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These are custom (house) rules my group and I use for Crafting. I wanted to get some feedback on them, if possible. :)
This is obviously for the Pathfinder RPG Beta, first off. Secondly, the changes were made because the current rules were a bit flimsy and confusing, and easily abused. A level 5 wizard with a 16 intelligence could, for example, get a Spellcraft of +17 by that point. 5 ranks + 4 intelligence + 3 class bonus + 3 skill focus + 2 masterwork tool. Since the original DC was only 5 + CL, this means that he could easily auto-succeed on anything made for his CL, along with cutting the time in half or missing a spell and not needing a roll.
I don't even want to go into what another player was theorizing a Cleric with the Luck domain could do.
Anyhow, there was also the various skills that could be used. Crafts and Spellcraft. We all wondered why any spellcaster in their right mind would ever bother focusing in a Craft() skill when Spellcraft could be used for everything?
We had also been playing a little wrong at first, using a 10+CL DC instead of 5+CL, and it was working. So that sparked the idea for a change, as below.
In short, Spellcraft has so many other uses besides crafting. It is good for casting in combat, identifying other spells in battle, identifying potions instantly or scrolls, etc. Crafts, on the other hand, hardly see a spotlight. Sure you can use them to make a few things, but the time needed is incredible for anything more than a 10GP item, so it's hardly worth it.
Thus, the DC for using Craft on something as opposed to Spellcraft was lowered. Now, I fully assume most casters to still have full ranks in Spellcraft, but now a caster can also 'specialize' in a specific Craft. Our Cleric, for example, went with Gemcutting (he is a Half-Elf, so it had a thematic sense in Golarion as well). He also has Craft Arms and Armor, so is especially good at crafting Augment Crystals (from the Magic Item Compendium). However, he is now wondering about Craft Wondrous Items as well, for the Mirrors and Lenses. Other Crafts similarly see interesting synergies.
You'll also notice that only Craft Wondrous Items and Craft Magic Arms and Armor have multiple Craft skills associated with them. This is because it was agreed that they are easily the most used craft feats and can produce the widest variety of items. The other ones hardly see the spotlight, so letting one Craft skill represent each seemed fair.
On the DC increases:
Originally, it said +5 for every missing requirement, but it was not clear on how many requirements that referenced. It was clarified at one point by Jason that spells could not be missed for consumable items, and that it was a +2/+5/+10 increase for aiding/missing spell on other list/missing spell on own list. That seemed a bit backwards though. Why would a Wizard have a harder time making an item when he was missing, say, Magic Missile, and not Cure Light Wounds? It seemed like it would be easier to miss a spell that the Wizard could feasibly learn than one he could not, so they were switched.
I also added in high DC increases for missing an alignment/race/class ability, or just Caster Level. These are because, by your average sane caster, they should not be attempted. Cursed items need to come from somewhere, and it makes perfect sense that they typically come from crafters reaching beyond their own power capabilities.
Lastly, the half-craft DC. I upped it from +5 for other items because of the sheer amount of time that could be saved. Saving 30 hours is a big difference from 100, so it scales accordingly. The 'cut-offs' are based off the minor/moderate/major magic item price differences, which also equate somewhat with levels (+5 is for items priced around a third of what a 7th level PC will have and below, +10 for items above that and below what an 11th-12th level PC will have and below, +15 for the rest). It's also a bit more flexible now, as well. A PC can craft a 10,000 GP item (which would normally take 80 hours) in 40 hours with a +10 to the DC, or 32 with a +5.
Anyhow, any feedback is appreciated. Thanks!
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Alternate Crafting DCs
Base DC
If using Craft (): 5 + CL.
If using Spellcraft: 10 + CL.
Applicable Crafts for each feat/subset:
- Craft Magic Arms & Armor (Weapons): Weaponsmithing
- Craft Magic Arms & Armor (Armor): Armorsmithing
- Craft Magic Arms & Armor (Augment Crystals): Gemcutting
- Brew Potion: Alchemy
- Forge Ring: Gemcutting
- Craft Rod: Blacksmithing
- Scribe Scroll: Calligraphy
- Craft Stave: Blacksmithing
- Craft Wondrous Items (Bags, Clothing, etc.): Tailoring
- Craft Wondrous Items (Sculptures, Figurines, etc.): Blacksmithing
- Craft Wondrous Items (Mirrors, Lenses, etc.): Gemcutting
- Craft Wondrous Items (Elixirs, Solvents, etc.): Alchemy
- Craft Wondrous Items (Tome, Manual, etc.): Calligraphy
Missing required skill-based requirement: +5
Missing required spell (on crafter's spell-list): +5
Missing required spell (on other spell-list): +10
Missing required race: +15
Missing required alignment: +15
Missing required class feature / class levels: +15
Missing required Caster Level: +10+X (X is the difference between the crafter's current CL and the required CL)
Assisted with a requirement (spell): +2
Assisted with a requirement (skill): +2
Reduce crafting time by up to 32 hours (max. half normal time): +5
Reduce crafting time by up to 112 hours (max. half normal time): +10
Reduce crafting time by up to 800 hours (max. half normal time): +15
When calculating the final bonus to their Craft or Spellcraft roll, only permanent bonuses that were present the entire time of crafting count.
If a user wishes, more specific Crafts can be used in place of some of the above ones. For example, if a Ranger that only makes magic bows and arrows has Craft (Bowmaking), he can use that in conjunction with Craft Magic Arms and Armor to make magic bows and arrows. This is entirely up to the player, it is obviously more beneficial from a mechanical viewpoint to use Craft (Weaponsmithing) (so it can apply to every weapon) but if he only ever makes bows/arrows and feels it would be more in character, that is perfectly fine.
Those assisting with a spell on the craft need to expend the spell each day of crafting, but otherwise need not spend any time with the item. If they are assisting with a skill, however, they need to be present at least half of the time.
If an item is made without changes (missing any requirements, speeding the crafting time up, getting assistance) then no check is needed, the success rate is always 100%.
Lastly, some requirements (race, alignment, class features, etc.) cannot be assisted with, and the DC goes up by a large amount (+15) if they are missing. However, they can be faked with a successful Use Magic Device check made once per 8 hours of attempted craft. Like the final Craft/Spellcraft roll, only bonuses that are present the entire time of crafting count. If a Use Magic Device check fails, then those 8 hours are wasted. If the Use Magic Device check fails by 5 or more, the crafter also wastes the 500 gp used for that day. In either case, the project can be resumed the following day.
These are custom (house) rules my group and I use for Crafting. I wanted to get some feedback on them, if possible. :)
This is obviously for the Pathfinder RPG Beta, first off. Secondly, the changes were made because the current rules were a bit flimsy and confusing, and easily abused. A level 5 wizard with a 16 intelligence could, for example, get a Spellcraft of +17 by that point. 5 ranks + 4 intelligence + 3 class bonus + 3 skill focus + 2 masterwork tool. Since the original DC was only 5 + CL, this means that he could easily auto-succeed on anything made for his CL, along with cutting the time in half or missing a spell and not needing a roll.
I don't even want to go into what another player was theorizing a Cleric with the Luck domain could do.
Anyhow, there was also the various skills that could be used. Crafts and Spellcraft. We all wondered why any spellcaster in their right mind would ever bother focusing in a Craft() skill when Spellcraft could be used for everything?
We had also been playing a little wrong at first, using a 10+CL DC instead of 5+CL, and it was working. So that sparked the idea for a change, as below.
In short, Spellcraft has so many other uses besides crafting. It is good for casting in combat, identifying other spells in battle, identifying potions instantly or scrolls, etc. Crafts, on the other hand, hardly see a spotlight. Sure you can use them to make a few things, but the time needed is incredible for anything more than a 10GP item, so it's hardly worth it.
Thus, the DC for using Craft on something as opposed to Spellcraft was lowered. Now, I fully assume most casters to still have full ranks in Spellcraft, but now a caster can also 'specialize' in a specific Craft. Our Cleric, for example, went with Gemcutting (he is a Half-Elf, so it had a thematic sense in Golarion as well). He also has Craft Arms and Armor, so is especially good at crafting Augment Crystals (from the Magic Item Compendium). However, he is now wondering about Craft Wondrous Items as well, for...
I read through your modifications and I like what I see. I plan to playtest these in my home game. During the month of May, my group is taking a downtime and many of them are planning to craft items, both magical and mundane. As it turns out, I have been using very similar craft skills for constructing items as you have listed. In addition to the ones you have listed. I allowed the use of Professional skills to take the place of say Craft: Gemcutting for Profession: Jeweler. Otherwise, we seem to be right on.
Of course, this will allow me to use your modified craft rules since my player characters already use a skill system for crafting magic items. Anyway, I will get back to you on how they worked after our downtime is completed. Hopefully that won't be too long.
Thanks ahead of time for the cool ideas.
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Great! Let me know how they work out. They seem to be doing well in our current game. Most of the time the Cleric (Craft MA&A) and Wizard (Wondrous) stick with the 100% successes, though the Cleric has been tempted a few times to make things a few levels above his CL, despite the high DC increase. Greed over risk of failure. :)
Right, I need to go back and look at Spellcraft, because maybe it was just common sense or 3.5 holdovers, but I didn't see any way to turn Spellcraft into Everycraft. Maybe I'm misinterpreting the OP, but that stuck in my brain and biased my perception of the rest of the post. I shall return with informed comments at a later time.
You'll only find it in the downloadable web enhancement for Magic Items. See page 18 "Creating Magic Items", it should state the new rule in the first paragraph. It also lists the skills useable at the end of each craft type, and all of them include Spellcraft.
I like the rules, overall. I'd be interested to hear how players receive it. I personally wouldn't mind seeing more usability out of my craft skills, however as a Fighter wanting to be a Blacksmith on the side... the lack of skills hurt.
I don't see why a Fighter that wants to be good at Craft (weaponmaking) and (armorsmithing), and also climb, ride and intimidate... has to be above average in Intelligence (he would need a 14 to 16 Int, depending on his favored class from race).
Nothing about those sets of skills really screams "near-genius thinker" to me...
I dunno.. I guess I just still have an issue with the lack of skillpoints for some classes.
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You'll only find it in the downloadable web enhancement for Magic Items. See page 18 "Creating Magic Items", it should state the new rule in the first paragraph. It also lists the skills useable at the end of each craft type, and all of them include Spellcraft.
I like the rules, overall. I'd be interested to hear how players receive it. I personally wouldn't mind seeing more usability out of my craft skills, however as a Fighter wanting to be a Blacksmith on the side... the lack of skills hurt.
I don't see why a Fighter that wants to be good at Craft (weaponmaking) and (armorsmithing), and also climb, ride and intimidate... has to be above average in Intelligence (he would need a 14 to 16 Int, depending on his favored class from race).
Nothing about those sets of skills really screams "near-genius thinker" to me...I dunno.. I guess I just still have an issue with the lack of skillpoints for some classes.
The players like them so far. It particularly works well with the "Master Crafter" feat, since that lets a character use their ranks in a Craft as their Caster Level, and the lower DC means a spell or two can be missed in the requirements. One cleric I have uses both Spellcraft and Craft (Gemcutting) with Craft Magic Arms & Armor. He takes his time when he's enchanting basic weapons and armor, but can really speed up when he goes for the Augment Crystals (MIC).
As for the low skill points, yeah, that is more a class issue than one with Crafting. Though do recall that a Human gets an extra skill point, and if Fighter is his favored class then he can get another from each level there. So a Fighter with a simple +1 INT could feasibly have 5 skill points each level, more than enough for full ranks in all five skills you mentioned there. :) Like you mentioned, a different race would need more points, but the Fighter doesn't have to have full ranks in everything really. With the new one-time +3 class bonus to a class skill, even just 1 rank isn't so bad.
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Right, I need to go back and look at Spellcraft, because maybe it was just common sense or 3.5 holdovers, but I didn't see any way to turn Spellcraft into Everycraft. Maybe I'm misinterpreting the OP, but that stuck in my brain and biased my perception of the rest of the post. I shall return with informed comments at a later time.
Like the other poster said, the information is from the web enhancement on magic items. They include a new DC check with crafting and some variable rules. The thing with Spellcraft is it's allowed with every single craft feat, so there is no real reason to take a more specific Craft() when Spellcraft can be used for all Craft feats and more. Hence my change.