I'm running a relatively large group (8 PCs) of relatively high level (15-17th level). Due to ability boosts, magic items, and differences in how the classes are structured, the ACs, attack rolls, and save bonuses of the PCs are vastly different from one to the other.
This means that some are impossible to hit, while others are auto-hits. Ditto with Saves. Also, some of my NPCs & Monsters are in the same boat due to the PC's radically different attack rolls. What to do, what to do?
Wow interesting dilema. I wonder if the question should be; Does PfRPG or 4e fix this issue? I have never done the analysis like you have, but as a 3.5 DM I have got the impression that this is a re-occuring problem. Although maybe not to this extreme. I will watch this thread in anticipation.
I'm also interested in what others experiences are.
I find this to be the major problem of 3.x. PCs can use magic items, buff spells, and feats to pump up AC, to hit, damage, saves, spell DCs, or skills to insane numbers by specializing in a couple of these areas.
To start with, when my players min/max like this, then it means they can handle a higher CR than normal characters of their level should be able to handle.
Occasionally, I'll use/design an NPC or monster to deal with a specific character's specialty. Unfortunately, half the time this has resulted in other characters dying.
Lastly, I heavily restrict the buff spells I allow my players to use from books other than the PHB. I once played a buffing cleric in a mid to high level 8 player campaign. Stacking buff spells from all the various WotC books made our power level insane. To the point where a CR less than 5 above our party level was a joke. The pain we put our DM through taught me a lot. :)
I'd be surprised if PFRPG fixes the problem as it is inherent in 3.x. 4e does seem to fix the problem (based on the first year's releases), but creates a new problem which bothered people enough they chose not to play it.
They mostly use just PH spells. Some PH2 for the duskblade and beguiler, but they're OK.
And I already make NPCs of their CR, then throw 4-8 of them at the PCs, which makes the EL 4 to 5 times higher than the player's levels.
From my, extremely limited, experience of that character level there isn't a whole lot to do.
It is just the nature of the game, multiplied for easier viewing. There is a similar skew of abilities at lower level, just they are so minute it is harder to see them.
My best suggestion, is keep the challenges around the level they are supposed to be. Just mix them up a bit so that differently focused characters shine at different times. (The high ACers have fun during the typical melee slugfest, but don't fair so well when up against dedicated grapplers, and such.)
Beyond that, a couple of key combats in an anti magic field does wonders for evening up the play field.
What it really comes down to is that if you do go out of your way to explicitly challenge the players at their strongest points you end up encouraging their current tactics. As counter intuitive as it seems, throwing weaker opponents at them might actually "train" them to not buff up so much. Except, hopefully, what they determine as the "end fight" of a plot line.
I'm running a relatively large group (8 PCs) of relatively high level (15-17th level). Due to ability boosts, magic items, and differences in how the classes are structured, the ACs, attack rolls, and save bonuses of the PCs are vastly different from one to the other.
This means that some are impossible to hit, while others are auto-hits. Ditto with Saves. Also, some of my NPCs & Monsters are in the same boat due to the PC's radically different attack rolls. What to do, what to do?
Do you have a specific encounter as an example?
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Well, my suggestion unfortunately would require a great deal of time on your part as GM.
I would suggest varying the encounters dramatically so each TYPE of character gets to shine and be the star on a rotating schedule. The others become somewhat secondary characters in that encounter.
The other suggestion is to make encounters composed of a wide variety of monsters so that their attacks, ACs and abilities range from low to high to fit your party. This takes a LOT of work to do often. You could have four or five different monsters in a single encounter designed to challenge each PC. That just sounds like a lot of work, but perhaps the more rewarding way rather than to make some PCs second-class characters for a while...
I am probably going to see a similar effect as my Age of Worms game trundles on. The drow psion/wizard is twiddling about with barely 20hp at level 6, while the Half-Orc Half-Troll Barbarian is stomping around with over 80. Meanwhile, the dragonborn paladin trying to be a tank has only 45, while the gnoll rogue has 40. Even the cloistered cleric human has 35.
The rogue has a decent attack bonus, but can't seem to roll well to save his life. The barbarian seems insane due to high strength and power attacking often, coupled with several streaks of excellent rolls. The paladin feels the hit to damage that his defensive specialization caused, but the auto-confirm of bless weapon has assisted in mitigating that.
Still, the paladin and barbarian took on a creature that was 4CRs higher than them, just the two of them (a distraction for the rest of the party to exploit). The barbarian went down fast, but the high AC of the paladin gave him time to get a lucky Paizo Crit Deck draw via Bless Weapon. The effect was a bleed that ultimately brought down the big bad. Ultimately, everyone at the table seems happy, but from previous experiences, I'm watching for the inevitable shift.
Regarding the OP: To me, its realistic. A warrior type who specializes in cutting up monsters will get very good at it, especially when he breaks the "realistic human" limit of level 10, and even more so when breaking the "superhuman" point of level 15 (rough approximations). So good in fact that compared even to his allies, he seems ridiculously overpowered in that arena.
The mage should be able to level battlefields. The fighter should be near impossible to kill, and what doesn't kill him should be enough to mutilate anyone else. The rogue should be nearly undetectable except to the keenest of senses, and the cleric has his god on call waiting. Its really just the same stuff as at level 1, just x20. If they don't work together, some of them will die. An enemy mage will shatter the fighter's mind unless the party mage interferes. An enemy fighter will carve up the mage unless the party fighter interferes. Etc etc. Problem cases occur when one character can reasonably do everything by himself, all day long. That is what causes the death of teamwork, and of fun, in my opinion.
I go now to sit in a lonely bar, drinking a beer in silent mourning for my old freind Teamwork. He was a good buddy in RPGs. He will be missed.
Learn from the comics. Every Spider-Man has his Spider-Eater that absolutely renders him helpless and requires help from his friends. And every Wolverine has his equal and opposite figure in Sabre-Tooth.
I've tried putting them against "evil versions of themselves." It was kind of effective, but not every NPC is going to be a ranger/scout archer. At least his Will save was only +4 at level 15...but now they just got done shopping, so he got a cloak of resistance and a mask of mind protecting (insight bonus to will), so he's closed off that chink in his armor.
Enervation, this is enervation,
Enervation the game I love play.
First we range touch them now
Then we turn them inside out.
Scream and shout
while inside out
Enervation no save throw salvation
Enervation -- it lowers all those saves!
Ray of Exhaustion this is Ray of Exhaustion
Ray of Exhaustion, cast it twice today!
First you get fatigued
Cast again and it's the end!
Energy drain this energy drain
Energy drain the DM favorite aim!
Take those saves down to sip --
Get them to zero and then hack their friends!
Ways to win -- They never end!
********
Seriously though why are you having a problem? Your players are out for blood -- you should be too! What's the issue? Think you'll kill them? Not likely, PC's live throw most anything, and even if you do it's only a game, either start new, or throw them a bone (the shin more than likely).
I'm running a relatively large group (8 PCs) of relatively high level (15-17th level). Due to ability boosts, magic items, and differences in how the classes are structured, the ACs, attack rolls, and save bonuses of the PCs are vastly different from one to the other.
This means that some are impossible to hit, while others are auto-hits. Ditto with Saves. Also, some of my NPCs & Monsters are in the same boat due to the PC's radically different attack rolls. What to do, what to do?
First step, talk to the players and point out that they should look into minimizing weaknesses as well as just maximizing strengths. The high level of customization available with 3.x makes such overly specialized characters possible (i.e., the melee tank that fails Will saves 90% of the time, etc.). However, in most cases it's fairly simple to fix with a feat (Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, etc.) and/or some magic items (stat boosters for Dex, Con, or Wis, etc.). In other cases, other feats (Weapon Finesse) and/or custom magic items (Quickened true strike 3-5 times per day, etc.) are an option; spell casters with touch/ranged touch spells don't necessarily need a high attack roll to hit since touch ACs are almost always much lower.
Second step, run the group against a variety of foes and don't pull any punches. High level characters shouldn't be coddled or protected by the DM against poor decisions (and not protecting weak points is a poor decision). Hopefully, they'll learn and start spending a portion of their resources on strengthening weak points instead of just piling everything on their strengths. Maybe they'll also start working as a team and using smart tactics, too.
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Our current DM is extremely afraid to kill us, so we end up slaughtering nearly everything we fight in 1-2 rounds because it's not even near challenging. He's afraid to put us up against something of even an equal power level, much less higher. As a result, the campaign is getting less and less fun because it goes along the lines of this: "Okay, I'll attack him and all I have to do is not roll a 1... okay, he's dead, cleave; he's dead, cleave; he's dead, cleave; ect." I would welcome the chance to fight something that could very well end in a TPK, actually. Everyone in the group is admittedly overpowered and level 8, and we're still just fighting thieves and brigands, things any one of us could drop in one hit. He's just been giving things more HP, and even then we can do (combined) more than triple it's normal HP in one round.
I'm playing a Sword Sage, we have a Feral Goliath Barbarian/Fighter, a Vow of Poverty Monk, an Aasimar Sorcerer, a werewolf Monk (also Vow of Poverty), A Fighter that specializes in tripping, a Warmage, an insane cleric with a Rod of Wonder, and a Hound Archon. Granted, there are only about 6 of us total per session, but that's our potential. He's also not using the standard XP system, he's basically just telling us to level when he feels like it.
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My age of worms group is level 18 and we have this as well. However, I don't think it's such an issue. There are encounters where some of the players get owned by save failure but others shine. Make sure you mix and match so that its not the same character getting toasted each time.
Also, the EL system falls apart badly at that level. In my experience, characters at level 17 are operating well above level. With buffs in place and gear, they often have save and attack mods about 3 levels higher than a standard progression would have you believe. If you factor this in and understande that 8 players means the group as a whole are operating at 2 EL's higher than a standard party then you;re looking at an effective party level of 23 (if your player characters are 18th levl).
I've also found that single monster encounters at this level are mostly a joke (unless the're much higher level things like dragons). Create encounters with lots of opponents, preferably with different abilities and then all your PC's get a chance to work to their strengths and you get to challenge their weaknesses.
Cheers
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Mordenkainen's Disjunction*... or several? And send in paragon Rust Monsters in a dead magic area, too.
Then everyone will be happy. Or mad. Or not. ;-)* If the spellcaster has the Shadow Weave feat, they can cast this in a dead magic area, IIRC.
Someone and I were talking about Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary (FANTASTIC BOOK- A MUST HAVE) and he said how he liked the template to make a rust monster into a bipedal creature, just to mess with the players' heads. That is just so sick and twisted I LOVE the idea.
I am a huge fan of using larger numbers of monsters in encounters. A really good mix of 6-10 monsters can be a challenge for any group, regardless of their spreads. And not just because if sheer numbers either. If you have a few encounters that have many monsters, with monsters designed to challenge each player in the group, you will see them go into a mad scramble of teamwork.
The fighter will have to defend the mage, because only the mage can deal with one monster that is ripping the fighter apart. The mage has to save the fighter because he is the only one that can deal with the monster threatening the cleric, etc... if they don't cover each other the monsters win.
But, again, it is darn hard to build such encounters on a regular basis. At least for me it is. lol
Most of the encounters my 16th level people go through are EL 20+. Usually a CR 20 BBEG, a couple CR 18 lieutenants, and about a dozen grunts of CR 12-16.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Two suggestions. The first has already been mentioned, which is target their weaknesses sometimes. If the AC tank can't be hit, have the melee brute switch to softer targets. If the enchanter can't touch the super will save cleric, have him target the low will fighter or rogue. There's multiple options here as well. If one character specializes in high AC, use touch attacks, will save, reflex saves, and non-saving throw effects on him.
The other is using feats like combat expertise and power attack for your villains. If a melee brute goes full power attack against a softer target, they'll then have a fair chance of missing, but the high AC target he'll never hit, so he'll have to stop power attacking, and therefore the high AC still provides a benefit to the character - i.e. he's not getting hit for huge power attack damage. Same theory with combat expertise for ACs that are too easy to hit for the melee specialist.
I think the effect that you are seeing is one of the prime reasons that the Paizo adventure paths chose not to go up to that high of levels or at most wrap up around those levels.
...and unfortunately that is my suggestion. If your players are feeling frustration from this effect then I would recommend wrapping up the campaign and starting a new one.
Sean Mahoney
This is indeed always a problem at higher levels and I would reiterate and back up the earlier comments about designing certain encounters to play to different characters strengths. However, I would also throw out another option based upon the following thoughts:
Inevitably high level campaigns start suffering from an over abundance of out of character knowledge. This will cause people to start min/maxing because they know how to game the system and are so familiar with the challenges they may face that they don't worry enough about their weaknesses. I faced this problem myself in my current campaign. They knew too much. They could meta game without ever even realizing it. I realized that what I needed to do was keep them guessing. I needed creatures that were always unique and new and different--without abandoning all that the players knew. This allows them to always doubt what they knew without disregarding it. I did this by creating advanced creatures with templates and class levels, or gave them random feats that allowed for all sorts of things they had scarcely ever seen. If the challenges are ever-changing and always interesting and always have at least some small twist...there is always a benefit to being vaguely well-rounded instead of completely min/maxing.
This of course led to a lot more work on my part, but if you forgive the brief but shameless plug, I fixed a lot of that too. (http://www.monsteradvancer.com) (This problem is what actually led to this project).
In the end the players still min/max but not nearly as much. They are concerned about closing down their weaknesses and having more utility to combat unknown situations. So, occasionally, they do decide against the next min/max item or feat to get something to handle the unknown or to give themselves their own new trick. They just love trying to be ready for what I might throw at them next!
Once the players know too much they second guess you. You can keep the familiar while still making it new and exciting. Keep them guessing and they will drive themselves to be more than one trick spell-warped dire ponies with ranger levels.
I'm running a relatively large group (8 PCs) of relatively high level (15-17th level). Due to ability boosts, magic items, and differences in how the classes are structured, the ACs, attack rolls, and save bonuses of the PCs are vastly different from one to the other.
This means that some are impossible to hit, while others are auto-hits. Ditto with Saves. Also, some of my NPCs & Monsters are in the same boat due to the PC's radically different attack rolls. What to do, what to do?
One approach is to rule that enhancement stacking is limited. The most restrictive limit would be only one item or effect may enhance (or take away from) each main ability or stat.
For example: +1 Chain Mail, +1 Ring of Protection, some spell of protection +2. Rather than +4 to AC, the buff would be that of the greatest value, or +2. When the spell wears off, the buff goes back to +1.
This could be extended to 2 items or effects per stat/ability. That is to say, only two strength buffs, only two AC buffs, etc. You could even pick a particular ability in advance that the PC can have buffed twice and everything else buffs once, with a one or more ability/stat chosen in advance that can never be buffed.
In role-playing terms, you could say that some magics are superior to or incompatible with others, supplanting or mitigating their effects.
There could even be some items that are so powerful that they swamp all other enchantments and take over the show, such as a particularly snobbish intelligent sword that mutes or negates other magics.
Does all this seem reasonable?
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That approach would just waist player money, quite honestly. Buffing one single bonus gets exorbitantly expensive, and that's why there are different bonus types such as luck, insight, deflection, and so on. They may be getting extra benefit at lower cost, but they are sacrificing item slots on the body that could be used for other things. And don't forget that if they get an item in an inappropriate item slot (custom made, of course) then it costs 1.5x as much, and if it doesn't take up an item slot at all it is twice as much. Also, stacking different magical effects on one item causes the other effects to be multiplied in price by 1.5 as well. The system already has ways to discourage certain things, you don't need to impose more walls
I use alternate methods (house rule) for hit/defense.
A few examples:
1) A character with Class BAB of 20: [ 20/15/10/5 ] Chooses at the beginning of the round how many attacks will be made, and all attacks use that bonus: 1 ATK: +20, 2 +15 each, 3 +10 each, 4 +5 each.
2) Note a characters class BAB separate from Feat/Magic bonuses. When the D20 is rolled for Hit, add the lesser of the roll or BAB:
If a player has +18 BAB, and rolls a 12 to hit, the lesser of the two is 12, so 12 is added for 24, then any applicable Feat/Magic bonuses.
3) A number of other systems, including DragonQuest use what is called "Margin of Success" - how much did you succeed by. Instead of a single roll to determine whether an attack is successful. Attacker rolls to hit; defender rolls to block and the greatest Margin of Success wins.
When characters have very high BAB, generally Mobs will have fairly high BAB's too. Thus using Margin's negates the automatic hits of high level characters when they are fighting higher level mobs.
Generally of late, I've been working on Incorporating some aspects of JAGSrevised into 3.5, but they are quite different beasts - I may just go with JAGS combat and figure out a conversion for BAB's and JAGs #actions per round. Players might hate it though, so it may just be a fun mental exercise.
I definitely don't want to change the way the players use their characters. We're lucky if we play once a month, so they're often rusty. Changing the rules mid-stream would just make everything too difficult.
The PCs just started a major "save the world" quest, so they don't want to change campaigns. They also really like their characters, and the interactions between their characters (I especially like the twins: one's a human, the other a half-drow!).
I'm experimenting with having lower level mooks being buffed by higher level commanders, like dragon shaman draconic auras, bardic music, and marshall auras. One of the next encounters I want to run includes kenku, which get double the normal flanking bonus. High level swashbucklers also get that, too, I believe. I should look into that.
For lawful-type mooks, it makes sense for them to get all flanky and aid anothery, but for chaotic types, what other options are there?
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Well, chaotic types would flank because it's a sneaky and underhanded tactic. As a Kenku Swashbuckler 13/ Rogue 3 with the feat to make the rogue's sneak attack go up as you gain swashbuckler levels, they would be gaining +6 to attack and +8d6 to damage while flanking, plus if there's a Marshal with Master of Tactics they also gain his charisma bonus to damage rolls while flanking as well, and if the marshal is also level 16 that would probably be a very high bonus, not to mention the major aura; would it be +4 at that time? Well, that could be another +4 to attack, plus a +13 BAB from swash levels, +2 from rogue, any bonuses from magic weapons, plus other various buffs.... yeah, I think my next character will be a Kenku Rogue/Swashbuckler
Keep in mind that the levels of rogue and swashbuckler only stack according to the text in the short description on the table of feats, the feat description does not allow the stacking of levels for sneak attack.
Sean Mahoney
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Daring Outlaw
You combine grace and stealth to deadly effect.
Prerequisite: Grace +1, sneak attack +2d6.
Benefit: Your rogue and swashbuckler levels stack for the
purpose of determining your competence bonus on Reflex
saves from the grace class feature and the swashbuckler’s
dodge bonus to AC. For example, a 7th-level rogue/4th-level
swashbuckler has grace +2 and gains a +2 dodge bonus to
AC, as if she were an 11th-level swashbuckler.
Your rogue and swashbuckler levels also stack for the
purpose of determining your sneak attack bonus damage.
For example, a 7th-level rogue/4th-level swashbuckler
would deal an extra 6d6 points of damage with her sneak
attack, as if she were an 11th-level rogue.
Keep in mind that the levels of rogue and swashbuckler only stack according to the text in the short description on the table of feats, the feat description does not allow the stacking of levels for sneak attack.
Sean Mahoney
Wrong. They do stack indeed.
And ninjaed by Hunterofthedusk :(
It's a tactic that's effective no matter the level. A couple of kobold fighters with shield wall and swarm fighting are nasty buggers, worse if you throw a marshal or dragon shaman in to help them out... while you are at it do the rite of the dragon for each of them and get Stone Fist as a 1/day spell like ability...
Bards, marshals, and dragon shamans are all great for making a fairly easy encounter hard since they increase everyone's potential... a cleric maybe dangerous with his spells but his lackeys aren't... a bard/marshal with lackeys and everyone in the room is dangerous!
If lawful mooks flank, chaotic mooks pig-pile. Even low CR critters can still grapple fairly well, if they are high strength and large. Try a group of CR 3 Ogres as minions for your CR 8-10 bad guy. Those Ogres have grapple mods of what, 12-14? Thats competitive against a level 8-10 PC. Five or six of those guys trying to hold down the fighter is a great tactic, and the description of being under nearly four tons of stinky, sweaty ogre is priceless.
If lawful mooks flank, chaotic mooks pig-pile. Even low CR critters can still grapple fairly well, if they are high strength and large. Try a group of CR 3 Ogres as minions for your CR 8-10 bad guy. Those Ogres have grapple mods of what, 12-14? Thats competitive against a level 8-10 PC. Five or six of those guys trying to hold down the fighter is a great tactic, and the description of being under nearly four tons of stinky, sweaty ogre is priceless.
Alas, in my campaign, most ogres perished in the Starfall that created the Crater Sea where their homeland used to be. :-(
But the (Mass) Enlarge Person spell is still around....
This is definitely where D&D 3.5e begins to suck, and unfortunately it looks like Pathfinder will do nothing about it. We always just end our campaigns at 15th level.
In terms of how to get along - have dumb creatures be straightforward so they get a chance to wipe the floor with them, but have the intelligent, scrying type opponents pinpoint their weaknesses and act on them. Only a moron, for example, tries to damage the party fighter until the casters are wiped. Concentrate fire. Et cetera. Other than that, don't sweat it too much, play, it'll come out in the wash, and then start again at level 1 and use slow advancement this time :-)
Well, chaotic types would flank because it's a sneaky and underhanded tactic. As a Kenku Swashbuckler 13/ Rogue 3 with the feat to make the rogue's sneak attack go up as you gain swashbuckler levels, they would be gaining +6 to attack and +8d6 to damage while flanking, plus if there's a Marshal with Master of Tactics they also gain his charisma bonus to damage rolls while flanking as well, and if the marshal is also level 16 that would probably be a very high bonus, not to mention the major aura; would it be +4 at that time? Well, that could be another +4 to attack, plus a +13 BAB from swash levels, +2 from rogue, any bonuses from magic weapons, plus other various buffs.... yeah, I think my next character will be a Kenku Rogue/Swashbuckler
Yeah, I statted out some kenku rogue 3/swashbuckler 12 goons, and they're pretty sick. I'm kind of a lazy DM, so I try to get attack rolls to be multiples of 5, and with a 22 Dex, they get a +20 to attack, +25 with +5 rapiers (1d6+10 damage with 14 Str and 16 Int). I figure they'll be the minions of a boss buffing them by +4 on attack rolls, and with Improved Flanking and Great Ally, they'll have +35 to attack rolls.
I tend to picture kenku as kif from CJ Cherryh's Chanur series, so mine are 7 feet tall, with long black robes with just their beaks sticking out of all that inky darkness, and +2 Str, +2 Dex, and -2 Con. This also makes them a little fragile, so I can use a lot of them, but the PCs can have fun mowing them down. They have +17 to Reflex saves and Evasion, so I don't have to worry about maximized delayed blast fireballs taking them out.
OK, I got all my PCs updated stats, and it wasn't as bad as I thought...except for the 17th level beguiler who didn't have magic armor or weapons!!! :-O But she does now, so we're cool.
Anyways, the 8 PCs and 1 cohort (9 good guys total), took on:
human vampire swashbuckler 3/duskblade 3/frostblade rake 10/bloodblade 3
human vampire spellthief 1/beguiler 6/assassin 1/arcane trickster 10
human vampire cleric 16
halfling vampire bard 15
6 human vampire swasbuckler 3/duskblade 3/frostblade rake 7
in 3 rounds. 2 hours of gaming, but still!
And the floor was solid ice, with a necromantic maze of magical blood that gave you a negative level if you crossed it (healed undead of 5 hp).
The frostblade rake and bloodblades are homebrew PrCs.
The frostblade rake is basically a tank with some cold magic abilities, usually associated with critting.
The bloodblade lets a vampire, etc., use their energy drain and blood sucking through their weapons.