This is stupid and irrelevant, but I figured, "hey, it's the internet" so here we go:
One problem I've always had with the wheel is it's structure. Or rather, the nature of it's structure. 9 alignment planes and 8 mixed planes all arranged around in a wheel.
So 7 of these 17 planes have some sort of chaotic leaning. The 3 CE, CN & CG planes and then the half way/mixed planes. A full 41% of this ordered symmetrical cosmic structure are places of chaos and disorder.
I find the descriptions of the Great Beyond in Pathfinder to be far more mysterious and lacking such simple symmetry. I like that. A lot. Between the infinite nature of the Abyss and the Maelstrom and the somewhat relative positioning of the other planes relative to Pharasma's Spire, you have a lot of leeway. It definitely doesn't come across as nearly as understandable, codified and figured out as a symmetrical 9/17 piece wheel.
I find the descriptions of the Great Beyond in Pathfinder to be far more mysterious and lacking such simple symmetry. I like that. A lot. Between the infinite nature of the Abyss and the Maelstrom and the somewhat relative positioning of the other planes relative to Pharasma's Spire, you have a lot of leeway. It definitely doesn't come across as nearly as understandable, codified and figured out as a symmetrical 9/17 piece wheel.
On some level it may be semantics, but I did try to go out of my way to make the precise location of the planes w/ respect to one another a lot more fluid and relative, rather than being as strictly defined (by nature of having the Outlands in many respects) as in a strict Planescape/Great Wheel way of looking at them (though admittedly, even there it was a conceptual framework rather than a true map).
I'm glad the perception that you've got is the one I was trying to suggest in the material. :)
I'm glad the perception that you've got is the one I was trying to suggest in the material. :)
When I read about Golarion's cosmology and then read my planescape stuff, I imagine the Pathfinder Chronicles stuff singing "Anything you can do, I can do better."
I suggested to my group that for days when someone can't make it, we have a second game going that will be planar travel based. When I suggested Planescape, I got a few rolled eyes and not a lot of enthusiasm. When I suggested the Great Beyond as an alternative for the same type of game. Everyone was on board.
I inquired as to why and the response I got was that a couple of my players associate Planescape with the other developments in the RPG industry in the early 90s. Namely, the beginning of White Wolf's product lines. They see Planescape as D&D's attempt to tap into the dark/goth market that Vampire and the like appealed to more directly. They don't have a very high opinion of that whole branch of RPG development and rightly or wrongly, lump Planescape in with it. I hadn't ever heard this before, so I was a bit surprised.
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I really like and enjoyed the Planescape line. The Torment video game was the cherry on the sundae, after years of good gaming products, they closed the era with an AMAZING video game, and sealed Planescape into legend in the hearts of many a fan.
The only critique (and it's a very small one) I've ever had about Planescape is that **yes**, it took out the element of danger associated with astral/ethereal planar travel introduced in the impossibly complicated 1st edition Manual of the Planes. When everything is about getting a key to the right door to get to the right place (i.e. Sigil), planar campaigns become jaded "fetching quest" affairs, with the occasional (cool) talk with a demon or effreeti in some seedy bar to gain info on the said key... blah blah blah. Over months (let alone years) this gets very old.
Whether I'm right or wrong on this (as I haven't finished reading the PDF, awaiting the actual print copy to ease my daily train commute), I get the general feeling that Great Beyond adds back some of that element of danger. I look forward to reading the rest of the book and seeing the whole picture.
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While I love Planescape and the Great Wheel, I always had a problem with some outer planes.
Abyss, Baator, Mechanus, Celestia, Elysium, Mechanus, Arcadia, Limbo - OK, but the other good and evil aligned never really caught me - they weren't too distinct. Pandemonium/Gehenna/Hades/Carceri and Bytopia/Arborea/Ysgard always did blend together - sure, they had their cool ideas and hooks, but just nothing as strong or iconic as the Abyss or Heaven.
So, I actually like that Pathfinder cuts down on outer planes and keeps a "1 plane per alignment" rule. Also, best idea for a NN plane ever, Boneyard rocks !
While I love Planescape and the Great Wheel, I always had a problem with some outer planes.
Abyss, Baator, Mechanus, Celestia, Elysium, Mechanus, Arcadia, Limbo - OK, but the other good and evil aligned never really caught me - they weren't too distinct. Pandemonium/Gehenna/Hades/Carceri and Bytopia/Arborea/Ysgard always did blend together - sure, they had their cool ideas and hooks, but just nothing as strong or iconic as the Abyss or Heaven.
So, I actually like that Pathfinder cuts down on outer planes and keeps a "1 plane per alignment" rule. Also, best idea for a NN plane ever, Boneyard rocks !
I've had similar thoughts. While I will always love the Great Wheel as a conceptual model--the way there's a gradual alignment "bleed" around the Outlands does a good job of explaining the 2nd group of planes you mention--I do see the benefits of trimming that model down to size.
For my homebrew, I've had it in the back of my mind for years that (in-game) in the future--maybe at a Conjunction of the Million Spheres-type of event--I would actually restructure the multiverse of the Great Wheel. As such, the Great Beyond is a perfect succession model and I'm grateful Todd did all the heavy lifting for me ;-)
Where I'll differ from you is that I don't prefer one model over the other. But I will eventually retire the GW to make way for the GB.
I think the thing that excites me the most about Golarion's cosmology is the potential and the tweaking I can do. It's no possible to plug this plane or that plane in from other sources, and having it logically follow that the plane is there. The Maelstrom makes a wonderful place where any potential plane could exists in the mess that it is.
I love it. Beyond Countless Doorways, Classic Play Book of Planes and several others now have a natural fit in the my version of Golarion.
I think the thing that excites me the most about Golarion's cosmology is the potential and the tweaking I can do. It's now possible to plug this plane or that plane in from other sources, and having it logically follow that the plane is there. The Maelstrom makes a wonderful place where any potential plane could exists in the mess that it is.
I love it. Beyond Countless Doorways, Classic Play Book of Planes and several others now have a natural fit in the my version of Golarion.
While I haven't yet found the need to stick other stuff into the cosmology, it will certainly work. I'm a big fan of the City of Brass stuff from Necromancer Games. From what I've read, Golarion was written pretty much the point where it just fits. I think even some of the Adventure Path stuff is written with it specifically in mind.
I think the thing that excites me the most about Golarion's cosmology is the potential and the tweaking I can do. It's no possible to plug this plane or that plane in from other sources, and having it logically follow that the plane is there. The Maelstrom makes a wonderful place where any potential plane could exists in the mess that it is.
I love it. Beyond Countless Doorways, Classic Play Book of Planes and several others now have a natural fit in the my version of Golarion.
That's an excellent point, the plug & play option for other planes as need be. I'm also a big fan of Beyond Countless Doorways.
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Yup. I used it as a reference source when writing The Impossible Eye so the two could blend togather easily for anyone running using Necro's boxed set.I'm a big fan of the City of Brass stuff from Necromancer Games. From what I've read, Golarion was written pretty much the point where it just fits. I think even some of the Adventure Path stuff is written with it specifically in mind.
And the fans appreciate that! Being able to combine major works together is a feature that I will take advantage of.
So what am I missing? Aside from not having the Great Beyond book, of course. What's kept me from really getting into the Golarion cosmology was its apparent lack of structure.
I guess I just never really understood what the concept was. Aside from taking planes out of the 'wheel' model, I can't tell you what kind of model they got put into. Without some sort of Great Wheel/Orrery/World Tree/whatever framework, the greater cosmology is lost on me.
So is there a framework for the Golarion planes or are they just "here's a list of planes you can travel to"?
It's also in the campaign guide, but everything is metphorical. Adjacency isnt quite as rigid in reality. The planes do have a rough outline however. And are very far from just a list of planes.
Imagine a sphere of fluid floating in the void of space. The fluid is the Maelstrom.
Imagine things floating on the surface of the sphere, perhaps partially dissolving into it like soup crackers becoming soggy around the edges. These things, these crackers, are the planes, distinct at the center as something different from the Maelstrom, yet perhaps showing some shared traits at the edges where the two overlap and permeate each other.
Now consider that some of the floating things are similar in some ways and tend to gravitate toward each other and away from the other things of a different nature, and doing so over the three-dimensional surface of the sphere. This is how similarly-aligned planes tend to be "near" each other, at least in a cosmic multiversal sense.
Now back up to the first step, with the sphere of fluid floating in the void. Now invert the materials so it's a sphere of void floating in an infinite sea of fluid. And the planes now rest on the inner side of this bubble of void rather than the outer side of the bubble of fluid. Now you see that the Maelstrom is fluid and infinite, and what we know is just the outermost part of something unfathomly deep and mysterious.
There may be conduits through the fluid. Or contamination changing its fundamental essence. Light places and dark places. There may be other voids in the fluid, farther away than what even your typical planar traveler would consider "far," a lifetime of journeying far. These other voids may have similar structures to our example void, or they may be bizarre, like cubes of frozen void, or a cluster of tiny voids forming an aerosol in the fluid, or the interior of some cosmic entity's skull. It may have currents that steer you deep or force you back to your point of origin. It is unknown, and infinite.
But the short version is that the known planes associated with Golarion are on the inner surface of a metaphysical, multiversal "sphere."
Like soup crackers...? Really??? :-D
Creative Director
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The planar model for the Great Beyond actually comes from my homebrew world. I've always explained it as a big onion, with the Material Plane being in the center and the other planes either being on outward shells of the onion or parts of a "ghost onion" that overlays the onion.
But then Shrek came out, and now onions are more like ogres. Sean's sphere of fluid works better these days to describe it.
Soup crackers and onions. Why am I suddenly hungry? ;-D
[Eddie Murphy]Lets go make some WAFFLES!!![/Eddie Murphy]
Now I want to go home and watch the Shrek movies.
Soup crackers and onions. Why am I suddenly hungry? ;-D
Me too.
I'm considering a Calzone based multiverse.
SHWEETNESS
Awesome! I like it alot!
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Well, call me a heretic but in my Golarion TGB there will be Sigil with all the berk jinkin' (but no Outlands, never liked it anyway) and Quasielemental Planes too (with my beloved Plane of Vacuum).
As for the 'loths, I'll wait and see what Paizo has for the daemons (did I mention the daemon book should really really be coming out right after the devil one ? pwetty pweawse ?_
What I really miss is Mechanus, it was soo awesome (and Modrons are the best planar creatures ever).
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Creative Director
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Well, call me a heretic but in my Golarion TGB there will be Sigil with all the berk jinkin' (but no Outlands, never liked it anyway) and Quasielemental Planes too (with my beloved Plane of Vacuum).
As for the 'loths, I'll wait and see what Paizo has for the daemons (did I mention the daemon book should really really be coming out right after the devil one ? pwetty pweawse ?_
What I really miss is Mechanus, it was soo awesome (and Modrons are the best planar creatures ever).
I wouldn't call you a heretic at all. The Great Beyond is large enough to encompass whatever you want to add in. I mean, the outer sphere is large enough to physically contain all of the inner planes and the ethereal plane and the shadow plane and the first world and the energy planes AND the entire material plane (which is, itself, as large as the real-world universe), and contains all those in a way that they're too far away to be seen from the surface of the outer planes—aka, far enough that light emitted from the plane of fire has yet to reach the outer planes, and probably never will.
We're talking distances so vast that they're effectively infinite... although they're not. And since the outer planes are huge but not infinite (each of the ones we detail could be the size of our real-world universe while at the same time taking up less than a fraction of a percent of the surface area of the entire outer sphere), there's room for anything anyone can ever think up out there.
We can't officially put Sigil or Mechanus or Krynn or Oerth or the Outlands or any other WotC IP (or any other company's IP) into the Great Beyond, but we're pretty good about saying that there's enough room for whatever you want to put in there!
In fact, of all the D&D settings, only Spelljammer would have a tough time fitting in to the Great Beyond. And if you decide that there's just a part of the material pane universe that works that way... maybe it's just a single galaxy set up like that... mabye it works anyway!
Soup crackers and onions. Why am I suddenly hungry? ;-D
Because you're sick.
Onions. Bah!
I've always explained it as a big onion
It makes people cry?
It tastes awful, and the texture's worse?People want to forcefully cram it into every recipe, including chocolate pudding?
I'm sick of your cosmology. And with your cosmology, I mean onions. I like the Great Beyond. But I hate onions.
Know what I mean? Cause I'm not sure I do.
I'm considering a Calzone based multiverse.
So the outer planes are on a disc that folds back onto itself? What planes get to meet?
The elemental planes and material are the filling? There's a plane of fire, plane of air, plane of mushrooms?
Or are they in the crust?
That reminds me that I have half a pizza bread in the kitchen. I think I have a couple of planes in the fridge that be perfect on it.
And if you decide that there's just a part of the material pane universe that works that way... maybe it's just a single galaxy set up like that... mabye it works anyway!
If it's anywhere the size of our universe, we're talking about a lot of area. The observable universe alone spands 93 billion light years from one side to the other. We're talking about something like 4*10^32 square light years there. And that's only the observable part. Some assume that the actual size is at least 10^23 times that.
I can't begin to grasp what those numbers mean, except that somewhere in there we have silly people flying in magic spaceships fighting giant space hamsters.
After all, there's a planet whose whole surface was formed by erosion into first class hotels and spas.
I remember reading about the onion model in a online chat or blog or something and had trouble getting my head around it.
Soggy soup crackers? That makes sense to me. It's like the Great Wheel...of Cheese.
"Imagine the univers as an endless bubble of curd. The planes are were the curd has solidified."
One thing that I prefer about the Great Beyond, is its lack of quirkiness. Now don't get me wrong, the rules-and-regulations obsessed modrons were awesome, like something Isaac Asimov would have nightmares about, but as paragons of law? I just couldn't take them seriously in that role. Same goes for the goofy, utterly insane slaad; they were great, oozing with flavor, and hilarious to read about, yet I just didn't see them as the ultimate representation of chaos. The Great Beyond's axiomites and proteans are much more believable as the masters of law/chaos.
This is an excellent point. I did and do love the Modrons & the Slaadi, but you're right, not b/c they stood out as the exemplars of law & chaos. Moreso for flavor reasons (well, that and Xanxost over on the WOTC boards was just awesome!).
That said, I will most likely import the Slaadi into the Maelstrom in my homebrew world of the future.
What I will miss the most might be what I can't visualize importing comfortably: Sigil & the Lady of Pain. Plus the Factions. They were just fantastic. Not long ago I might have said I'd also miss the Yugoloths, but you know what, I really, really like the Daemons we've seen so far. I might end up leaving them behind after all...
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Creative Director
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If it's anywhere the size of our universe, we're talking about a lot of area. The observable universe alone spands 93 billion light years from one side to the other. We're talking about something like 4*10^32 square light years there. And that's only the observable part. Some assume that the actual size is at least 10^23 times that.
I can't begin to grasp what those numbers mean, except that somewhere in there we have silly people flying in magic spaceships fighting giant space hamsters.
After all, there's a planet whose whole surface was formed by erosion into first class hotels and spas.
Yeah; the numbers are indeed enormous. That's on purpose. It's basically a way of explaining how something of what is essentially an infinitely huge object can be contained within an infinitely larger area.
And if you decide that there's just a part of the material pane universe that works that way... maybe it's just a single galaxy set up like that... mabye it works anyway!If it's anywhere the size of our universe, we're talking about a lot of area. The observable universe alone spands 93 billion light years from one side to the other. We're talking about something like 4*10^32 square light years there. And that's only the observable part. Some assume that the actual size is at least 10^23 times that.
I can't begin to grasp what those numbers mean, except that somewhere in there we have silly people flying in magic spaceships fighting giant space hamsters.
After all, there's a planet whose whole surface was formed by erosion into first class hotels and spas.
Dude, you give me lots of laughs. I thank you.