Ok... everyone's entitled to their own version of Pathfinder. Let's have a fair "discussion".
Personally, I hate warforged. I don't hate constructs. I hate the concept of the warforged race. I know many may like them, but I don't. It breaks the Tolkienesque version of fantasy that I like.
So my request of Paizo: Please do not foist any warforged-lovin' "army of constructs" type of ideas upon Golarion.
Thanks. Flame away.
I don't demand any Tolkienism, but I dislike warforged anyway. If they followed the actual construct rules, I'd be happier, but the arbitrary addition of a Con score, and calling them "Living Constructs," just smacks of Piers Anthony (The Apprentice Adept) too much to be dismissed. Are they supposed to fall in love with unicorns, too? (Never mind, Sebastian might like that too much)
An army of unicorn constructs is ok. Just not warforged. ;)
I don't mind them.. although I prefer keeping the warforged unique to Eberron, myself.
Prior to the release of Eberron, I had created my own 'living construct' race. The backstory being similar to the origins of the Eternals.. who also have personalities and free thought (until they come back for a memory wipe).
I wouldn't mind seeing something to that effect, although I admit it has a very "robots in space" feel, compared to standard fantasy. Perhaps something for a later, more advanced technology book, situated on a different planet in the solar system?
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Violently opposed to anything Eberron.
Actually, I have a player that is blackmailing me right now - he claims that if his currently player dies he is rolling up a warforged!
Anyway, what do people think about The Ironborn from Malhavoc's Book of Iron Might (they are allowed in my campaigns).
Violently opposed to anything Eberron.
Actually, I have a player that is blackmailing me right now - he claims that if his currently player dies he is rolling up a warforged!
Anyway, what do people think about The Ironborn from Malhavoc's Book of Iron Might (they are allowed in my campaigns).
Not my cup of tea either. I personally prefer PC races to be as close to human as possible. The further you get, the more the campaign focuses on the PC condition within the campaign world instead of their role in the story.
Kinda the same problem I had with the Dark Elf Trilogy. It was a GREAT series of books, and Drizzt was an awesome character. However, for me, it makes for a horrible PC.
Eberron, and the warforged, are not open content. We couldn't use them in Golarion even if we wanted to. (which we don't)
I guess I was referring to the concept more than the name. Unless the concept is copyright?
Well, the OP is talking about an "Army of Constructs" for Golarion, not specifically the warforged.
I like the warforged concept, but not its execution¹. As to your point about them being in Golarion, I agree. Warforged are really tied to Eberron and should stay there. Now, if you want to add some other kind of construct, go for it.
¹The 'quasi-construct' approach always irked me. Kirth Gersen ninja'ed me.
I like the warforged, but I agree that they don't mesh well with a "typical" fantasy world.
I don't really like the name "warforged", though; it's very clunky. "You see a warforged walking down the street. The...warforged's...hands... Is warforged's even a word?"
How about WF apathy? Never played with, WF, gave all WF minis to my nephew.
Maybe I wouldn't mind them if I got involved in an Eberron campaign, but I don't want them in Golarion. It wouldn't surprise me that much if they eventually found a little locale to fit something like the WF in, given the diversity we've seen heretofore, but even then I'd most likely omit them from "my" Golarion.
EDIT: Whoa, what time bubble was I caught in? Now that I see JJ's post, I wrap it around me like a warm blanket.
I don't really like the name "warforged", though; it's very clunky.
It's beautifully consistent with WotC's juvenile obsession with the words "war" and "blade" when naming stuff. It reminds me of the guy in Super Troopers seeing how many times he can say "meow" to the dude he pulls over.
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Well, I love the warforged myself but my DM, Vigil, said they wouldn't be allowed in his Golarion. However, he recently picked up the Zobeck Gazetteer by Wolgang Baur, and he said he is allowing the Gearforged from that. Apparently, according to my DM, the Zobeck Gazetteer stuff would fit in the River Kingdoms in Golarion.
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Well, I love the warforged myself but my DM, Vigil, said they wouldn't be allowed in his Golarion. However, he recently picked up the Zobeck Gazetteer by Wolgang Baur, and he said he is allowing the Gearforged from that. Apparently, according to my DM, the Zobeck Gazetteer stuff would fit in the River Kingdoms in Golarion.
good point. damn. golarion is almost big enough for anything.
I love the idea of the Warforged. I also think Wolfgang and Monte both did an excellent job with the Iron Born and Gearforged. The idea of PC constructs or Living constructs may not go well in Galorian, but they are Fantasy, just as much as elves, orcs, and dragons. They are just a different type of fantasy. Along the same ideas as clockwork magic, psionics, and airships. All of these things are fantasy, so I say let it all in. After all Pathfinder is a set of rules that can be used to play out a story in any type of fantasy world (Just as 3.5 was able to). I don't think Paizo is ready to limit anyone's fantasy. In fact, I would say they would like to make Pathfinder the perfect vehicle to play all types of fantasy worlds from Gothic Horror, to LOTR, to Swashbuckling Piracy, and everything in between.
Just my 2 cps
Anyone complaining that adding warforged to D&D breaks Tolkienism has a very odd definition of what D&D is. Tolkien is just one ingredient of many in a big ol' fantasy melting pot.
As for warforged... L. Frank Baum had 'em. Sure, they were called Tin Woodsmen and Tik-tok Men and Scarecrows. But they're the same beastie.
I enjoy warforged, although I might not put them in Eberron. They could be used for Numeria's Metal Men, but I suspect that those are more monstrous than playable.
Anyone complaining that adding warforged to D&D breaks Tolkienism has a very odd definition of what D&D is. Tolkien is just one ingredient of many in a big ol' fantasy melting pot.
Sorry, your second statement in conjunction with your first statement is confusing to me.
I agree with your second statement. I disagree with the first. I believe what I was trying to say was that I like my fantasy along the lines of Tolkien's. Adding "an army of constructs playable as a PC race" concept to the campaign setting breaks that for me.
There appears to a confusion between what "D&D is" and what "Tolkienism is". Maybe Demiurge didn't type what he thought he typed? Anyone, WF surely wouldn't break D&D, but it would surely break a Tolkienesque campaign. I love fried oysters and I love chocolate, but I'm pretty sure they should remain in separate recipes.
Yeah, there's a difference between "It breaks D&D" and "It breaks D&D, for me"... which is what "not fitting in a Tolkien based setting" means.
Personally, I feel the straight up clockwork style constructs would be fantasy enough. I'm thinking C3P0 in Episode 1, with the whirring, spinning internals.
The wood/stone/metal moving 'just cause' feels a bit meh. I know we have Golems of one solid material running around in standard D&D.. but somehow that always felt fine as an "animated creature" type thing.
I'm fine with an animated dining set encounter in standard D&D... I need more.. "clockworks" for an acceptable PC race.
Maybe Demiurge didn't type what he thought he typed?
Yeah, maybe he meant Gygaxian Naturalism.
Maybe Demiurge didn't type what he thought he typed?Yeah, maybe he meant Gygaxian Naturalism.
You're so banned from this thread! ;)
HAHAHAHA
<knee slaps>
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Warforged as a concept can't be copyrighted...it's a concept far beyond a game...the Name is definitely copyrighted.
I like Warforged, they are interesting, if played correctly...truthfully most of my players play "human" no matter what their character's race is...
My wife is playing a Warforged named IVI, it is an ancient forged who spent a century trapped under a log in Xen'drik...she has a pair of spectacles, likes to pretend to need them to read, she also likes watching other races sleep and has no concept of personal space and will often stare at the other characters from 2-3 inches away while they sleep...talk about a rude awakening...
Couldn't care less. Have robots. Don't have robots. If they're done right and don't surpass the human population, i don't have a problem with soulmechs.
Though the idea of robots that do surpass human population, and someday wake up and start getting second thoughts about this "servant" nonsense does have potential.
I'd rather have "Robot vs Dino Planet!" Choose a planet sufficiently far enough away.
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Kirth, the only high level 3x fighter I've ever played that could hang was Claudius, Warforged Fighter/Warforged Juggernaut. Dude was a nightmare for wizards, high enough Fort that SoD was irrelevant, immune to most of the SoS spells. He ate most wizbangs for lunch, frankly.
It was an Eberron campaign, naturally, but he(?) was a fun character to play at high levels.
However, I think the concept should stay in Eberron, as the warforged and their creators (and the disaster that befell their land) are so unique to that setting, they'd feel out of place anywhere else.
Now, if anyone would want to discuss changelings for other settings...
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4
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I think "clockwork" creatures have always been apart of fantasy, so a "clockwork" person is going to show up as time goes on. I like the idea, but it's a matter of population for me. They need to be rare and wonderous.
And though warforged cannot be used do to legal reasons I think a 'clockwork subtype' could be easily used to make-up a whole new group of monsters and lawful outsiders. I mean, look at the Kolyarut, all they are is "warforged angles" and the Zelekhut too for that matter.
With as many Shield Guardians and Soul Dolls as there are out there, a "warforged" type monster/player race is bond to happen and keep happening. It is the next step. So now we are just talking a matter of flavor text and worldly population. I like the idea.
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While I like the Ironborn concept, I also dislike the warforged one. The problem is not so much mechanics/rules-based, but more on the background related to them, specifically the mass-production and relative dffusion of warforged in the Eberron setting.
The living construct idea (or the clockwork one) breaks the fantasy mold so much to me that I like it best when limited to a very small number.
A cadre of sentient constructs created by a mad archmage/artificer/aboleth sage for a conflict long gone recently awakened in region X and started to spread in the world; as their creator is gone with the secret of their existence, they are few in number and thusly very rare. Fine to me.
A living construct adventurer is just as rare as a civilized, law abiding, urbanite hill giant.
But industrial lines of creation ("gimme 200 standard ones, 100 small and fast units, and... let's say 50 of the bigger ones. And spare parts.") is a step too much into the high-powered steampunk atmosphere for my liking.
But industrial lines of creation ("gimme 200 standard ones, 100 small and fast units, and... let's say 50 of the bigger ones. And spare parts.") is a step too much into the high-powered steampunk atmosphere for my liking.
You would so hate how I run eberron then :)
Any how mass production is no worse then the YE magic item wal-mart. And eberron amplified that big time. So on that point they fit, I don't think they would fit most settings being mass produced.
How ever I could see them being made in small numbers in other settings. Look at the shield Guardian there is not much diff in them and even the look is similar. I could see a maural some where with info on just how to make them. But out side Eberron /stream punk I do not see em mass produced.
I recall I used warforged as a cult once, they captured the spirits of the dead and "Remade " them, now they had flashes of past life but game wise they were warforged.
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You would so hate how I run eberron then :)
Not really. I understand that the whole setting is made with that "common power level" in mind, and as such I won't like to play a game in it as a baseline.
Good fun and happy gaming for each and everyone who like that, though. :)Any how mass production is no worse then the YE magic item wal-mart.
A-yup. Another big gripe of mine.
yeah I hate the magic wal-mart and eberron is the only place I run you will find them. Any other game and you can forget the magic item shopping list and be happy with the little you find. I tend toward 1e/2e style of magic item creation.
Also the magic wal-mart was kinda dumb as it costed xp to make? yeah we have loads of mages somewhere burning hard eared xp so you can have a crate of +1 long swords, yep that totally makes sense huh
I like them, I use them. They featured in my last campaign as aboleth creations for the overthrow of the surface world. Now of course they can become another underworld scourge. That will teach those silly drow!
That's pretty cool.
There's something too modern in Eberron for me. I don't really see Eberron as medieval fantasy. Maybe it's not supposed to be. I see Eberron as something akin to a more classic fantasy version of Star Wars. And from that viewpoint, I'd rather keep my genres more separate.
I love d20 Modern.
I love Star Wars.
I love Tolkien.
However, I don't like mixing these concepts to any significant degree.
I'd rather have "Robot vs Dino Planet!" Choose a planet sufficiently far enough away.
Pluto? Oh sorry, it's not a planet any more.
yeah I hate the magic wal-mart and eberron is the only place I run you will find them.
Why do you allow it in eberron if you hate it?
yeah I hate the magic wal-mart and eberron is the only place I run you will find them.Why do you allow it in eberron if you hate it?
Well mostly as its a built as part of the world. They took the magic mart in to account. It fits the world. You have mass produced war machines, Dragon marked house that control the markets of nations much like corporatism or the mob. You have artificer that make things of magic as there resion for being. Mage writes that craft items. In eberron wizards and cleric make very, very few of the Magic items. You have shops ran by people that make items. Class made just to make magic items
It's in the worlds bones, so it fits. In other worlds it feels tacted on and the world it's self does not take into account that you have magic item shops. They are there but seem to have almost no impact. They do not fit any more then duke nukem fits in greyhawk or The old realms (He may fit in the new one however)
I have this idea in the back of my mind for a magic Wal Mart; in every Wal Mart there's gates to every other Wal Mart so you can go through the gate in the automotive section in Mesquite, Tx and come out in Gainesville Florida.
Even if they could I do not see this happing. As to why well the price Of items. Each wal-mart sets its own . There is a base but they will go up and then down. We have 3 in 30 miles the price of items from one to the next can very wildly. Say something like shampoo it could go from .98 to 1.50 between the 3 stores.
It would make the stores fight each other in a price war or have set prices across the board. Bad for the parent corp is all.
You say that now, but when a price war raiding party hits your store you'll see
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They make great cohorts and npc's/threats, but as a PC for a non-Eberron setting...uh, no.
And this is from the guy who likes to play kobolds! :)
Shifters (almost made an unfortunate typo there) and changelings are neat ideas though that would fit in okay. I could see a shifter population forming in Darkmoon Vale as some sort of dilution of the lycanthropic bloodlines that are flowing there.
I think warforged might be used sparingly for interesting flavor.
Say, for instance, that a PC was plane-shifted to Mechanus and the planar energy and/or the plane's inhabitants captured and "made improvements" on the character before sending him or her back home.
We are Borg.
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our ownResistance is Futile
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Mad love for constructs. The story of Pygmalion is a great influence to fantasy lit. So is the Golem and Frankenstein.
Looking for to seening the clockwork men in Zobeck.
I'm seriously thinking about coming up with my own clockwork race for a gameworld and applying Pathfinder to it. I will not be using materials that are not OGL for it though.