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I've had a couple Chelaxian players ask this to me, and I'm curious now too.
Are the Chelaxians really evil? After looking at three faction missions you've got freeing slaves, blowing up a building, and killing someone (and making it hurt), of those the Chelaxian mission is freeing slaves... What?!?!
Does it get any better for those wanting to play the bad guy?
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I've had a couple Chelaxian players ask this to me, and I'm curious now too.
Are the Chelaxians really evil? After looking at three faction missions you've got freeing slaves, blowing up a building, and killing someone (and making it hurt), of those the Chelaxian mission is freeing slaves... What?!?!
Does it get any better for those wanting to play the bad guy?
Cheliax is led by evil. But smart and subtle evil.
It's easy to be blatant and kill or enslave people. But then everyone knows that you are evil and can denounce you as such. But if you do slow, methodical work behind the scenes, then nobody will suspect you when things go wrong for them.
Or you can look at it another way.
Cheliax is LAWFUL evil. Murder, death, mayhem are not lawful acts. Cheliax looks to order, and the correct order in the end will have the Paracountess ruling all. She has time, and will make things right.
If you really want to look at it another way, think of Cheliax as the United States (whom many regard as evil and up until recently, or even now, led by an evil being). While the nation itself may collectively be evil, its agents might simply be working for it out of patriotism, or a sense of duty, or a failure to recognize the evil for what it is. You could even have good, chaotic good or even lawful good agents working on behalf of an evil nation, depending on how they view their role in the big picture.
While it would be challenging to play a Lawful Good Chelaxian, you could do so if he was exemplifying the lawful and working towards the general good everywhere.
I've had a couple Chelaxian players ask this to me, and I'm curious now too.
Are the Chelaxians really evil? After looking at three faction missions you've got freeing slaves, blowing up a building, and killing someone (and making it hurt), of those the Chelaxian mission is freeing slaves... What?!?!
Does it get any better for those wanting to play the bad guy?
I think you missed the part about why they were freeing the slaves ...
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I think you missed the part about why they were freeing the slaves ...I've had a couple Chelaxian players ask this to me, and I'm curious now too.
Are the Chelaxians really evil? After looking at three faction missions you've got freeing slaves, blowing up a building, and killing someone (and making it hurt), of those the Chelaxian mission is freeing slaves... What?!?!
Does it get any better for those wanting to play the bad guy?
I read that part of the mission statement as ""freeing" the slaves" - as in you direct them to your contact who makes sure that they don't end up on the open market. I imagined they would be routed directly to the Paracountess' own stables, thus having no effect on market price.
Hmm.
Actually freeing slaves? That couldn't be exactly right.
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"Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."
Cheliax, as a Nation, is LN and tends towards LE in its laws and religious views.
Firstly, one thing is very important about Cheliax as a Nation: Not everyone WORSHIPS devils, but a lot of folk USE devils. Some actively worship Asmodeus, but lets be clear, it is so they can have enough power to move up the hierarchy themselves. It is purely a selfish use and be used relationship, rather than actual deference. Moreover, one doesn't necessarily have to sell THEIR OWN soul...
As such, the Chelish missions are all about furthering the goals of the empire. Most tend towards being extremely RUTHLESS but not necessarily evil acts. (though some are quite evil in intent, if not in act).
Additionally, on the freeing slaves thing, (spoiler?) It is very much NOT freeing slaves that they are doing it is a calculated tactical decision that will enhance Chelish slave trade. The innuendo and use of quotation marks is relatively clear, as Joshua said.
My personal view on Cheliax is that it should be a bit more subtle; I always saw Faustian pacts as insidious, rather than some of the odder missions - Crocodile Module much? (However that is a personal opinion).
I role-play them as being a very dangerous LN nation that advances the empire in WHATEVER means are necessary at the time. the lawful factor corresponding to the hierarchy, not a regard for other nation's laws of course. Cheliax aren't necessarily the *bad* guys, but they sure as hell (punny!) aren't the *good guys*.
There are extremes to it. The common populace is very LN and favours the order brought on by the diabolically backed regime, whilst the Old nobility, throwbacks to when Aroden's worship was based in Cheliax, would be probablly LN inclined as well. The LE development is a method of industrialising and rearming the nation after civil unrest.
Think the Industrial Revolution in the Soviet Union (1918-1940s) for an example of the kind of ruthlessness I am talking about.
Also, I view Cheliax as being extremely Machiavellian, but with a strong sense of discipline as to how such advancement occurs.
Taldor and Cheliax are to me very similar, and they should be, being opposing world powers. No real Government can be both in control and aggressively expansionist without being ruthless and looking out for their interests first.
For example, my PC,(who is a LN avid Abadar worshipper) a Rogue/Fighter (who took all the face skills, even Sense Motive) Argues that ruthless acts are required for the benefit of the greater good. Moreover; the best course of action is to utilise devils as an asset until such time as the empire is in a position to move without them. He views them as evil and despicable, but a valued resource that is necessary in order to maintain Cheliax as a viable world superpower, in light of the alternative of the chaotic period prior to house Thrune's coup d'etat.
His opinion regarding current practices is that a smooth transition to another government can only occur after a burgeoning middle class develops and the Empire can fortify itself against external threats.
His views on Slavery stem from a convoluted stance on Labour Market Segmentation and the requirement of certain workers for certain jobs in any industrialisation process.
Hope that helps.
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There is a tradition started among the Chelish players of our group - the "Chelaxian High Five". Whenever a Chelish player successfully cons a non-Chelish player (usually Andoran) to assist him with some extremely dodgy faction goal at the expense of the other players moral code, personal interests, better judgement etc, without the other player (or at least their character) realising it, or better yet, (erroneously) believing they did a good deed and left feeling good about it - that's when the Chelish player walks up to the other player, raises his hand and announces with good spirit "Chelaxian High Five!" and the other player joins the high five thinking they've just had a character bonding moment, and maybe these Chelish guys aren't that bad after all?
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The best thing about LE from an adventure/module standpoint is that in the majority of adventures, the LE character doesn't require any special motivation that the LG one wouldn't also use. LE doesn't equal 'friends with all other evil,' after all, and the Asmodeus worshipper is going to be every bit as motivated as a Paladin of Iomedae to smack down the forces of any evil that *isn't* Asmodeus (or even, in the case of Chelaxian internal intrigue, in the best interests of his or her own house and family!).
Running games for CE or NE characters, who might actively embrace all sorts of extra-curricular naughtiness and be all-too-willing to screw over their allies to accomplish goals, can be more problematic.
LE, less 'disruptive psycho-killer nutjob' and more Dr. Doom, perfectly willing to ally with the Fantastic Four, if it means saving the planet from Galactus.
Just swap out 'Fantastic Four' with 'Andoran freedom fighters' and 'Galactus' with 'apocalyptic Rovagug cults.'
Having multiple Chelaxians at the table sucks when you're an Andoran paladin.Umm ... wait a minute, I thought you were working against the Chelish?** spoiler omitted ** I think, Sir, you must be mistaken.
Our table took the the phrase "I've stepped in a pile of Andoran" after the sewer adventure. (Even the Osirians took up the phrase.)
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Our table took the the phrase "I've stepped in a pile of Andoran" after the sewer adventure. (Even the Osirians took up the phrase.)
A common joke. All but Andorans tend to joke (?) about how Andoran is just one big sewer. Hey, it's a chance for my Taldan halfling to befriend at least some of the Chelish pathfinders ... I know, impossible anyway. :)
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My Taldan bard likes to pick on Osirion rather than Andoran. When visiting the sewers of Absalom I remarked with distaste that it smelled like an Osirion slum down there. The three Osirion party members stared daggers at me, and I hastily backtracked "Oh, I'm so sorry! I'm sure the slum *you* are from smells much better!"
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A common joke. All but Andorans tend to joke (?) about how Andoran is just one big sewer. Hey, it's a chance for my Taldan halfling to befriend at least some of the Chelish pathfinders ... I know, impossible anyway. :)
That's ridiculous. Why would Taldor insult one of its own provinces -- namely the province of Andoran? And why wouldn't a Taldan get along with residents of another of its provinces -- namely the province of Cheliax? They should be treated as wayward (if rather slow) children and they should be gently encouraged to think and behave properly.
Now those Osirians and Qadirans, on the other hand...
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That's ridiculous. Why would Taldor insult one of its own provinces -- namely the province of Andoran? And why wouldn't a Taldan get along with residents of another of its provinces -- namely the province of Cheliax? They should be treated as wayward (if rather slow) children and they should be gently encouraged to think and behave properly.
Now those Osirians and Qadirans, on the other hand...
Did'ja read books, ma friend? Ya sure look like it, but I don't blame ya, might have a few hundred years since then!
Ya know, those two petty bastard states went rogue, separated from mighty Taldor. Those jerks don't even realise they still speak the same language we do, Taldane!
An' once those rebel scum in Andoran got a hold of their "lands" they rip every noble from their titles an' start blabbing about this 'freedom' an' 'democracy'. Surreal ideas, mind-bogglingly stupid. They take our cities, an' admist their ludicrous chicken fights they manage to lose all the documents o' the sewers! That's what ya get when ya have no real people in charge to take care o' things!
An' just think o' it! Some o' these dorks are among the Pathfinder Society! An' what do they do? Staple some idiotic propaganda pamphlets on the doors o' some high-an'-mighty, preaching o' freedom an' anti-slavery! At least the Andoran filth who did that got wha' he deserved!
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The best thing about LE from an adventure/module standpoint is that in the majority of adventures, the LE character doesn't require any special motivation that the LG one wouldn't also use. LE doesn't equal 'friends with all other evil,' after all, and the Asmodeus worshipper is going to be every bit as motivated as a Paladin of Iomedae to smack down the forces of any evil that *isn't* Asmodeus (or even, in the case of Chelaxian internal intrigue, in the best interests of his or her own house and family!).
Running games for CE or NE characters, who might actively embrace all sorts of extra-curricular naughtiness and be all-too-willing to screw over their allies to accomplish goals, can be more problematic.
LE, less 'disruptive psycho-killer nutjob' and more Dr. Doom, perfectly willing to ally with the Fantastic Four, if it means saving the planet from Galactus.
Just swap out 'Fantastic Four' with 'Andoran freedom fighters' and 'Galactus' with 'apocalyptic Rovagug cults.'
If you are trying to say that its ok to adventure with LE characters because they won't act evil part of the time.... I can't see how that works. What would your LE character do in a mod where he or she doesn't gain anything, and other evil factions don't lose? In other words, if the LE character stands to gain nothing, and all that's done is benefit the greater good by helping others, I think he's going to have a bit of a problem - especially if those who benefit are the GOOD opponents of his deity.
You're talking about a very limited, one time situation where evil allies with good because they don't feel like getting crushed, that's different. I just can't see that as justification for including evil characters in an organized play situation on a regular basis.I'd like to see the idea of including Cheliax as a faction reconsidered, or making the Cheliax faction good rebels against the leadership of the country.
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A common joke. All but Andorans tend to joke (?) about how Andoran is just one big sewer. Hey, it's a chance for my Taldan halfling to befriend at least some of the Chelish pathfinders ... I know, impossible anyway. :)That's ridiculous. Why would Taldor insult one of its own provinces -- namely the province of Andoran? And why wouldn't a Taldan get along with residents of another of its provinces -- namely the province of Cheliax? They should be treated as wayward (if rather slow) children and they should be gently encouraged to think and behave properly.
Now those Osirians and Qadirans, on the other hand...
I heartily agree with you brother ! It is goodwill not confrontation that will reunite the Empire. while those backward , reckless, and corse peoples...(read Osiria and Qadira) pretend at civilisation but bring only havoc.
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The best thing about LE from an adventure/module standpoint is that in the majority of adventures, the LE character doesn't require any special motivation that the LG one wouldn't also use. LE doesn't equal 'friends with all other evil,' after all, and the Asmodeus worshipper is going to be every bit as motivated as a Paladin of Iomedae to smack down the forces of any evil that *isn't* Asmodeus (or even, in the case of Chelaxian internal intrigue, in the best interests of his or her own house and family!).
Running games for CE or NE characters, who might actively embrace all sorts of extra-curricular naughtiness and be all-too-willing to screw over their allies to accomplish goals, can be more problematic.
LE, less 'disruptive psycho-killer nutjob' and more Dr. Doom, perfectly willing to ally with the Fantastic Four, if it means saving the planet from Galactus.
Just swap out 'Fantastic Four' with 'Andoran freedom fighters' and 'Galactus' with 'apocalyptic Rovagug cults.'
If you are trying to say that its ok to adventure with LE characters because they won't act evil part of the time.... I can't see how that works. What would your LE character do in a mod where he or she doesn't gain anything, and other evil factions don't lose? In other words, if the LE character stands to gain nothing, and all that's done is benefit the greater good by helping others, I think he's going to have a bit of a problem - especially if those who benefit are the GOOD opponents of his deity.
You're talking about a very limited, one time situation where evil allies with good because they don't feel like getting crushed, that's different. I just can't see that as justification for including evil characters in an organized play situation on a regular basis.
I'd like to see the idea of including Cheliax as a faction reconsidered, or making the Cheliax faction good rebels against the leadership of the country.
I'm not sure if you've read the guidelines for the adventure submissions, but it makes it pretty clear that the Pathfinder Society is not an altruistic organisation. There shouldn't be any adventures where the only motivation is 'The Greater Good', so selfish characters are quite feasible (though perhaps a little annoying for the rest of the party).
I'm not sure if you've read the...
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You're talking about a very limited, one time situation where evil allies with good because they don't feel like getting crushed, that's different. I just can't see that as justification for including evil characters in an organized play situation on a regular basis.
I'd like to see the idea of including Cheliax as a faction reconsidered, or making the Cheliax faction good rebels against the leadership of the country.
Just for frame of reference, quoting from the Pathfinder Society Guide for Organized Play - "The Society places no moral obligations upon its members, so agents span all races, creeds, and motivations. At any given time, a Pathfinder lodge might house a fiend-summoning Chelaxian, an Andoren freedom fighter, an antiquities-obsessed Osirian necromancer,and a friendly Taldan raconteur. Pathfinder agents are expected to respect one another’s claims and stay out of each other’s affairs unless offering a helping hand."
The goal of the society is gather lore for inclusion in its own published journal.
It would be my assumption that their neutral stance is so that they can exist as a pan-national organization, searching out new lore and artifacts wherever they may be. If they were to show preference towards any one faction, they would soon find themselves unwelcome in the nations opposed to that faction. By including Cheliax and staying out of its affairs, they ensure that should new artifacts or lore warrant exploration in Cheliax, they would be welcome to send agents.