Hey gang. . . I'll be rolling up a bard for the Organized Play group in my neighborhood. In 3.5 sometimes I had a really hard time keeping her alive in combat, although roleplaying her was pretty nice. Any suggest for survivability for me?
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Yes, I have good advice for you, as I play a bard myself in our local Pathfinder Society group! :)
First, don't try to outdo anyone else. You'll never outdo a fighter, a wizard, a cleric, a rogue, at what they do. This means don't take feats that make you throw spells better (Spell Focus or any Metamagic feats, etc.), don't take feats that make you hit better (Weapon Focus, etc.)
If using the 3.5 rules, Weapon Finesse is ok, as it will allow you to use your whip to trip and disarm others better. Remember that Pathfinder Society will switch to Pathfinder RPG rules in Aug/Sep 09, so when you do switch, and convert your bard to PRPG rules, drop Weapon Finesse and take Agile Manoeuvers instead.
Other than Weapon Finesse (3.5) or Agile Manoeuvers (PRPG), only take feats THAT WILL HELP YOU SAVE YOUR OWN HIDE! :) (see *NOTE*, below, for suggestions) Maximize your ranks in acrobatics to tumble through around or through opponents' squares unscathed; Maximize your Escape Artist ranks to squeeze out of big bad foes with Improved Grab, Constrict or Swallow Whole features; keep Diplomacy and Perform maxed out as well, as you're now officially the party's "talker" :P
I know it sounds awful and cowardly, but bards are only there to inspire others in hitting harder (i.e. inspire courage). The rest of their powers can be useful, but in general, for overall party importance, anything else will only be secondary. If you're a pro at playing bards and know their spell list inside out, you can do really wicked things in combat that will make everybody's jaw drop (at low levels, a bard with 18 Charisma throwing a DC 15 sleep spell is usually one such jaw dropper, as it can take care of four low-level thugs single-handedly...)
*NOTE* (CAPS indicate "must haves", as per my own experience playing bards; this list refers to the upcoming PRPG rules feats) --> DODGE, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, DEFENSIVE COMBAT TRAINING, AGILE MANEUVRERS, Great Fortitude, Toughness, Endurance, Diehard, Persuasive, Stealthy, Run, and if you're into it, the Tower Shield Proficiency. Bard is also an excellent class to take if you plan to become the party's "crafter"; in that case, take some of the item creation feats (Craft Wondrous Items being the most obvious choice); however in a Pathfinder Society official gaming setting, I would avoid that.
Do what the bard does best: Strengthen the party. Both bardic performance and bard spells do a really great job of this.
As for martial support: I've found that as a bard, you cannot lead from the front. But more importantly: You don't have to lead from the front. Get a crossbow (a light one so you can get rapid reload and stay mobile - unless you can get crossbow mastery) or shortbow/longbow (depending on your strength really).
I'm playing a bard right now, and I rarely have survivability problems, mainly because I protect myself (mirror image and the like) and stay out of reach.
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Hey gang. . . I'll be rolling up a bard for the Organized Play group in my neighborhood. In 3.5 sometimes I had a really hard time keeping her alive in combat, although roleplaying her was pretty nice. Any suggest for survivability for me?
Well, I've been playing a kobold bard for the last couple of months, and I play him as the ranged attack/spell support guy.
As far as combat roles go, I've been taking cover and plinking away with the xbow or hitting foes with Grease to trip them up. There was one fight where half of the enemies were on the floor at any given time...good laughs there! :)
One feat I suggest is Arcane Strike. It's pretty useful for a Bard since they have 3/4 BAB and arcane spells. Odds are you'll have the only magic weapon in the party for the early levels, and it increases in bonus as you progress.
Another good is Toughness. If you're going to be in melee a lot, the extra HP help. If you're playing a race with FC bard, the extra HP is another boon. With toughness and FC, that's an extra 2 hp/level plus a bonus 3 at level 1, so that works out to 43 HP at level 20. Nothing to scoff at there!
In additon to the bardic performances, there are a lot of save or suck spells on the bard spell list. Grease, hideous laughter, glitterdust, hold person, summon swarm...there's a lot of good ones. If you throw down one or two of these spells in combat, you'll help the party and take the load off of the wizard so he can blast away. Also, never underestimate the benefits of charm person or disguise self either! :D
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A bit off topic, because the material is non-OGL, but some of the bonus bard spells in Spell Compendium (gathered from the Complete splatbooks, I believe) are neatly oriented towards building a gishy magical swashbuckling bard. Here's a partial list:
1-critical strike; expeditious retreat, swift; invisibility, swift;
2-grace; sonic weapon; surefooted stride; war cry
3-dolorous blow; wounding whispers
Hey gang. . . I'll be rolling up a bard for the Organized Play group in my neighborhood. In 3.5 sometimes I had a really hard time keeping her alive in combat, although roleplaying her was pretty nice. Any suggest for survivability for me?
All the comments are spot on so far; if you accept your role as the Role-Player and the Buffer, you can do wonders.
Think carefully on skill selection as well. Performance is obviously a must have, but depending on the campaign Knowledge, Diplomacy, and Bluff will really let you shine in non-combat situations. In combat Acrobatics (Tumble and Jump) will give you some much needed mobility to prowl the flanks.
Wow, you're in for a world of hurt, but it seems you know that because you've played 3.x bards before.
Your bard will be able to do many things, but will not be able to do any of them well.
My suggestion to you is to understand that fact going in. Understand that the party's real spellcasters will make you look like you only dabble in spells, and the real combatants will make you look like you are still figuring out which end of the longsword does the damage.
If you know this going in, and you are perfectly OK with being the support party member, the one person in the whole group who never does anything, never shines in the spotlight (ironic when you think about it), then you won't be disappointed in your choice of class.
Remember, bards are supposed to sing of the heroic acts performed by real heroes. You never hear of bards singing of their own heroism. And there's a reason for this - bards lack the resources to stand on their own as heroes.
Once you get that out of the way, if you still want a bard, then there are some things a bard does well.
Buffs: all those spells that make everyone else look great. Use them freely. Transform your fighter into a whirlwind of death-dealing steel, and your mage into an irresistable force of furious nature.
Music: Inspire Courage wins the day, everything else is meh. So win the day as often as your daily uses of bardic music will allow.
Roleplaying: Here's where your bard will steal the stage. Sure, everyone else upstages you in the dungeon (if they don't then you're not doing your job - you should use your magic and music to make sure they upstage you), but when you get back to town, you can finally steal all that spotlight with your high charisma and all those skill points for skills like diplomacy, bluff, intimidate, sense motive, etc. Even the high-CHA paladins and sorcerers can't match your skill selection, so put those babies to use and make sure you live it up in the limelight in towns - your class is meant for this particular limelight.
Don't forget to consider the differences between playing an instrument, singing, poetry, etc. I don't recall those made much difference in 3.x but they do have some effect on your bardic music ability in Pathfinder. Having more than one perform skill lets you switch between different modes as the situation dictates.
Your original post mentioned combat surviveability. Well, sadly, you have very little of that, so your best surviveability is to avoid combat entirely. Stick to ranged attacks or, if you have to melee, try to make sure you're next to a juicier target, someone the monsters will rather hit than you. Cowardly, yes, but you can't inspire much courage when you're unconscious and bleeding out.
And finally, choose your fieats from among those that add to your defenses, and choose your spells from among those that make your fellow adventurers shine, shine, shine.
It's not glorious, but hey, it's not really meant to be.
I always found archery to be a strength of the Bard. Generally you have a decent dex, and it keeps you out of melee.
However I have seen a bard focus on self buffs and melee skills do ok. He's not a fighter but he can be ok.
The bard it tough, but just try to remember your not a fighter and you should be ok.
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Remember, bards are supposed to sing of the heroic acts performed by real heroes. You never hear of bards singing of their own heroism. And there's a reason for this - bards lack the resources to stand on their own as heroes.
I gotta disagree. Bards make for superb heroes. Being the most powerful in a particular field does not make you a hero. Heroism is more about having the courage to do things even when it's difficult, not when it's easy. Since the bard excels at no one thing, then everything they do is a heroic act. :)
Remember, bards are supposed to sing of the heroic acts performed by real heroes. You never hear of bards singing of their own heroism. And there's a reason for this - bards lack the resources to stand on their own as heroes.I gotta disagree. Bards make for superb heroes. Being the most powerful in a particular field does not make you a hero. Heroism is more about having the courage to do things even when it's difficult, not when it's easy. Since the bard excels at no one thing, then everything they do is a heroic act. :)
I never said they weren't courageous.
Your definition fits courage, but doesn't fit heroism.
The courageous fireman who runs into a burning building then fails to rescue anyone is just as courageous and the fireman who runs into the same burning building and comes out carrying a child he saved from certain death.
But only one of them is a hero.
Or arguably, they're both heroes for doing what they do, and risking what they risked, but only one of them will have his picture on the front page under a caption that calls him a hero.
So yeah, the courageous bard who has the courage to venture into the dungeon, even though it's hard, is just as courageous as the fighter and the wizard and the cleric.
But when the dust settles, it's the fighter who slew the dragon and the wizard who disintegrated the illithid and the cleric who banished the balor - and the bard who lived (if he's lucky) to sing of their heroic deeds.
And when the town criers (D&D newspapers) shout out the news about the heroes, and the tale is told far across the land, nobody will tell of the little bard who quietly (well, not too quietly since he's singing, et. al.) stood behind the heroes and inspired them to greatness.
Sure, he was just as important. Just as courageous. And maybe those heroes would have failed without that bard there to turn them into super-heroes.
But that still won't get him in the songs, or the epic tales.
The tragic irony is, he's a bard, and he'll be singing those same songs and spreading those same tales in taverns throughout the land, but he'll get pelted with stale vegetables if he tries to include his own part in the story, because the raucus drunk tavern crowds won't believe it, or care about it, and won't want to hear about it.
So get on with the song, bard!
Yeah, yeah, much of what I just wrote is roleplaying stuff and not game mechanics.
But, unfortunately for the bard class, their list of class features and spells, the game mechanics atually available to the class, will more often than not fulfill this roleplaying scenario. The bard just isn't well equipped to shine in the adventure. He will have his moments, and a good DM will set up plenty of them, but it's just not what the class is well-designed to do.
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But, unfortunately for the bard class, their list of class features and spells, the game mechanics atually available to the class, will more often than not fulfill this roleplaying scenario. The bard just isn't well equipped to shine in the adventure. He will have his moments, and a good DM will set up plenty of them, but it's just not what the class is well-designed to do.
There is no one class that does everything well. The fighter doesn't cast spells very well and the wizard runs screaming from melee, but the bard can hold his own by comparison. They are the ultimate troubleshooter (sometimes troublemaker) and fill that role very well.
Besides, what would Jason be doing without his bard? Digesting slowly in a dragon's belly, I bet. :)
Your bard will be able to do many things, but will not be able to do any of them well.
My suggestion to you is to understand that fact going in. Understand that the party's real spellcasters will make you look like you only dabble in spells, and the real combatants will make you look like you are still figuring out which end of the longsword does the damage.
If you know this going in, and you are perfectly OK with being the support party member, the one person in the whole group who never does anything, never shines in the spotlight (ironic when you think about it), then you won't be disappointed in your choice of class.
I find it strange that people as soon as it comes to bard immediately begins to tell you why the bard sucks as a melee combatant or spellcaster, when they don't do the same thing for other classes. I mean, no one would dream of uttering the phrase "Wow, so you are going to play a fighter? Then you should be aware that you will suck at trapfinding and spellcasting."
A bard is a bard, nothing else, and should do what bards are best at. There's no one better than the bard at boosting the party, especially at lower levels, a bard rules in a social environment, and charms and compulsions are a bards best friend. As long as you stick to that you will have a blast and your GM will hate you. Also, the other players will be eternally grateful to you for saving their bacon with your bardic music, since that ability can be the difference between a TPK and a cake walk.
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There's no one better than the bard at boosting the party, especially at lower levels, a bard rules in a social environment, and charms and compulsions are a bards best friend. As long as you stick to that you will have a blast and your GM will hate you. Also, the other players will be eternally grateful to you for saving their bacon with your bardic music, since that ability can be the difference between a TPK and a cake walk.
It's a strange thing. I've never played a bard before the game I'm in now, and I'm loving it. I've never had so many options of what to do in combat (sometimes too many and I overlook the best option), and being able to interact with the game world without coming off as a mildly brain-damaged turnip really enhances my enjoyment of the game.
When the rogue has been tossed into the harbour, the fighter has run off crying like a little girl, and the wizard is being chopped up by a bunch of thugs, who does the party turn to for help? The bard!
It's rapidly becoming my personal favoured class; currently tied with the archivist from HoH.
I find it strange that people as soon as it comes to bard immediately begins to tell you why the bard sucks as a melee combatant or spellcaster, when they don't do the same thing for other classes. I mean, no one would dream of uttering the phrase "Wow, so you are going to play a fighter? Then you should be aware that you will suck at trapfinding and spellcasting."I think the difference is expectations.
Nobody expects a fighter to be good at trapfinding or spellcasting. The fighter does what he advertises to do. He fights.
But people look at the bard and see he has spells, and weapons, and some armor, and a decent if not great BAB, and all his potential, and they set their expectations too high.
In 30+ years of playing this game, and in fact to other roleplaying systems too, just about everyone I've seen initially attracted to the bard class/concept became quickly dissatisfied with their unstellar performance.
3.x was no exception. In fact, it became even more of a gulf between the parties performers, and the bard.
My original post wasn't intended to argue that bards do nothing well.
It was only intended to argue that bards do only one thing well, and the OP will be frustrated if she tries to mold her bard into a different lump of clay.
Unfortunately, the one thing a bard does well is neither glamorous nor heroic.
Many people play heroic fantasy games because they want to be heroes. They want to shine in the spotlight.
Bards are not a class that those people will generally find to their liking.
But, for the right player, one who can stand in the shadows, let everyone else have glory, and content themselves with knowing that they wouldn't have earned that glory without the bard, then bard might be a perfect class. They fulfill that role perfectly.
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Heh, as far as melee goes, you take two rounds for buffs, blur and mirror image, and you don't get hit, especially if there is a party fighter doing more damage. My Gnome Bard uses a human sized earthbreaker and only goes into melee once he's activated those two defenses, but once they're up he makes a good flanker and decent damage dealer. For spells focus on mass buffs and charms. Haste is a bards best friends (the party will love you for it) Bards and leadership go together well also.
will be able to do many things, but will not be able to do any of them well.
I call BS on that one.
Note that I'm talking about the PF bard here, but it's not that much worse in 3.5.
Bards are among the best loremasters. If you focus a bit on it, they are the best loremasters. Your class bonus will scale faster than the wizard's extra int, your bonus rank and more skill points will mean you can keep up with the number of points, and the loremaster ability will seal the deal.
Bards are very good at buffing the party (and not bad at hexing enemies, either). If you can get your hands on harmonic spell, you can do stuff like hasting everyone and granting them an extra +2 to attack, damage, and certain saves on top of the haste benefits. Next round, he'll slow all enemies and give them a -2 to all the nice stuff to boot.
They're generally really good skill monkeys.
My bard has saved the party's ass numerous times.
Wow, lots of good advice so far. I've played lots of 3.5 bards, it's actually my favorite class, even though yes, it is a lot of singing. But I do find that I enjoy the duplicity of the class a lot and I've pulled a few tricks of my own in my 3.5 days. I'm very excited about PF rules though. Can't wait for my own upcoming scenario. Thanks again gang!
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Oh something that's worth noting now that he's said it, definitely make sure you put at least one rank in all knowledges. Now some people may say to use your one knowledge to have double your level in ranks, but I would recomend never putting any ranks in it and that will give you a free maxed out knowledge and give you an extra SP that can make up for the one you loose to perform. I know I have a tenth level bard, and with one rank in a knowledge skill he has a +12 modifier. for any I bother to develop the bonuses are sick. Bards are even better sages than wizards in pathfinder. Trust me when I joined the party spellcaster had been attempting a sage type character with lots of knowledge, we roleplayed it competatively for a while but he gave up in disgust eventually saying he just couldn't compete. (although his knowlege engineering is still better than mine so he just focuses on that)
You aren't the only one for whom bard is a favorite gnome bards for the win:)!
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One more piece of advice -- don't be afraid to use scrolls! In a level one game, I'd much rather have a bard who casts Sleep from a scroll (DC 11 is roughly a 50% chance of failing for many EL 1 enemies) than a bard who plinks away with a rapier or shortbow.
(No offense to the bards in my on-line group! :-)
Oh something that's worth noting now that he's said it, definitely make sure you put at least one rank in all knowledges.
You can use them untrained. You don't need to put token ranks in any knowledge skills.
Now some people may say to use your one knowledge to have double your level in ranks,
You can't double up on knowledge ranks. The bonus skill points on one knowledge category of your choice don't allow you to break the "max ranks equal level".
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You can use them untrained. You don't need to put token ranks in any knowledge skills.
But you do get +4 total out of a single skill rank.
But you do get +4 total out of a single skill rank....
You can use them untrained. You don't need to put token ranks in any knowledge skills.
I really think that as long as the bard uses all their abilities and avoids trying to "just" be a mage or a fighter they can shine.
But they have to use both their magic and there not poor combat abilites together. Cat's Grace, Mirror Image, and Haste make for one very dangerous bard in melee.
Their singing can save the day often, I can't even recall all the times having a small extra bonus to hit made a fight go from a nail biter to a laugher.
And their skills make them excellent scouts, negotators, researchers, and just plain person to turn to when no one else can do it.
Personally I focus on dex on my bard, either for ranged or melee. It makes it easier for you to hit and makes you harder to hit. Always have a charm type spell for each level you can, but don't overlook buffs and useful spells. Wands and scrolls are you best friends in the magic department, get them and use them.
A bard more then anyone besides the rogue can be awesome in a fight, out of a fight, in the woods, or in a city. Anywhere and everywhere is a chance for the bard to be useful. Sure sometimes others will outshine you, but trust me do what you do (which is as much as you can) and you will shine as often if not more then others.
and don't forget the pathfinder "arcane strike" feat just screams "TAKE ME BARD!"
I've found that the best use for a bard at low levels is crippling the enemy while the rest of the party wipes them out.
Grease, Glitterdust, Hideous Laughter, Daze, Sleep, Cause Fear, Lesser Confusion, Hold Person, etc. There are at least three different 2nd level bard spells that will blind a target.
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I've found that the best use for a bard at low levels is crippling the enemy while the rest of the party wipes them out.
Grease, Glitterdust, Hideous Laughter, Daze, Sleep, Cause Fear, Lesser Confusion, Hold Person, etc. There are at least three different 2nd level bard spells that will blind a target.
These are all awesome save or suck spells. My kobold bard recently had a situation where he and the party were faced with multiple waves of attackers. The judicious application of Grease knocked about 75% of them prone and the good guys were able to carry the day.
Charm person recently turned two potential enemies into allies, and I'm itching to use glitterdust and hold person on the next wave of baddies. :)
And yes, Arcance Strike is excellent. It means that you'll have the only magic weapon in the party for many levels, and then the power level scales up decently, so you either don't need a magic (or even masterwork!) weapon, or can focus on giving your weapon special powers. Combine it with inspire courage and deadly aim, and you've got some serious damage dealing at range, and decent melee performance too!
The fact that it stacks with a magic weapon is nice too (remember it is an untyped bonus to damage only).
and don't forget the pathfinder "arcane strike" feat just screams "TAKE ME BARD!"
I completely overlooked that! Now I know what feat Allezandro will get next!
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not too much to add in here.
the PF bard, with its changes from 3.5, is one of my favorite things about the new game.
focus on the "trouble-shooter" aspect of the class and always have an escape plan in order (including the party, some of them, or just yourself) and you'll be set.
must have spells for me are:
Grease
Invisibility
Haste
Glibness (really? who wouldn't want +30 to bluff, for 10 min/lvl)
other spells will depend on what you want to specialize in, with regards to spellcasting. Bards make good secondary healers, excellent if doubling up on buffs (bears endurance, blur, etc.), and can make very competent illusionists.
Pick a path, and waltz on down it. I like to keep a rough tally of how many times my allies hit by 1, or dealt just that extra 2 hp of damage to fell a foe. With inspire courage and/or haste going on pretty much every round of every battle, those kills are mine!
enjoy the bard, and don't neglect the knowledge skills. with the bardic class boosts, as well as the vitruoso or whatever it's called class ability, being able to ID critters, know ancient languages, and the like are easier than ever.
-t
Note, however, that the original poster is talking about Pathfinder Society organized play, which is still using 3.5 edition until August. So some of your suggestions will have to wait a few months...
My understanding from when I mentioned it a while back was it was a purposeful omission, so that it would stack with almost anything.
Of course it is a swift action to use, but still a very nice feat.
Ok two questions. My perform ranks are in singing to keep my hands clear for melee etc. I figure it would be unlikely, and I may have missed it earlier in the post, but is it possible to maintain the song and attack simultaneously? Just curious.
The second is, with knowledge rank, putting one gives you access to you skill, ya? And then, your bardic knowledge stacks on top of it? Is that how it works?
Ok two questions. My perform ranks are in singing to keep my hands clear for melee etc. I figure it would be unlikely, and I may have missed it earlier in the post, but is it possible to maintain the song and attack simultaneously? Just curious.
Unless the specific bardic performance says otherwise, you can attack while maintaining it. You just can't cast a spell.
The second is, with knowledge rank, putting one gives you access to you skill, ya? And then, your bardic knowledge stacks on top of it? Is that how it works?
No.
Your bardic knowledge already gives you access to all knowledge skills (i.e. you can use them untrained - though that rank will net you a +4 bonus, as you'll get the +3 class skill bonus).
And the bardic knowledge bonus is on top of everything else - and for all knowledge skills, not just those with ranks.