One of my PCs in this campaign (only one session under our belts), is playing an unaligned (neutral) rather seedy favored soul of Boccob. He has a small shrine to Boccob in the Azure Cathedral where he performs minor healing magics to sailors off the boats and such. He is not above pickpocketing the incapacitated, as he has ranks in sleight of hand. He uses the club as his weapon.
I'm fine with all of this, but my problem is that he has stated that he doesn't truely serve Boccob, that it's only lip service. I don't like this at all, as how can you be a favored soul and not worship the God? I am thinking of having him have a vision(s). Then again, this is Boccob, "the uncaring", so maybe it's not so far fetched.
Ideas:
Boccob says "why have you forsaken me?", and won't allow him to advance in this class OR takes away the spell at the most inopportune moment. In this scenario he is a chosen of Boccob who has fallen and must atone.
Olidammara and Zagyg both appear to ask for his worship of them. The character most matches Zagyg, as he doesn't drink wine and uses the club as his weapon. But the character like the trickery aspect a lot.
Optionally or additionally, as Parrot island is next up, have the Huecuva's holy symbol be of whichever deity I prefer, and potentially have some kind of omen before-hand like "serve the deity faithfully who next shows you a sign".
Again, I just don't like divine casters (who are not Ur Priests) who do not worship deities, as this encourages my powergaming players to cherry pick domains and not roleplay at all.
Specific advice and suggestions solicited!
|
Having just finished STAP a few days ago with my group, I would go a different route:
I wouldn't shepherd the PC towards Boccob. I would let him think he's playing his game his way. For instance, Boccob is onto to his act and denies granting any spells. Instead, have Malcanthet grant spells to him knowing that the party is going to be her instrument to bring about Demogorgon's fall. Plus, this possibly helps her secure the new Prince of Demons (if he wins the level check at the end).
And the player shouldn't be surprised at the end. Afterall, he entire character concept is built around manipulating a deity (false worship) so it shouldn't be a surprise that the deity is onto his scheme and someone else is filling in solely to manipulate him.
-Skeld
Having just finished STAP a few days ago with my group, I would go a different route:
** spoiler omitted **
-Skeld
Fascinating. <Spock eye-brow raise>
Can Malcanthet grant spells?
Fascinating. <spoke eye-brow raise>
Can Malcanthet grant spells?
Well, if Demon Lords can grant spells or not, is up to you to decide in your campaign. In my campaigns they can grant spells, but they are nearly on-par with gods concerning their power level, i.e., unkillable for anything but level 60+ characters, which don't appear in my campaign world.
If you prefer demon lords to be killable by lets say level 20-25 characters, then it is quite unrealistic that they can grant up to level 9 spells on their own.
Another solution would be that demon lords can manipulate who gets granted spells directly from the Abyss, which would solve the dilemma in the latter case.
Fascinating. <spoke eye-brow raise>
Can Malcanthet grant spells?Well, if Demon Lords can grant spells or not, is up to you to decide in your campaign. In my campaigns they can grant spells, but they are nearly on-par with gods concerning their power level, i.e., unkillable for anything but level 60+ characters, which don't appear in my campaign world.
If you prefer demon lords to be killable by lets say level 20-25 characters, then it is quite unrealistic that they can grant up to level 9 spells on their own.
Another solution would be that demon lords can manipulate who gets granted spells directly from the Abyss, which would solve the dilemma in the latter case.
Malcanthet, Queen of the Succubi, is a CR28, and there are succubus Thralls of Malcanthet though. So you can make a case for her being able to grant spells.
I would definitely want to place some subtle hints in the adventure path in this scenario, I just don't know exactly what.
|
I don't know anything about the campaign you're running, but another thing to remember is favored souls are not clerics. Clerics serve a deity or cause willingly, earning their abilities through acts of worship and dedication to their faith. I tend to view favored souls as people who didn't have any real choice in the matter, more chosen than favored. They have their abilities because a deity or power wants them to. The character can always choose not to advance as a favored soul (forsaking their gift,) but those who do stay with the class are the people who decide they enjoy using the powers they've been given.
The example given by Skeld would work well as an illustration of how a powerful being might choose to use a mortal vessel. Your player's character might be some schmuck who woke up one morning with divine powers and decided Boccob must be responsible or figured Boccob would be a good deity to pin the blame on not knowing the spells come from somewhere else. You might want to ask your player why he chose Boccob as his "cover" deity. Though powerful, the uncaring god of magic isn't anywhere near as commonly worshipped as Pelor and his priests aren't normally associated with healing the sick and wounded.
|
|
Can Malcanthet grant spells?
As Maxxx mentioned, for something like this, I would allow Malcanthet to grant spells whether it were Setting RAW or not.
If for no other reason than it would be cool and really solidifies Malcanthet as the "threat behind the threat" of the Savage Tide because it leaves the "end" of the campaign with some additional unanswered questions. Like "what is Malcanthet's real motivation for wanting Demogorgon out of the way?" and "was the Demogorgon's involvement in the Savage Tide just another manipulation by Malcanthet to put him on a collision course with the heroes?" Maybe Malcanthet knows something about the PC in question that no one else knows?
As for subtle hints about the true nature of the PC's divine powers, you could do any number of things. Maybe assign some ad hoc modifiers to certain spells or spells against certain enemies (charm/compulsions might get a plus up while [good] spells get a penalty) that are secretly adjudicated so that the player doesn't quite know about them, but might suspect something. Also, there are several succubi in the campaign, maybe they act deferential to the PC (don't attack, flee from, etc.). Or maybe there is a mark upon the PC that is only visible with see invisibility or true seeing or something similar (ala Shackled City AP).
-Skeld
Can Malcanthet grant spells?As Maxxx mentioned, for something like this, I would allow Malcanthet to grant spells whether it were Setting RAW or not.
** spoiler omitted **
As for subtle hints about the true nature of the PC's divine powers, you could do any number of things. Maybe assign some ad hoc modifiers to certain spells or spells against certain enemies (charm/compulsions might get a plus up while [good] spells get a penalty) that are secretly adjudicated so that the player doesn't quite know about them, but might suspect something. Also, there are several succubi in the campaign, maybe they act deferential to the PC (don't attack, flee from, etc.). Or maybe there is a mark upon the PC that is only visible with see invisibility or true seeing or something similar (ala Shackled City AP).
-Skeld
So, the real trick would then be how to handle..
|
|
So, the real trick would then be how to handle..
** spoiler omitted **
As for how to make the PC assume the mantle of Prince of Demons, that is also covered in the last module. If the chosen PC refuses (assuming the PC in question is the chosen PC), then Malcanthet attempts to dominate and force the PC to try. At that point, if the PC rolls bad and doesn't win, there's nost much else for Malcanthet to do. I can see her no longer granting spells to the PC, but at that point the campaign is over and regaining lost powers would be an adventure all to itself.
-Skeld
As long as the match between god and favored soul matches thematically (and it certainly seems to here), I don't see this as a problem at all. Remember that, unlike clerics, a god chooses a favored soul directly. Gods(s) move in mysterious ways. Boccob might see qualities in this characters soul that the character cannot see himself. Or maybe Boccob has something he wants done - like preventing the ascension of Demogorgon in STAP - and doesn't really care about the inner life of the tool he chooses for the task.
After reading through this thread, I really think that you want to sit down and talk with your player about the kind of game that you run and the kind of game that he wants to play.
The issue of should a favored soul be able get powers from a god and yet not follow the god is not the real issue. The issue is do you have a player who is a power gamer in your game when you are looking for someone who is more into the role-playing aspect.
While power gaming is not the style of play that I prefer, it is just as valid as the deeper role-play style that you and I prefer. The point is that by trying to shepherd a power gamer player into your style may not be the answer. If a power game style is what he wants and is looking for your efforts can cause friction and even one of you leaving the game.What I really think you should do is talk to the player and see what kind of game he is looking for. If he is looking for a power gamer style game and your game is not that, be honest and tell him upfront. Be very open about what your style is and what you expect from your players. You may even be able to convince him to give your style a try. But the sooner you do this the better. If your styles truly are different, this problem is just the beginning. Better to find out now that your styles are incompatible than half way through an adventure path (because this can bring down not just you and this player but your group as well).
Your point is well taken, but I don't think it's as clear cut as that. I myself like to powergame too. We just finished up a gestalt campaign where I played a power-attacking leap-attacking permanently enlarged half-orc pouncing barbarian warhulk. The damage I did was completely obscene. It was in the 70's per hit, and I had the cheese feat that lets you take the power attack penalty to your AC instead of your attack roll. So I didn't miss either.
My issue is that this player is a better power gamer than me, and I don't want him overshadowing the rest of the party. He knows this and is calling himself a healer to try and fit that needed role and not overshadow the other PCs. This player also is capable enough as a role-player too. I am just very wary of the PC balance and want to work as best I can to make everyone feel like an equal contributor in the fights and the story.
First, thanks for the use of spoilers! O:)
Second, I like all the suggestions above (true god in disguise, manipulating entity,* Boccob using an unwilling tool.)
As recommended I would ask 'why boccob' and then choose which background. If it was just a way to avoid the power gaming and fill the party niche, I do not think you have anything to worry about.
What domains did he take (or how is it cherry-picking in your mind)?
*
First, thanks for the use of spoilers! O:)
Second, I like all the suggestions above (true god in disguise, manipulating entity,* Boccob using an unwilling tool.)
As recommended I would ask 'why boccob' and then choose which background. If it was just a way to avoid the power gaming and fill the party niche, I do not think you have anything to worry about.
What domains did he take (or how is it cherry-picking in your mind)?
*** spoiler omitted **
I know one was trickery. And I know this because he mentioned having the spell "disguise self". But now I realize that Favored Souls DON'T get domain spells or powers, so I'll have to take that up with him to properly nerf the PC. I suspect it had something to do with Heroforge, as when you pick a deity it pops up the domains for you to choose if you're a cleric.
Your point is well taken…Wow, after reading your posts and the responses, I really thought that you were missing the real issue, now I see that it was not you that was missing the issue but me. I am old school and not much of a powergamer so there is not a lot of advice that I could give you to help.
While I can’t help, I would be curious with what you end up doing to solve the problem and also how well it works. At some point after this issue is dealt with can you post that here?
I'll only know further down the line when I see the power level of each of the characters. This particular PC is evolving, and may change to a CLERIC who thinks he's faking out Boccob but in reality
I'll only know further down the line when I see the power level of each of the characters. This particular PC is evolving, and may change to a CLERIC who thinks he's faking out Boccob but in reality ** spoiler omitted **
UPDATE: The character is playing a CLERIC who says is paying lip service to Boccob, not even using a holy symbol of Boccob to do his (pathfinder version) turning. This is definitely only going to work in my game because ...
Existential crisis coming for this PC?
Any thoughts or ideas for this?
You will have to take care that the other players do not find out. Anyone with a knowledge religion may wonder why this cleric still gets his spells.
You will have to take care that the other players do not find out. Anyone with a knowledge religion may wonder why this cleric still gets his spells.
True. But I doubt that any of my other players care enough to ask.
You will have to take care that the other players do not find out. Anyone with a knowledge religion may wonder why this cleric still gets his spells.
UPDATE...
I also think I need to start dropping hints. For example, I was considering dropping a scourge in the player's path and having him drawn to it and also proficient. Though I need a stronger meta-gaming reason for him to use it, as he currently uses a spiked chain because even though he is not proficient he can stay out of combat range, swing the chain and still be ready to heal (as this is his embraced primary function).
More...
This character is an Elan (from Exp Psionics Handbook) Cleric. Elans are made from humans via a special secret ritual. His background leaves all the details out, as he does not remember any of this. Wouldn't this be a perfect opportunity to have Malche's plans for him start here, including marking him and granting spells? I just have to work out the details.
thoughts?
More...
This character is an Elan (from Exp Psionics Handbook) Cleric. Elans are made from humans via a special secret ritual. His background leaves all the details out, as he does not remember any of this. Wouldn't this be a perfect opportunity to have Malche's plans for him start here, including marking him and granting spells? I just have to work out the details.
thoughts?
I think him not remembering the tranformation is the perfect opportunity to slip in some other diety.
I like the mark idea.
One thing you should not forget is:
It is not YOUR character you want to mess around with. You are "only" the gamemaster, but changing something like that can piss peopla off big time.
I'm not sure what you mean by me "changing". The PC is a cleric, who flaunts the no god or no philosophy angle when I specifically stated that all clerics needed to have a god at the beginning of the campaign.