing the divs, he told me that they were wanting to do a new fiend that would have some Persian feel to it for the Legacy of Fire AP. In Persian folklore, their fiends are called divs (also, depending on the translation and era – daevas, drujs, drugs, demons, etc). Since the vast amount of fiends are either CE (demons and demodands) or LE (devils and asuras), he wanted to make the divs closely tied to NE (like daemons). Also, Ahriman, the Persian analog to Satan pretty much, is represented in folklore as being directly associated with and interested in destruction for destruction’s sake. Ahriman and the divs delight in ruining mortals. While daemons are into collecting souls, divs just want to screw souls up and destroy lives.
The timing was perfect as I was about halfway through the Book of Kings by Ferdowsi, easily considered the most important poet and storyteller of the Persian people. The stories of the hero Rostam and his battles with sorcerers and divs had me primed to come up with a whole family of NE fiends. While the names for some of the divs are slightly changed (something I find ironically similar to how the ancient Persian language (Avestan) changed throughout the years, throwing more than a few kinks into my research) their spirit is true to the folklore and was quite easy to tie to particular parts of Golarion.
Axiomites are the true lawful outsiders.
Someone said made up of nanites? Seriously? Was someone stoned or what? I'll withhold judgment, but am seriously leaning to indifferent to these.
These all look interesting (well, most all anyway)... NANITES? Seriously? lol well, nice thing about RPGs, is the freedom of GMs to change things. lol :) NANITES??????
Axiomites are beings of living mathematics. When they move, they have a tendency to partially or wholly briefly discorporate into glowing clouds of golden, crystalline dust that upon closer inspection are composed of discrete, constantly changing strings and progressions of symbols and equations. In a thematic way, sort of like living clouds of nanites, but not actual physical nanites.
They're very much primarily inspired by Planescape's Moignos (but given a more humanoid aspect), and perhaps to a much lesser degree, the human-form replicators from Stargate.
What is the relationship between the rest of the Empyreal Lords and Sarenrae?
I like the idea of playing a cleric of an Empyreal Lord in LoF. COuld I use him with the Sarenrae feats and whatnot?
A new character in a game I run is a battle cleric of The Empyreal Lords including Sarenrae. From reading everything we could find about them, we basically decided that Sarenrae doesn't rule over the Empyreal Lords, but is likely the most respected (former) member of them-- an examplar of all that is good.
We are definitely allowing any feats related to both Sarenrae, the Empyreal Lords, etc.,. It's generally best to say yes rather than no and possible bad feat combinations can be dealt with on a case by case basis.
I agree with the slaadi. They weren't really True Chaotic.
Proteans seriously rock. They're chaos incarnate. Actually. And their abilities reflect that. Get hit by them and your form changes.
You could call the axiomites' stuff "nanites", just as you could call a vampire's mind controlling gaze "mind control ray". It's all a matter of interpretation. Remember that every technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic, and that works both ways.
Div aren't the earth genies. Those are called Shaitans. Div are corrupted jinn from abaddon.
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What is the relationship between the rest of the Empyreal Lords and Sarenrae?
I like the idea of playing a cleric of an Empyreal Lord in LoF. COuld I use him with the Sarenrae feats and whatnot?
A new character in a game I run is a battle cleric of The Empyreal Lords including Sarenrae. From reading everything we could find about them, we basically decided that Sarenrae doesn't rule over the Empyreal Lords, but is likely the most respected (former) member of them-- an examplar of all that is good.
We are definitely allowing any feats related to both Sarenrae, the Empyreal Lords, etc.,. It's generally best to say yes rather than no and possible bad feat combinations can be dealt with on a case by case basis.
Great minds think alike. That's pretty much what we're doing.
My Cleric likes to refer to them as: "The Higher Burning Fire." Which is both a cool name and a deeply obscure musical reference, huzzar!
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Axiomites are the true lawful outsiders.
Someone said made up of nanites? Seriously? Was someone stoned or what? I'll withhold judgment, but am seriously leaning to indifferent to these.
These all look interesting (well, most all anyway)... NANITES? Seriously? lol well, nice thing about RPGs, is the freedom of GMs to change things. lol :) NANITES??????
Axiomites are beings of living mathematics. When they move, they have a tendency to partially or wholly briefly discorporate into glowing clouds of golden, crystalline dust that upon closer inspection are composed of discrete, constantly changing strings and progressions of symbols and equations. In a thematic way, sort of like living clouds of nanites, but not actual physical nanites.
They're very much primarily inspired by Planescape's Moignos (but given a more humanoid aspect), and perhaps to a much lesser degree, the human-form replicators from Stargate.
OK, got it. Not so bad at all. Just like elementals are composed of their elements, just like angels are composed of goodness, Axiomites are composed of mathematics (which I shall refer to in my own head as possibility). I like that better than nanites.
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I agree with the slaadi. They weren't really True Chaotic.
Proteans seriously rock. They're chaos incarnate. Actually. And their abilities reflect that. Get hit by them and your form changes.
You could call the axiomites' stuff "nanites", just as you could call a vampire's mind controlling gaze "mind control ray". It's all a matter of interpretation. Remember that every technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic, and that works both ways.
Div aren't the earth genies. Those are called Shaitans. Div are corrupted jinn from abaddon.
Okay, Shaitans are the earth genies. Have we seen them yet? I am especially interested in them.
Corrupted jinn... I LIKE IT! Divs are my new best friends! :)
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I agree with the slaadi. They weren't really True Chaotic.
Proteans seriously rock. They're chaos incarnate. Actually. And their abilities reflect that. Get hit by them and your form changes.
You could call the axiomites' stuff "nanites", just as you could call a vampire's mind controlling gaze "mind control ray". It's all a matter of interpretation. Remember that every technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic, and that works both ways.
Div aren't the earth genies. Those are called Shaitans. Div are corrupted jinn from abaddon.
Okay, Shaitans are the earth genies. Have we seen them yet? I am especially interested in them.
Corrupted jinn... I LIKE IT! Divs are my new best friends! :)
One's on the cover of Pathfinder 22.
They play a prominent role in the Legacy of Fire Adventure path (along with the other geniekind). And the Divs are making appearances in the Legacy of Fire bestiary, too.
Okay, Shaitans are the earth genies. Have we seen them yet? I am especially interested in them.
Pathfinder 18's bestiary.
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My Cleric likes to refer to them as: "The Higher Burning Fire." Which is both a cool name and a deeply obscure musical referenceVery Gandalf
– The Fellowship of the Ring II 5: "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
Well, Gandalf was a Fire Maïa, after all, just like the Balrog and Sauron himself were, before they rebelled and threw their lot with Morgoth.
I seem to recall that Saroumane was one too.
Also, Gandalf was the wearer of the elven ring of Fire.
Also, Gandalf was the wearer of the elven ring of Fire.
Is that the original or the H-BlockX cover?
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Well, Gandalf was a Fire Maïa, after all, just like the Balrog and Sauron himself were, before they rebelled and threw their lot with Morgoth.
I seem to recall that Saroumane was one too.
Also, Gandalf was the wearer of the elven ring of Fire.
Gandalf was indeed of the order of the Maïa (as was Sauron, the Balrog, and Saruman), and while he bore Narya, the Elven Ring of Fire,
he was not a servant to it. He was making a claim that dates to the Vision of Ilúvatar, before the creation of the world.|
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Though I SERIOUSLY miss the Yuan-Ti! Now that was a monster I used a LOT. I think I am going to use Salamanders to fit that same role. A tweak or two and they will work fine enough.
Think we're seeing who doesn't have a Pathfinder Chronicles subscription here...
Paizo's Serpentfolk are in Into the Darklands.
As far as I remember, Balrogs weren't even Maia, they were lesser still.
No, Balrogs were Maia, which came under the corrupting influence of the Valar Melkor.
--
So, where did I put this blasted key?
There is no Empyreal Lord. Or demon lord. Or archdevil.
There is only Zuul.
There is no Empyreal Lord. Or demon lord. Or archdevil.
There is only Zuul.
That guy's an amataur.