Pathfinder beta questions


General Discussion (Prerelease)


I am getting ready to start playing in a Pathfinder beta campaign and I'm still trying to decide between a few classes what I want to play out of the box. I am trying to decide between Paladin, Fighter, Druid, Monk, or Sorceror. I was kind of leaning toward a melee character but am unsure how good they are in general in Pathfinder.

I know that in D&D 3.5 Wizards vastly were more powerful than melee characters at high levels. Does Pathfinder address this problem at all and do fighters/monks get outshined by wizards in the high levels?


daddystabz wrote:

I am getting ready to start playing in a Pathfinder beta campaign and I'm still trying to decide between a few classes what I want to play out of the box. I am trying to decide between Paladin, Fighter, Druid, Monk, or Sorceror. I was kind of leaning toward a melee character but am unsure how good they are in general in Pathfinder.

I know that in D&D 3.5 Wizards vastly were more powerful than melee characters at high levels. Does Pathfinder address this problem at all and do fighters/monks get outshined by wizards in the high levels?

Is power the only consideration?

Does your party need one of these roles to be filled moreso than another?

Either way, my take is:

Fighter got better. Bonuses to hit and damage, bonuses to AC. Some interesting feats they will qualify for before anyone else. It's a nice boost. But they're still the old fighter. Still have the same weaknesses and limitations.

Paladin got a very nice boost, but it's not in the Beta book. You have to search the paladin playtest forum to find the changes Jason proposed. These changes definitely replaced the paladin in Beta, and presumably the changed version from the post will be what we see in release (though, as with any class, there may be changes, but I think the changed version will be the baseline paladin). If you like paladins, then the changed paldin is far better than 3.5. Best improvement of the lot.

As far as I know, there are no changes to the monk. I haven't read them, or compared PF to 3.5 point by point, but the monk we have in our PF group looks exactly like the monks I came to know in 3.5.

Sprcerer got bloodlines. They look fairly attractive, but I haven't seen them in play. But definitely check them out if you're leaning toward a sorcerer.

Of all 11 classes, the only one to end up worse in PF than in 3.4 is druid. Honestly, if you want to play a druid, play the 3.5 version. Blend it a bit with Pathfinder by using the pathfinder class skills and HP progression, and maybe the PF animal companion (you will have to find it in the Druid playtest forum - animal companions got a boost that didn't make the printed/PDF beta version).

Wizards got a bit of a boost too. Especially universalists. And they are still the be-all and end-all of high-level dominance. Sorcerers and clerics can come close. Nobody else can. So if what you want is the class that won't be outshined at high levels, wizard is still the class to beat - just not quite a big a disparity as there was in 3.5.


Well, so far we have a Wizard, a Cleric, a Ranger, and a Barbarian. So I am kind of thinking maybe Paladin or Sorceror for me so far.


Monks do get new abilities! They now get more bonus feats (and have lists to choose from, not just "either disarm or trip") and Ki Power, which lets them do funny stuff.


Druids: They did overdo the polymorph nerfing, especially for druids. But the idea was great. They'll have to tweak it a bit, but then druids will be golden again.

Fighters: Fighters are still fighters. They still fight. They still don't fly around or shrug off all magic.

But they're now really good at dealing and avoiding damage. Probably best AC in the game, and hard to top with attack bonuses, too. Especially since their bonuses are like that all the time!

Liberty's Edge

I read about Pathfinder Beta playtesting last summer and it was originally advertised to run through August this year. I wrote a draft point paper about NPC classes and I figured I'd have time to make it professional-quality and submit it after I got back from Iraq; however, I find that the Good Idea Cut-Off Date (tm) has passed and the core rulebook has gone to press. Now that the clay tablets have dried, the cuneiform cannot be overwritten. Curses!

Is there still a forum for such submissions?


Are fighters much more effective at higher levels in Pathfinder than they were in D&D 3.5? I am hearing Wizards, Sorcs, and Clerics rule the high levels in Pathfinder still. How are Paladins now?


TAMorrison wrote:
I read about Pathfinder Beta playtesting last summer and it was originally advertised to run through August this year.

You must have misread. They always planned on releasing the book this August at Gen Con.

Well, maybe they wrote it up incorrectly at first.

You can still show us what you've come up with. It won't make it into the book, obviously, but lots of people are always on the lookout for interesting new stuff.


daddystabz wrote:
Are fighters much more effective at higher levels in Pathfinder than they were in D&D 3.5?

Not really. They get a few extra "pluses" to attacks and AC, and there are some new fighter feats.

daddystabz wrote:
How are Paladins now?

About the same, although they can improve a magic weapon instead of summoning a mount, if you like.


daddystabz wrote:
Well, so far we have a Wizard, a Cleric, a Ranger, and a Barbarian. So I am kind of thinking maybe Paladin or Sorceror for me so far.

Hmmm, no trapfinding.

Rogue is conspicuously missing from your list, including your list of classes you might consider playing.

Trap go BOOOM!!

Still, it's more about playing what you like.

Paladin go SMIIITE!!

Sorcerer go BOOOM!!

It's all win...

Liberty's Edge

KaeYoss wrote:
"You can still show us what you've come up with. It won't make it into the book, obviously, but lots of people are always on the lookout for interesting new stuff."

Whew! That's a relief. So, please pardon my technical ignorance here. I have a nine-page Word document. Where do I e-mail it? Or is there a fancy way I can just post it to this discussion forum?


TAMorrison wrote:
I have a nine-page Word document. Where do I e-mail it? Or is there a fancy way I can just post it to this discussion forum?

Copy and paste it right into a post.

Probably still shorter than most of my posts...

(Just kidding, by the way).


TAMorrison wrote:
Whew! That's a relief. So, please pardon my technical ignorance here. I have a nine-page Word document. Where do I e-mail it? Or is there a fancy way I can just post it to this discussion forum?

The easiest way I have found to share documents, without having some sort of web hosting, is to use Google Docs. You can upload your document then through the publishing option make it viewable to all, or select few. You will get a link to give viewers to follow. (You can even give some people permision to edit if you want.)

Baring that, I'd suggest turning it into a PDF (if you don't have Acrobat, you can try CutePDF (freeware) a try.), and uploading it to Driveway.com (you don't need to sign up for an account to use it, although they try and make you think you do.) and then posting the link so others can download it.

I say convert to PDF to ensure everyone can see it with the formating you intended. While OpenOffice and other processors can read Word, it often looks horrible and occasionally becomes unreadable with formating glitches.


DM_Blake wrote:

Probably still shorter than most of my posts...

(Just kidding, by the way).

[ No he's not :) ]

To the OP - I've seen just about every class played to at least mid-level under Pathfinder rules (exceptions are Druid only up to level 5, and Monk only up to level 3). I'm pretty confident that you will have fun, and with wise choices be plenty powerful.

That said, if you always found casters to be much more powerful before, that will probably continue simply based on your style of gameplay. In the games I've run, I've found the melee people to be the strongest at the highest levels, and Pathfinder has certainly added a lot to the fighter types out there (class features + skills + feats).

Enjoy!


Majuba wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
TAMorrison wrote:
I have a nine-page Word document. Where do I e-mail it? Or is there a fancy way I can just post it to this discussion forum?

Copy and paste it right into a post.

Probably still shorter than most of my posts...

(Just kidding, by the way).

[ No he's not :) ]

I was referring to pasting 9 pages into the forum post. Not the other thing...

Liberty's Edge

GENERAL
NPC classes should be dynamic enough to give PCs of all levels a respectable (but not overwhelming) challenge and adaptable enough to fit any campaign setting, race, or NPC profession. The trend for NPC classes, both in the 3.5 version and in the Pathfinder Game System, is for the NPC to be nearly the equal of a PC at low levels but to fall further and further behind as characters progress. What is necessary to restore a balance of challenge, playability and survivability is to reduce NPC powers at lower levels and to increase them at mid-levels and higher. As each NPC class represents a broad range of people – far broader than the more specialized PC classes – various options were added to portray them more accurately in a given milieu. These options make for more interesting and playable NPCs who, while still markedly inferior to PCs of all levels, will better fulfill their roles as challenging opponents and valuable allies.

NPC classes should be reserved for NPCs who are either non-elite or low-powered elite - in any case, possessing less talent and training than a character with a PC class. Simply put, an average citizen, hireling, or evildoer who is an NPC class is of a lower caliber than a PC hero or a main character (PC-class) villain or ally. After all, a person who had as much talent and training as a PC-class character would be one.

Under the standard rules, PCs are elite and gain maximum hit points per die at first level, giving them an advantage over their non-elite opponents, who gain only half maximum hit points per die. If the DM grants PCs extra hit points at first level to enhance their survivability, then it is recommended to build upon that progression, as per the chart below. NPCs should also gain an appropriate bonus.

=======================================================================
Campaign type Points Hit points
Non-elite 0 Half maximum hit points
Low fantasy 10 Maximum hit points
Standard fantasy 15 1 ½ times maximum hit points
High fantasy 20 Twice maximum hit points
Epic fantasy 25 2 ½ times maximum hit points
=======================================================================

All races may select any NPC class as their favored class, with the following exception: only those characters who are aristocrats at first level can select that class as their favored class. A character is either born into the upper class or not.

Allowing all races to choose an NPC class as a favored class benefits the game in three ways: 1) it eliminates the advantage that human and half-elf NPCs would otherwise have over NPC classes of other races, 2) it grants greater NPC survivability at higher levels, and 3) it gives a plausible rationale for the existence of high-level NPC classes – why else wouldn't every fifth-level NPC seek levels in a favored PC class?
=======================================================================

NPC classes have been structured to have limited powers at first level and to increase in power at second, fifth, tenth, fifteenth, and twentieth levels. This is to ensure PC survivability at lower levels while still maintaining the NPCs' level of challenge and utility at mid-level and higher.

ADEPT
Mystics, hermits, shamans, witch doctors, religious or quasi-religious people with little or no formal training in their art, adepts represent many different divine backgrounds, approaches, and focuses. These divine spellcasters worship revered ancestors, pantheons of lesser spirits, elemental forces, and/or forgotten or as-yet unascended gods. Those who worship mainstream deities either do not aspire to full ordination as clerics or are unable to do so because they are doctrinally unsound in their beliefs and practices.

At mid-level and higher, adepts are woefully underpowered compared to PC spellcasters. Adepts of all levels are extremely limited in their scope. The main hurdle for the existing Pathfinder adept is that her spell list has not grown since the 3.0 version of the game, while PC spellcasters have witnessed tremendous expansions in their class spell lists and abilities. Rather than determine a single new spell list for all adepts, several options were developed so that each individual adept could expand her choice of spells and abilities in accordance with her deity, background, and focus. Below are the proposed modifications to the adept NPC class:

Alignment: Any.
Hit die: d6.

Class skills
The adept’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Survival (Wis). Adepts are illiterate but may become literate by spending a skill rank.
Skill Ranks Per Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Adepts are skilled with all simple weapons and with her deity’s favored weapon. If the adept has no deity, then she is proficient in one light or one-handed martial weapon of her choice. Adepts are not proficient with any type of armor or shield.

Spells: An adept casts divine spells which are drawn from the adept spell list. Like a cleric, an adept must choose and prepare her spells in advance. Unlike a cleric, an adept cannot spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells.

To prepare or cast a spell, an adept must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an adept’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the adept’s Wisdom modifier.

Adepts, unlike wizards, do not acquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor do they prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them as divine inspiration or through their own strength of faith. Each adept must choose a time each day during which she must spend an hour in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain her daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether an adept can prepare spells.

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TABLE 14-1
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Spells
Level BAB Fort Ref Will -0- -1- -2- -3- -4- -5- Special
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 2 1 - - - - Orisons
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 2 1 - - - - Special ability
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 3 2 - - - -
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 3 2 0 - - -
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 3 2 1 - - - Special ability
6th +3 +2 +2 +5 3 2 1 - - -
7th +3 +2 +2 +5 3 3 2 - - -
8th +4 +2 +2 +6 3 3 2 0 - -
9th +4 +3 +3 +6 3 3 2 1 - -
10th +5 +3 +3 +7 3 3 2 1 - - Special ability
11th +5 +3 +3 +7 3 3 3 2 - -
12th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 3 3 3 2 0 -
13th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 3 3 3 2 1 -
14th +7/+2 +4 +4 +9 3 3 3 2 1 -
15th +7/+2 +5 +5 +9 3 3 3 3 2 - Special ability
16th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 3 3 3 3 2 0
17th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 3 3 3 3 2 1
18th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 3 3 3 3 2 1
19th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 3 3 3 3 3 2
20th +10/+5 +6 +6 +12 3 3 3 3 3 2 Special ability
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Like other spellcasters, an adept can cast only a certain number of spells of each level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table 14-1. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score.Where Table 14-1 indicates that the adept gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Wisdom score for that spell level.

Each adept has a particular holy symbol (as a divine focus) according to the adept’s magical tradition.

Orisons (Ex): As per the cleric PC class.

Special ability: The adept gains a special ability from the below list. Once chosen, it cannot be changed.

Ancestral knowledge (Ex): Prerequisite: Knowledge (history) 1. The spirits of the adept’s revered ancestors reward her devotion by revealing secret knowledge. All skills for which the adept has a racial bonus become class skills. If the adept has no racial skill bonuses, then she may choose any one skill to become a class skill. In addition, the adept gains three skill points, which may be applied to any adept class skill (including those newly acquired via this ability). The adept may select this ability only once.

Animal companion (Su): Prerequisite: Handle Animal 2, Knowledge (nature) 2, Wild empathy. Nature rewards the adept’s devotion to her environment. The adept can summon an animal companion just as a druid of three levels lower. If the adept gains the ability to summon an animal companion from another class, these levels stack. The adept may select this ability only once.
Special: If the adept also has the Animal domain, she may summon an animal companion as a druid of
equal level; however, she may have only one animal companion at any time.

Arcane revelation (Ex): Prerequisites: Wisdom 13, Knowledge (arcane) 1. The adept’s focus of worship rewards the adept’s fascination with the arcane by revealing secret knowledge. The adept gains a number of levels of spells from either the bard or the sorcerer spell list equal to the number of ranks she has in Knowledge (arcane) or up to the highest-level spell she may cast, whichever is lower. (For example, a fifth-level adept with a 13 Wisdom and five ranks in Knowledge (arcane) could choose two levels of spells: two first-level bard or sorcerer spells or one second-level bard or sorcerer spell.) Zero-level spells are considered to be ½-level for purposes of this ability. All spells gained are considered divine spells. This ability may be selected multiple times.

Bonus spell (Ex): Prerequisite: Wisdom 13. The adept gains one bonus spell. She may choose one spell of a level equal to one less than the highest level she may cast from either the cleric, bard, or the druid class spell list, or she may choose one spell of a level equal to two less than the highest level she may cast from the sorcerer class spell list. The adept may not choose spells that are prohibited due to alignment, such as an evil spell for a good adept. All spells gained are considered divine spells. This ability may be selected multiple times.

Chosen bloodline (Su): Prerequisites: Knowledge (arcane) 2, Skill Focus (Knowledge (arcane)). The adept’s ancestors were from a rare lineage, the power of which manifests itself incrementally as the adept grows in experience. The adept gains one of the following sorcerer powers: aberrant, abyssal, celestial, demonic, or undead. (Exception: Aasimar characters must choose celestial; tiefling characters must choose abyssal or demonic.) The adept advances in abilities as a sorcerer of half her adept level. All spells gained by this ability are divine spells. If the adept gains the same sorcerer power from another source, then the levels do not stack unless otherwise stated. If the adept multi-classes to become a sorcerer, then the character must choose the same sorcerer power she had as an adept. The adept may select this ability only once.

Divine revelation (Ex): Prerequisite: Wisdom 13, Knowledge (nature or religion) 1. The adept’s focus of worship rewards her devotion to her faith by revealing secret knowledge. The adept gains a number of levels of spells from either the cleric or the druid spell list equal to the number of ranks she has in appropriate skill (Knowledge (religion) for cleric spells, Knowledge (nature) for druid spells) or up to the highest-level spell she may cast, whichever is lower. (For example, a tenth-level adept with a 13 Wisdom, five ranks in Knowledge (nature) and one rank in Knowledge (religion) could choose three levels of druid spells or one level of cleric spells: three first-level druid spells, or one first-level and one second-level druid spell, or one third-level druid spell, or a single first-level cleric spell.) Zero-level spells are considered to be ½-level for purposes of this ability. This ability can be selected multiple times.

Domain (Su): Prerequisites: Knowledge (religion) 2, Wisdom 13, no more than one “step” difference in alignment with chosen focus of worship (deity or other). The adept’s focus of worship rewards her devotion by granting her special powers. The adept gains an appropriate cleric domain from those related to her focus of worship, but must abide by all the same rules and restrictions a cleric does. The adept advances in domain abilities as a cleric of half her adept level. If the adept gains or benefits from the same domain from another source, the levels do not stack unless otherwise stated (e.g., Radiant Servant of Pelor). If the adept gains a new domain that is in direct conflict with an old domain (i.e., Good and Evil, Law and Chaos, etc.), the character loses all abilities gained from her old domain(s). The adept may select this ability only once.

Summon Familiar (Su): Prerequisite: none. The adept can summon a familiar just as a sorcerer of equal level. The adept can benefit from feats affecting familiars as a sorcerer of equal level. If the adept gains the ability to summon a familiar from another class, these levels stack to determine familiar abilities. The adept may select this ability only once.

Item creation feat (Ex): Prerequisite: special. The adept gains one item creation feat for which she has the prerequisites. This ability may be selected multiple times, applying to a new item creation feat each time. Note that the adept must have four ranks in Knowledge (literacy) to take the Scribe Scroll feat.

Monster’s ally (Ex): Prerequisites: Charisma 10, Knowledge (arcane) 5, Summon Familiar, Spell Focus (conjuration). The adept’s focus of worship rewards her affinity for summoning creatures. The adept gains the spells monster summoning I-V as additions to her class spell list. This ability can be selected only once.

Mystic revelation (Ex): Prerequisite: none. The adept gains two skill ranks, which may be applied only to adept skills. This ability can be selected multiple times. This ability does not confer the ability to exceed maximum skill ranks per level in any skill.

Nature’s ally (Ex): Prerequisites: Charisma 10, Knowledge (nature) 5, Wild Empathy, Spell Focus (conjuration). The adept’s affinity for nature allows her to call on the aid of nature’s creatures, much like a druid can. The adept gains the spells summon nature’s ally I-V as additions to her class spell list. This does not confer the ability to summon creatures spontaneously. This ability can be selected only once.

School focus (Su): Prerequisites: Wisdom 13, Spellcraft 2, Spell Focus (any). The adept’s focus of worship rewards her specialization in her chosen school of magic by revealing secret knowledge. The adept gains a number of levels of spells equal to the number of ranks she has in Spellcraft or up to the highest-level spell she may cast, whichever is lower. She may choose from any PC class spell list spells from the same school of magic as her Spell Focus feat, or universal spells. (For example, a fifteenth-level adept with a 13 Wisdom, five ranks in Spellcraft, and the Spell Focus (conjuration) feat could choose three first-level conjuration spells, or one first-level and one second-level conjuration spell, or one third-level conjuration spell. If her Wisdom were 14, she would have been able to cast fourth-level spells and thus could have chosen up to four levels of conjuration spells from any PC class spell list.) Zero-level spells are considered to be ½-level for purposes of this ability. The adept may choose spells from any PC class spell list, but may not choose spells that are prohibited due to alignment, such as a chaotic spell for a lawful adept. This ability applies to only one school of magic, even if the adept has more than one Spell Focus feat. All spells gained are considered divine spells. The adept may choose this ability multiple times, applying it to the same or a different school of magic for which she has a Spell Focus feat.

Self-Sufficient (Ex): Prerequisites: Heal 1, Survival 1. The adept gains the Self-Sufficient feat. This ability can be selected only once.

Turn undead (Su): Prerequisites: Wisdom 13, Knowledge (religion) 5, plus one of the following: Death domain, Sun domain, Spell Focus (necromancy), or Chosen Bloodline. The adept’s focus of worship is strongly associated with either banishing or commanding undead; through her piety and devotion, the adept is granted similar power. The adept can turn or rebuke undead as a cleric of three levels lower. An adept with the Sun domain or Chosen Bloodline (celestial) channels positive energy to turn undead; an adept with the Death domain, Chosen Bloodline (abyssal, demonic, or undead), or Spell Focus (necromancy) channels negative energy to rebuke undead. The adept can use this power a number of times equal to one plus her Charisma modifier (minimum one). This ability can be selected only once.

Wild empathy (Su): Prerequisites: Charisma 10, Handle Animal 1, Knowledge (nature) 1. The adept gains the wild empathy ability as a druid of equal level. This ability may be selected only once.

Witch doctor (Ex): Prerequisites: Craft (alchemy) 1, Craft (poison) 1. The adept’s focus of worship reveals secret recipes for harmful materials. The adept gains a +2 bonus to Craft (alchemy) and Craft (poison). This ability may be selected only once.

Wounder (Ex): Prerequisites: Knowledge (religion) 2, non-good alignment. The adept’s focus of worship rewards her dedication to inflicting harm. The adept gains inflict spells corresponding to the cure spells on her class spell list (i.e., L1 – inflict light wounds, L2 – inflict moderate wounds, L3 – inflict serious wounds, etc.)

Adept Spell List
Adepts choose their spells from the following list:
0 Level: create water, detect magic, detect poison, ghost sound, guidance, light, mending, purify food and drink, stabilize, touch of fatigue.
1st Level: bless, burning hands, cause fear, command, comprehend languages, cure light wounds, detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, endure elements, magic weapon, obscuring mist, protection from chaos, protection from evil, protection from good, protection from law, sleep.
2nd Level: aid, animal trance, bear’s endurance, bull’s strength, cat’s grace, cure moderate wounds, darkness, delay poison, invisibility, lesser restoration, mirror image, resist energy, scorching ray, see invisibility, web.
3rd Level: animate dead, beast shape I, bestow curse, contagion, continual flame, cure serious wounds, daylight, deep slumber, deeper darkness, flame arrow, lightning bolt, magic vestment, neutralize poison, remove curse, remove disease, tongues.
4th Level: beast shape II, cure critical wounds, elemental body I, fear, greater magic weapon, giant vermin, haste, minor creation, restoration, slow, stoneskin, wall of fire.
5th Level: atonement, beast shape III, break enchantment, commune, elemental body II, heal, major creation, plant shape I, polymorph, raise dead, scrying, true seeing, wall of stone.

ARISTOCRAT
Although capable of defending herself should the need arise, the primary focus of the aristocrat is to live well. Fighting is secondary to, and often contrary to, the aristocrat's goal of administering and expanding her source of wealth. However, being a member of the recognized and accepted elite of her society means that others generally look to the aristocrat for leadership. Thus, when an aristocrat does choose to fight, her wealth and position ensure that she is rarely alone.

=======================================================================
Like all 3.0/3.5 NPC classes, the aristocrat can challenge a low-level PC, but at mid-level and higher she is outclassed far beyond what her CR would indicate. Add to this the absurdity that an aristocrat can progress to 20th level without gaining a single rank in Knowledge (nobility) and the need for reform is clear. The below builds upon the primary strength of the aristocrat: her privileged socioeconomic status, which confers a position of legitimate authority, access to the best her society has to offer, and inside knowledge of the blue-blooded elite.
=======================================================================

Alignment: Any.
Hit die: d8.

Class skills
The aristocrat’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (administrator) (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Survival (Wis).
Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The aristocrat is proficient in all simple and martial weapons, with light and medium armor, and with shields (but not tower shields).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
TABLE 14-2
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Bonus feat, It takes one to know one
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Bonus feat
3rd +2 +1 +1 +3
4th +3 +1 +1 +4
5th +3 +1 +1 +4 Divine right to rule
6th +4 +2 +2 +5
7th +5 +2 +2 +5
8th +6/+1 +2 +2 +6
9th +6/+1 +3 +3 +6
10th +7/+2 +3 +3 +7 Great renown
11th +8/+3 +3 +3 +7
12th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8
13th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8
14th +10/+5 +4 +4 +9
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +5 +9 Improved cohort
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +6 +11
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +6 +11
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Greater cohort
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Bonus feat: Choose one of the following: Heavy Armor Proficiency, Mounted Combat, Tower Shield Proficiency, Skill Focus (Profession (administrator)), Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Persuasive, Open Mind, or Weapon Finesse. The character must have the appropriate prerequisites for the chosen feat.

It takes one to know one (Ex): At first level, the aristocrat character automatically gains one rank in Knowledge (nobility) and the feat Skill Focus (Knowledge (nobility)). At fifth level and every five levels thereafter, the aristocrat gains another rank in Knowledge (nobility). This does not confer the ability to exceed the maximum ranks allowed per level in this skill.

Divine right to rule (Ex): The aristocrat gains the Leadership feat, even though she is not yet sixth level.

Great renown (Ex): The aristocrat's reputation has spread such that she gains a +2 modifier on her Leadership feat. For every five levels above 10th, the bonus increases by +2, or +4 at 15th level and +6 at 20th level. This bonus stacks with all other bonuses from magic, high Charisma, etc.

Improved Cohort (Ex): The aristocrat may have a cohort of a level up to two levels higher than would normally be allowed for the Leadership feat (i.e., up to her own level), or two cohorts of normal level.

Greater Cohort (Ex): The aristocrat may have a cohort of a level up to four levels higher than would normally be allowed for the Leadership feat (i.e., up to two levels higher than her own), or two cohorts of a level up to two levels higher than would normally be allowed for the Leadership feat, or four cohorts of normal level.

COMMONER
These are the simple folk of the land, people who seek to live their lives as best they can in peace and comfort. Although some may be subject to participation in their local militia or watch, commoners as a whole lack the skills and training necessary to participate in adventures or military campaigns as anything other than a noncombatant (porter, carpenter, camp follower, and the like). The commoners’ only strength is the fact that they are everywhere providing the food, goods, and services upon which the economy depends. They are therefore the anonymous masses who provide the tax base for their government as well as a good source of local gossip.

=======================================================================
Oddly enough, although the commoner is the least inclined to fight and the least likely to survive should he do so, most random population tables are skewed to have a commoner as the highest-level NPC in any given populated area. This amazing feat of survival can only be attributed to uncommon luck.
=======================================================================

Alignment: Any.
Hit die: d6.

Class skills
The commoner’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (any) (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Knowledge (local) (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (any) (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis).
Skill Ranks Per Level: 2 + Int modifier.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
TABLE 14-3
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +0 +0 +0 +0 Face in the crowd, I live here
2nd +1 +0 +0 +0 Seen the elephant
3rd +1 +1 +1 +1
4th +2 +1 +1 +1
5th +2 +1 +1 +1 Friends in high places
6th +3 +2 +2 +2
7th +3 +2 +2 +2
8th +4 +2 +2 +2
9th +4 +3 +3 +3
10th +5 +3 +3 +3 Lucky to be alive
11th +5 +3 +3 +3
12th +6/+1 +4 +4 +4
13th +6/+1 +4 +4 +4
14th +7/+2 +4 +4 +4
15th +7/+2 +5 +5 +5 Astounding luck
16th +8/+3 +5 +5 +5
17th +8/+3 +5 +5 +5
18th +9/+4 +6 +6 +6
19th +9/+4 +6 +6 +6
20th +10/+5 +6 +6 +6 Outrageous luck
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The commoner is proficient in one simple weapon. He is not proficient with any other weapons, nor is he proficient with any type of armor or shield.

Face in the crowd (Ex): The commoner blends in with the local population because he is the local population. When among five or more other commoners from his native milieu, the commoner gains a +2 on Stealth checks to avoid being singled out and/or recognized. Anyone who regularly socializes with the commoner at least six months a year is immune to this effect.

I live here (Ex): The commoner gains one free rank in Knowledge (local), applicable to his native milieu only. The commoner gains another free rank in Knowledge (local) at fifth level and every five levels thereafter, provided that he spends at least six months a year in his native milieu.

Seen the elephant (Ex): The commoner has survived enough risky situations to give him a story or two that would impress his neighbors, friends and family. The commoner gains a +1 bonus on Charisma-based skills when dealing with other commoners from his native milieu. This bonus increases to +2 at fifth level and increases by one every five levels thereafter.

Friends in high places (Ex): Considering the number of adventures required to reach this level, the commoner could not have survived this long without a more-powerful character looking out for him. The commoner has earned the friendship (or at least the patronage) of a non-commoner NPC through his service to this person. The NPC’s level is equal to the commoner’s level +2 plus the commoner’s Charisma modifier. (Essentially, treat the commoner as if he were a follower of an NPC with the Leadership feat.)

Lucky to be alive (Ex): Considering the number of adventures required to reach this level, the commoner could not have survived this long without some divine providence looking out for him. Once per day, the commoner can apply a +1 luck bonus to any save. This bonus increases by +1 every ten levels.

Astounding luck (Ex): Considering the number of adventures required to reach this level, the commoner could not have survived this long without a the watchful eye of a guardian angel. Once per week, any die roll that would kill the commoner (attack, damage, skill check, or save) must be re-rolled. The commoner gets the benefit of the more favorable roll. If the commoner is struck with an attack, either the attack roll or the damage roll may be re-rolled.

Outrageous luck (Su): Considering the number of adventures required to reach this level, the commoner could not have survived this long without outrageous and blatant DM cheating. Once per week, any die roll that would harm the commoner (attack, damage, skill check, or save) may be considered either the minimum or the maximum die roll possible, whichever is most favorable to the commoner. (If the commoner is struck with an attack, it is typically most favorable for the attack roll to become a 1 vice minimizing damage.)

EXPERT
The university-educated sage, the brilliant inventor, the master architect, the professional artisan, the seasoned sailor – the expert is the unquestioned best at what she does because she has undergone extensive training in her chosen field of study, far above that which others may pursue. Although the expert is capable of defending herself in combat if need be, her primary defenses are her unparalleled talents and her value to her employer and/or clientele.

=======================================================================
The most versatile of the NPC classes, the expert is quite capable of accurately portraying a wide variety of skilled people. The only shortfall of the expert class is that she is no better at a given skill than any other character. Indeed, with her bare minimum of martial skills, it would be difficult for the Pathfinder game system expert to advance in levels to improve her skills. Therefore, the below modifications are suggested so that a PC (or NPC) can benefit from hiring an expert, even one of lower level.
=======================================================================

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
TABLE 14-4
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Skill focus, specialist training
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Skill mastery
3rd +2 +1 +1 +3
4th +3 +1 +1 +4
5th +3 +1 +1 +4 Taking the time to do it right,
reputation for quality
6th +4 +2 +2 +5
7th +5 +2 +2 +5
8th +6/+1 +2 +2 +6
9th +6/+1 +3 +3 +6
10th +7/+2 +3 +3 +7 Improved skill mastery,
reputation for excellence
11th +8/+3 +3 +3 +7
12th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8
13th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8
14th +10/+5 +4 +4 +9
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +5 +9 Greater skill mastery,
reputation for brilliance
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +6 +11
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +6 +11
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Art of the master, world renown
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Alignment: Any.
Hit die: d8.

Class skills
Choose any ten skills as class skills.
Skill Ranks Per Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The expert is proficient in all simple weapons and with light armor.

Skill Focus: The expert gains the Skill Focus feat for any one class skill for which the expert has at least one rank.

Specialist training (Ex): The expert gains a +2 competence bonus on any one class skill for which the expert has a Skill Focus feat and maximum ranks. At fifth level, and at every five levels thereafter, the expert gains an additional +2 bonus, which can be used on any class skill for which the expert has both maximum ranks and a Skill Focus feat. This bonus stacks with all others. Thus, at fifth level, an expert could have one skill with a +4 bonus or two skills with a +2 bonus; at tenth level, an expert could have one skill with a +6 bonus, or one skill with a +4 bonus and one skill with a +2 bonus, or three skills with a +2 bonus, etc. If the expert fails to maintain maximum ranks and a Skill Focus feat for a particular skill, she loses all benefits from this ability for that skill. The expert needs constant practice to keep her skills sharp.

Skill mastery (Ex): The expert can take 10 on any skill for which she has a Skill Focus feat.

Taking the time to do it right (Ex): Once per day, the expert may expend five times the normal amount of time to take 20 on a class skill for which she has specialist training.

Reputation for quality (Ex): Customers are willing to pay more for goods made by master craftsmen and artisans. When seeking profit from a skill for which the expert has specialist training, the expert may charge 5% × her specialist bonus over the normal price (+10% at +2, +20% at +4, etc.).

Improved skill mastery (Ex): Twice per day, the expert can take 20 on a class skill for which she has specialist training by expending only four times the normal time.

Reputation for excellence (Ex): Customers are willing to pay more for goods made by master craftsmen and artisans. When seeking profit from a skill for which the expert has specialist training, the expert may charge 10% × her specialist bonus over the normal price (+20% at +2, +40% at +4, etc.).

Greater skill mastery (Ex): Three times per day, the expert can take 20 on a class skill for which she has specialist training by expending only three times the normal time.

Reputation for brilliance (Ex): Customers are willing to pay more for goods made by master craftsmen and artisans. When seeking profit from a skill for which the expert has specialist training, the expert may charge 15% × her specialist bonus over the normal price (+30% at +2, +60% at +4, etc.).

Art of the master (Ex): Four times a day, the expert can take 20 on a class skill for which she has specialist training by expending only twice the normal time. Note, however, no matter how high a level the expert is, the time required to take 20 via this ability will never be less than twice the normal time required.

World renown (Ex): Customers are willing to pay more for goods made by master craftsmen and artisans. When seeking profit from a skill for which the expert has specialist training, the expert may charge 20% × her specialist bonus over the normal price (+40% at +2, +80% at +4, etc.).

WARRIOR
The city guard, the jungle savage, the steppe nomad, the private soldier, the local thug or bandit – the warrior NPC class encompasses all of these. Although she lacks the superlative training of the PC martial classes, the warrior nevertheless is a more-skilled combatant than any other NPC class. She is capable of being either a worthy adversary or a valuable ally for any PC.

=======================================================================
The problem with the 1st-level Pathfinder warrior is that she is only one feat shy of being a 1st-level fighter. At CR 1/2, that means that two of them are equal to one PC fighter, which presents survivability problems for low-level PCs. At 20th level, the problem is the opposite: the warrior is CR 19, but nowhere close to being equal to a 19th-level fighter. Also, there are many NPC races who, through inclination or physical limitations, will never use the Heavy Armor Proficiency and Tower Shield Proficiency feats given to them at 1st level. (For example, kobolds are too weak to manage such heavy armor and goblinoids much prefer stealth.) The recommendations below seek to broaden the scope of the warrior while realigning her capabilities with her CR.
=======================================================================

Alignment: Any.
Hit die: d10.

Class skills
The warrior’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Athletics (Str), Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Ride (Dex), Swim (Str).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
TABLE 14-5
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Template abilities I
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Template abilities II
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1
4th +4 +4 +1 +1
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Template abilities III
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Bonus feat
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Bonus feat
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Bonus feat
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The warrior is proficient in all simple and martial weapons, with light armor, and with shields (but not tower shields).

Template abilities I (Ex): Choose one of the following templates. Once chosen, it cannot be changed:
- Guard: Typical of law enforcement and security personnel in civilized lands and bodyguards in both civilized and uncivilized areas. The character gains 1 rank in Perception and 1 rank in Sense Motive, both of which are class skills.
- Irregular: Typical of savage races, frontiersmen, and other unschooled people who learned the martial trade outside of, or on the fringes of, civilized lands. The character is illiterate, but gains 0 ranks in Perception, 1 rank in Stealth, and 1 rank in Survival, all of which are class skills.
- Nomad: Typical of savage races that are practically born riding some kind of animal. The character is illiterate, but gains 1 rank in Handle Animal, 0 ranks in Perception, 1 rank in Ride, and 1 rank in Survival, all of which are class skills.
- Soldier: Typical of civilized, trained personnel whose primary vocation is war vice law enforcement or security. The character gains one of the following feats: Medium Armor Proficiency, Mounted Combat, Tower Shield Proficiency, or Weapon Focus.
- Thug: Typical of bandits and other violent criminals who live in civilized lands but who turn to crime for whatever reason. The character is illiterate, but gains 1 rank in Intimidate and Stealth, plus 0 ranks in Knowledge (local) and Perception, all of which are class skills.

Template abilities II (Ex): The warrior gains additional abilities per the template chosen at first level.
- Guard: Awareness
- Irregular: Choose one of the following special abilities:
Fast move 5' (Ex): This ability stacks with the Dash feat but does not stack with any other non-magical fast move ability.
One with the wild (Ex): Gain 1 rank each in Climb, Perception, Stealth, Survival, and Swim.
- Nomad: Bonus feat: Animal Affinity. If she already has the Animal Affinity feat, she gains any one mounted feat instead.
- Soldier: Bonus feat: Heavy Armor Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency, Tower Shield Proficiency, or a fighter bonus feat for which the character has the necessary prerequisites.
- Thug: Gain 1 rank in Climb, Intimidate, Knowledge (local), Perception, and Stealth.

Template abilities III (Ex): The warrior gains additional abilities per the template chosen at first level.
- Guard: Familiarity with authority (Ex): The guard can detect forgery with a successful Sense Motive check. This does not confer the ability to forge documents. The guard also gains one rank each in Perception and Sense Motive.
- Irregular: One with the wild (Ex): Gain 1 rank each in Climb, Perception, Stealth, Survival, and Swim.
- Nomad: Bonus feat: any one mounted feat, or any one archery feat.
- Soldier: Bonus feat: The soldier may choose one of the following feats: Heavy Armor Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency, Tower Shield Proficiency, or a fighter bonus feat for which the character has the necessary prerequisites.
- Thug: Gain 1 rank each in Climb, Intimidate, Knowledge (local), Perception, and Stealth.

Bonus feat (Ex): Warriors with any template gain one of the following feats: Heavy Armor Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency, Tower Shield Proficiency, or a fighter bonus feat for which the character has the necessary prerequisites.

=======================================================================
SKILLS
The following additional skills are intended to reflect abilities peculiar to NPC classes:

Knowledge (literacy) (Int) (trained only)
The character learns how to read and write.
Benefits: A character with this skill can read and write according to the level of skill the character has:
Ranks Ability
1 Can write own name and sound out one-syllable words in his
native language (“Ale”, “Inn”, “Stop”, etc.)
2 Can read and write simple text (two-syllable words) in
his native language. (“Bob ran from the dragon.”)
3 Can read and write all texts in his native language. Can
read and write simple texts (see above) in any foreign
language he knows.
4 Can read and write all texts in all languages he knows.
(This is the minimum skill level to read and/or write
magic texts, scrolls, and the like.)
Normal: A character without this skill cannot read or write at all.
Retries: No.
Special: All Pathfinder PC classes get this skill for free as a class skill (and thus are all treated as having four ranks in this skill at Level 1). However, DMs may decide that barbarians or other similar uncivilized classes or races are illiterate.

Profession (administrator) (Wis) (trained only)
The character knows how to handle the affairs of a plot of land upon which others toil (an estate, fiefdom, or country). This differs from a business in that the character does not necessarily have any skill in what the workers do, yet she has a greater degree of control over, and responsibility for, the people being administered.
Benefits: The character can make her holding operate more efficiently. For every 2 points above which the character's skill check exceeds the DC, her holding prospers by 5% greater than normal. For every point the check fails, her holding performs at 5% less than normal.
DC Situation
5 Booming economy: all trading partners are propering, perfect
weather for crops, character deals in a commodity or service
that is greatly in demand.
10 Normal
15 Recession: majority of trade is reduced, bad year for crops
(late frost, mid-year hail, scant rain, etc.), character
deals in a commodity or service that is not in great demand
or that has much competition
20 Depression: trade has almost dried up, massive crop failure
(locusts, drought, etc.)
40 Besieged: zero trade, zero food production
Normal: The character has no idea how to run an estate or govern a nation.
Retries: No.
Special: For every year a depression lasts, the DC increases by 5 (maximum 40) (i.e., DC 25 for the second year, DC 30 for the third year, DC 35 for the fourth year, and DC 40 for the fifth year and all subsequent years).

Liberty's Edge

...And the formatting looks like garbage. :(


TAMorrison wrote:
A freakin lot of stuff!

Holy Beejolee!

I thought my posts were long...

You sir, take the cake. And eat it too. And the cake platter.

Very interesting stuff. Is it all yours?

Dark Archive

daddystabz wrote:
Are fighters much more effective at higher levels in Pathfinder than they were in D&D 3.5? I am hearing Wizards, Sorcs, and Clerics rule the high levels in Pathfinder still. How are Paladins now?

My own 16th level fighter PC is much more versatile than in 3E; for example, bonuses from some feats scale up (Dodge), and feats like Cleave are not just "required-for-X-and-then-never-used-again"-type of "wasted" resources anymore but active tactical options in some situations. And feats requiring full attack action are also a bit different from each other -- in some fights, using Improved Vital Strike might be better for me, while other times I should use Great Cleave or Backswing or Devastating Blow. And the official playtest feats posted by Jason include some nice Critical Feats, too.

Also, Weapon and Armor Training are great abilities... you get "extra" bonuses, and my favorite thing is that armor check penalties are vastly reduced (my fighter actually has no penalties at all in his magical armor).

Liberty's Edge

DM_Blake wrote:
TAMorrison wrote:
A freakin lot of stuff!

Holy Beejolee!

I thought my posts were long...

You sir, take the cake. And eat it too. And the cake platter.

Very interesting stuff. Is it all yours?

What I wrote is based off the Pathfinder RPG NPC classes - I just revised what was in the Beta release because it needed to be done and it looked like nobody else had done so. However, all the formatting that I tried so hard to make look so good in Word (and later in the typing window of the forum) ended up looking like garbage in the post - different font, spacing removed, etc. Oh, well. :S


TAMorrison wrote:
What I wrote is based off the Pathfinder RPG NPC classes - I just revised what was in the Beta release because it needed to be done and it looked like nobody else had done so.

Careful about interacting with DM_Blake about this subject.

He will try to convince you that your seasoned sailor Expert is feeble and unable to survive the world outside the city.


Disenchanter wrote:
TAMorrison wrote:
What I wrote is based off the Pathfinder RPG NPC classes - I just revised what was in the Beta release because it needed to be done and it looked like nobody else had done so.

Careful about interacting with DM_Blake about this subject.

He will try to convince you that your seasoned sailor Expert is feeble and unable to survive the world outside the city.

Sour grapes.

And don't put words in my mouth.

All I will tell him or you or anyone else is that if I'm part of a party of adventurers, and we have an opening to fill, I won't fill it with an Expert. I will keep looking until I find someone who can pull his share of the load when the danger hits the fan deep in a dungeon somewhere.

Experts are not adventurers.

But they make fine seasoned sailors.

In fact, I prefer my sailors seasoned with a little oregano and maybe some rosemary. Not salted though - they're usually salty enough.

Liberty's Edge

Careful about interacting with DM_Blake about this subject.
He will try to convince you that your seasoned sailor Expert is feeble and unable to survive the world outside the city.

Sour grapes.

And don't put words in my mouth.

All I will tell him or you or anyone else is that if I'm part of a party of adventurers, and we have an opening to fill, I won't fill it with an Expert. I will keep looking until I find someone who can pull his share of the load when the danger hits the fan deep in a dungeon somewhere.

Experts are not adventurers.

But they make fine seasoned sailors.

That's the whole point of NPC classes, isn't it? To be all the people that we adventurers don't want to be.


TAMorrison wrote:
That's the whole point of NPC classes, isn't it? To be all the people that we adventurers don't want to be.

Exactly!

But don't say that to Disenchanter!

He'll tell you...

Well, I don't know what he'll tell you and I won't presume to put words in his mouth, but in his recent posts he staunchly advocated the possibility of playing the Explorer as a PC class.

And judging by his most recent post in this thread, he seems to be a little sore about the fact that he failed to convince me of the plausibility of the notion.


DM_Blake wrote:
TAMorrison wrote:
That's the whole point of NPC classes, isn't it? To be all the people that we adventurers don't want to be.

Exactly!

But don't say that to Disenchanter!

He'll tell you...

Well, I don't know what he'll tell you and I won't presume to put words in his mouth, but in his recent posts he staunchly advocated the possibility of playing the Explorer as a PC class.

And judging by his most recent post in this thread, he seems to be a little sore about the fact that he failed to convince me of the plausibility of the notion.

You won't put words in my mouth... But you're quick on the draw to be judgemental. That's worth noting.

And so we clear the air, our exchange over Experts boiled down to that characters of non-adventuring classes are feeble (the part I took exception to) and characters with adventuring classes aren't.

Despite my attempts to refute that just because the stat block said "Expert" on it without any other classes listed, didn't mean you ended up with the asthmatic librarian that constantly trips over his robes and risks breaking his hip, you seemed to be insisting it did.

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