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I have seen a growing trend lately towards people suggesting that certain topics be banned from the boards. The argument has been advanced that some topics are just hot button issues that lead to nothing but insults and arguments. I respectfully disagree. I believe, to paraphrase Shakespeare, the fault lies not in the topic, but in ourselves that we argue and insult.
I have been studying other cultures since I am a geography teacher, and I have come to the conclusion that western society is a rude society compared to other cultures. It seems that we place a certain degree of virtue in saying exactly what we think without considering how it will effect others. We also seem to take a lot of joy in telling others that they are wrong without taking the time to explain why we have reached a different conclusion. This became most clear to me while I was watching a cooking program on Food Network and one of the judges complemented a chef on a dish he had made. Another judge immediately jumped in with "are we eating the same food, because this is swill."
Rather than pushing for topics to be banned, perhaps we could push our fellow Paizonians to be more polite to each other. Rather than being so quick to jump in and tell someone that they are wrong, tell them what you believe and why. I honestly believe that banning some topics will not stop people from arguing and insulting each other, because I have seen it happen in almost every topic we discuss here. Rather, I believe that the answer is just to try and be nicer to our fellow beings and strive for enlightenment rather than victory. At least that's my opinion.
Lately? Oh please. Were you even here for the Edition Wars™.
I do not need the Nice Police telling me I can not say STFU n00b anymore.
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Paizoans are normally quite polite to one another, though there are a few examples where people "fall of the wagon" (as I have myself from time to time) or where certain topics tend to bring out the worst in certain people. That said, I totally agree that the problem is not with the topics but with the way people comport themselves in discussion. I am anti- banning certain topics, because what is good about Paizo is the exchange of ideas on all sorts of topics, not just RPGs.
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Here is what I originally wrote. I thought the thread slaad had eaten it.
I have noticed over the past few months a movement toward suggesting banning certain topics because they are hot button issues. It is often suggested that these topics just lead to insults and arguments and waste bandwidth. I repectfully disagree with that assertion. I believe that, to paraphrase Shakespeare, the fault lies not in the topics but in ourselves.
I have begun to notice that western society is a rude society when you compare it to other cultures around the world. I came t this realization after watching the Japanese version of Iron Chef and compared it Iron Chef America. On Iron Chef, even when the members of the panel disagree with each other on a dish or are giving a negative opinion to the chef they always are polite about what they say. They normally express the idea as their opinion. Meanwhile the American judges tend to simply say something like this is awful, or I can't stand this. One judge disagreed with another in one episode by saying "are we eating the same food, because this is swill."
Perhaps, instead of encouraging the banning of certain topics, we could instead encourage each other to be more polite to each other. Rather then just telling someone they are wrong, we could instead express our belief and back it up with the facts that we have based it on. Lets remember that much of what we express in this environment is opinion. We should all just try to be a little nicer to each other. At least that is what I believe.
I agree 100%. Plenty of people have said things on these boards that have made me mad. It doesn't mean I want them to be shut down. I think it would be a tremendous loss to the Paizo community if we started banning subjects because someone felt threatened by them.
I have seen a growing trend lately towards people suggesting that certain topics be banned from the boards. The argument has been advanced that some topics are just hot button issues that lead to nothing but insults and arguments. I respectfully disagree. I believe, to paraphrase Shakespeare, the fault lies not in the topic, but in ourselves that we argue and insult.
I have been studying other cultures since I am a geography teacher, and I have come to the conclusion that western society is a rude society compared to other cultures. It seems that we place a certain degree of virtue in saying exactly what we think without considering how it will effect others. We also seem to take a lot of joy in telling others that they are wrong without taking the time to explain why we have reached a different conclusion. This became most clear to me while I was watching a cooking program on Food Network and one of the judges complemented a chef on a dish he had made. Another judge immediately jumped in with "are we eating the same food, because this is swill."
Rather than pushing for topics to be banned, perhaps we could push our fellow Paizonians to be more polite to each other. Rather than being so quick to jump in and tell someone that they are wrong, tell them what you believe and why. I honestly believe that banning some topics will not stop people from arguing and insulting each other, because I have seen it happen in almost every topic we discuss here. Rather, I believe that the answer is just to try and be nicer to our fellow beings and strive for enlightenment rather than victory. At least that's my opinion.
You're wrong.
;-)Seriously, we could always use a little more civility. Unfortunately, striving for enlightenment rather than victory is a tall order in the real world, let alone on a messageboard, where we are unfettered by most social norms.
Debates can be frustrating. Some will have a better grasp of a given issue, more generally, of how to make a good argument. Even when topical, well-considered posts are made, they get buried, because there is no way to filter out the crap. I don't have an answer. Perhaps some sort of rating system or other self-moderation?
What I do know is that stopping the discussion isn't the answer.
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Seriously, we could always use a little more civility. Unfortunately, striving for enlightenment rather than victory is a tall order in the real world, let alone on a messageboard, where we are unfettered by most social norms.
I agree that it's difficult but it can be done. The Civil Religious Discussion thread is proof of that. Moreover, as one of the philosophers said, it is the difficult things in life that are worth doing.
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Okay to try and explain my position normally I would say I have no problem with political discussion but lately I have seen things that make me sick to my stomach. Including posters pretty much saying relations of mine should be bombed to hell because of the country they live in. Have had there religion been made out to be a bunch of racist, sexist suicidal lunatics and when you try to respond to what these people say they either Ignore the evidence provided or try and twist what you say. So if that is the level of political discussion here then I say we are better off without it.
Making the insults more polite, and trust me, that is all you will accomplish, will not change minds.
I would hope that it is obvious that I am not saying lets all call each other names and be rude to one another. I just think that rudeness has its place.
When someone calls you a myopic, ignorant fool, there is a reason behind it. Often, it speaks more than the two page easy espousing the reasons someone disagrees.
Societies that do not simply speak their mind are not inherently less rude nor do they share any more goodwill. From the mouth of babes. When a young child speaks, it is often an unfiltered truth. I may be rude, but it can still very much be a truth that desperately needs telling.
A famous french comedian once said :
"You can laugh about anything, but not with anyone".
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I agree civility could be raised, but I also think thin skin should be addressed. I've had my here and there with a few posters, and I've had some greasy stuff thrown my way, but so what? Sometimes things get heated when people are passionate about certain topics. Am I mad at anyone? No bleeping way. I take it in stride, and I'd still love to game with quite a few people I disagree with politically or religiously because, on other threads, we agree almost perfectly on how we play the game.
Politics and religion are just facets of a person, and neither are important to me in deciding who I socialize with or game with, frankly. I have a lot of these same heated discussions with friends sitting on my couch, it doesn't keep us from going for a beer afterward :)
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Okay to try and explain my position normally I would say I have no problem with political discussion but lately I have seen things that make me sick to my stomach. Including posters pretty much saying relations of mine should be bombed to hell because of the country they live in. Have had there religion been made out to be a bunch of racist, sexist suicidal lunatics and when you try to respond to what these people say they either Ignore the evidence provided or try and twist what you say. So if that is the level of political discussion here then I say we are better off without it.
I can see where you are coming from. It can be difficult to ignore the jerks. Sometimes people just can't get past their prejudices and take that first step into a wider world. The key to dealing with those types of people is to know that you can't reach them and shouldn't even try. Rather than waste your time with people who don't want to understand, address your comments to those who you can reach. At the same time, you can take comfort in the fact that allowing them to speak is the best way to marginalize them because other people recognize what they are as well.
Sometimes people just can't get past their prejudices and take that first step into a wider world.
…and recognize that we are all equally guilty of this.
…and recognize that we are all equally guilty of this.
Not poodles.
For them a leg is a leg.
Okay to try and explain my position normally I would say I have no problem with political discussion but lately I have seen things that make me sick to my stomach. Including posters pretty much saying relations of mine should be bombed to hell because of the country they live in. Have had there religion been made out to be a bunch of racist, sexist suicidal lunatics and when you try to respond to what these people say they either Ignore the evidence provided or try and twist what you say. So if that is the level of political discussion here then I say we are better off without it.
There are always small-minded people Kevin, and they often react knee jerkily without an overall knowledge of the facts. A lot of people fear Islam (I am taking a leap and assuming you are discussing Islam) because it is a less well-known religion in the US. While the fanatics of Islam are scary, so are the fanatics of ANY religion.
Imagine if you will, some fundamentalist Christian or Hindu group hijacking a plane and flying it into the Kaaba in Mecca or the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. Does that make all Christians or Hindus supportive of something like that? No, but many Muslims around the world would assume that all Christians or Hindus hate them and want them dead, much as many Americans assumed that all Muslims wanted them dead.
The fact that America is backing off from its 'Us against the world' attitude is one of the refreshing things about the Obama Administration. If he would defang the Patriot Act I would sleep a lot easier, but it is such a tempting tool, one that can be easily used against foes both foreign and domestic.
We live in difficult times, and there is a transition going on that I think needs people of good intention and character to stand together and discuss the news of the day. We don't have to agree, we just have to treat each other civily.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Actually perhaps if a simple Ignore function was put in like other forums have?
It's been suggested before (strangely enough, in connection with my posts, which, as we all know, are always full of sunshine and goodwill), but the consensus among the Paizoians is that it would be hard to implement and make threads hard to follow.
Just ignore the problematic posters the old fashioned way. Or read their posts with Zoidberg's voice from Futurama. That's usually good for a laugh.
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Actually perhaps if a simple Ignore function was put in like other forums have?It's been suggested before (strangely enough, in connection with my posts, which, as we all know, are always full of sunshine and goodwill), but the consensus among the Paizoians is that it would be hard to implement and make threads hard to follow.
Just ignore the problematic posters the old fashioned way. Or read their posts with Zoidberg's voice from Futurama. That's usually good for a laugh.
I usually imagine them being read by a talking platypus. That takes the edge off, usually.
...when you try to respond to what these people say they either Ignore the evidence provided or try and twist what you say.
I do not agree with Samuel Weiss and I am not trying to single you out, Kevin Mack, but is it not possible you are just as guilty of ignoring Samuel’s ‘evidence’?
Again, I am not taking his side. I am just saying that both sides in pretty much any argument believe the other is ignoring evidence.
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...when you try to respond to what these people say they either Ignore the evidence provided or try and twist what you say.I do not agree with Samuel Weiss and I am not trying to single you out, Kevin Mack, but is it not possible you are just as guilty of ignoring Samuel’s ‘evidence’?
Again, I am not taking his side. I am just saying that both sides in pretty much any argument believe the other is ignoring evidence.
I see a poodle, but I hear a platypus.
I see a poodle, but I hear a platypus.
Really? I would think my own breed of inane yapping would be amusing enough in and of itselt.
In reference to the original post, I'll see your idea of western rudeness and raise you Internet anonymity and lack of debate skills.
I've noticed that people are much more willing to argue and insult from the safety of cyberspace then they are face to face. Not to ignore the Food Network example, but you were talking about television there, and "reality" television at that.
Another point to consider is that many of these arguments and insult matches stem from ad hominem fallacies. Frustrated with their inability to persuade another poster from their viewpoint, they simply attack the person for holding views they consider stupid or wrong. Or the reverse happens: a poster sees an attack on their held views to be an attack on them personally, and they respond with a personal attack of their own. Let the flame war begin.
Previous posters have already addressed solutions that seem viable: 1) Be civil, and 2)Thicken up your skin a little.
A third one for myself: Don't post angry. I've been a bit surly lately, and it's bleeding into my posting on the 'net. Gotta watch that...
A third one for myself:
A fourth one for myself: never take yourself too seriously.
Director of Narrative
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I’ve found that typing responses to threads and posts in a fresh document really helps against angry posting.
It also assists in finding typos and keeping posts from being eaten in addition to cooling off a silly heated response.
Here are the steps:
1. Read something that you want to respond to.
2. Fire up your favorite text editor and get cracking on that scathing response.
3. Either notice errors or the possibility that you are being a jackass.
4. Look it over again.
5. Fix any errors or tone the language appropriately.
6. Copy the text.
7. Click ‘reply’ or 'add a new post' on the messageboards.
8. Hover over the text box with your cursor.
9. Reconsider and delete the silly heated response.
10. Smile and go about your day.
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Realise that there are some people who’s positions and opinions you will never understand, nor they yours. Avoid entering into debate with these people. If they respond to your posts, ignore them, don’t reply, or simply thank them for their input and move on. You will never convince them that they are wrong, or even that your point of view is valid.
Ooo! Ooo! My turn!
1. Read something that you want to respond to.
2.Fire up your favorite text editor and get cracking on that scathing response.
3.If response is one sentence long, post without further consideration.
4.If response is longer than one sentence, ask self why you feel the need to post? Do you believe you really have something of value to add to the thread.
5.Irregardless of answer to number 4, post anyway.