I have some questions about CMB that I someone can help me with.
Some of my players and I are debating about trip, and what bonuses are applied to it.
The way its list you get:
CMB = Strength + BAB + size
+
Specific modifiers
It's the "specific modifiers" that are causing issues. I read specific modifiers to be things like +2 from improved trip or +2 tripping weapon bonus.
My players think the "specific modifiers" are anything that applies to an attack, weapon focus, bard song, true strike, flanking, weaponn bonus etc...
My feeling is if you include these then what makes a trip roll any different than a normal attack roll?
Also, if you get multiple attacks can you trip multiple times?
Any and all help is appreciated.
Thanks,
1) That's why I like the "touch attack + ability check" version of trip/grapple, because then it's much more clear what applies to the attack part and what applies to the ability check part. I think the intent was to limit the number of bonuses you can apply to a CMB check, but it's not clear.
2) Since it doesn't say "Tripping is a standard action", that means that you can substitute it for an attack. So yes, you can have multiple trip attempts per round.
The way its list you get:
CMB = Strength + BAB + size
+ Specific modifiersIt's the "specific modifiers" that are causing issues. I read specific modifiers to be things like +2 from improved trip or +2 tripping weapon bonus.
My players think the "specific modifiers" are anything that applies to an attack, weapon focus, bard song, true strike, flanking, weaponn bonus etc...
You're reading it correctly - the bonuses your players are mentioning are hardly "specific" or "special". I would say the language was made to allow some possible interpretation for inclusion of additional modifiers - it was playtesting after all. I personally don't.
That said, we will see if any changes are made.
As for evidence of the above - check the paragraph after the formula - it includes a +4 for an opponent being Stunned. Stunned normally gives a +2 (plus loss of dex) to the attacker, so obviously *that* normal modifier isn't included. So they apparently spell out any modifiers that apply.
And what Hogarth said on multiple trips - it's an attack action, so can replace any of your iterative (or other) attacks, with lower BAB if that's the attack you're using. There's a general feeling that the flurry of blows penalty should apply to CMB checks, but as above it technically wouldn't.
And what Hogarth said on multiple trips - it's an attack action, so can replace any of your iterative (or other) attacks, with lower BAB if that's the attack you're using. There's a general feeling that the flurry of blows penalty should apply to CMB checks, but as above it technically wouldn't.
I disagree.
Flurry of Blows doesn't give a penalty to the attack rolls.
Instead, it changes your BAB. There is a special column in the Monk table that lists your BAB when you use Flurry. Because CMB uses BAB, and because Flurry changes your BAB, it seems pretty clear that if you Flurry of Trip, your multiple CMB rolls use the lower Flurry BAB, not your base BAB.
And what Hogarth said on multiple trips - it's an attack action, so can replace any of your iterative (or other) attacks, with lower BAB if that's the attack you're using. There's a general feeling that the flurry of blows penalty should apply to CMB checks, but as above it technically wouldn't.I disagree.
Flurry of Blows doesn't give a penalty to the attack rolls.
Instead, it changes your BAB. There is a special column in the Monk table that lists your BAB when you use Flurry. Because CMB uses BAB, and because Flurry changes your BAB, it seems pretty clear that if you Flurry of Trip, your multiple CMB rolls use the lower Flurry BAB, not your base BAB.
That would certainly be a strong argument in favor of using the penalty, however the column is "Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus", not Base Attack Bonus, which is what is explicitly used in the formula.
I would certainly use the penalty, but as I said, "technically" no.
And what Hogarth said on multiple trips - it's an attack action, so can replace any of your iterative (or other) attacks, with lower BAB if that's the attack you're using. There's a general feeling that the flurry of blows penalty should apply to CMB checks, but as above it technically wouldn't.I disagree.
Flurry of Blows doesn't give a penalty to the attack rolls.
Instead, it changes your BAB. There is a special column in the Monk table that lists your BAB when you use Flurry. Because CMB uses BAB, and because Flurry changes your BAB, it seems pretty clear that if you Flurry of Trip, your multiple CMB rolls use the lower Flurry BAB, not your base BAB.
That would certainly be a strong argument in favor of using the penalty, however the column is "Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus", not Base Attack Bonus, which is what is explicitly used in the formula.
I would certainly use the penalty, but as I said, "technically" no.
Well, maybe this will help then.
Clearly, in the interest of space, or maybe just an oversight, they left out the word "Base" in the column header. It should say "Flurry of Blows Base Attack Bonus".
If it isn't a base attack bonus, then what is it? An extra bonus you add to the BAB? Certainly not. No way a 9th level monk is +12/+12/+7 before counting STR or magic items or other buffs.
So if it's not an extra bonus, it must be a replacement of the BAB. Making it a BAB, no matter what the column header says.
But don't take my word for it, it's written in the book:
Flurry of Blows (Ex): When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, he may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table 4–8.
I bolded/italicized the pertinent proof.
So the -2 penalty is not a penalty to hit applied after the BAB, but it is, in fact, a -2 penalty that reduces the BAB (possibly the only penalty in the game that does this - I'm not aware of any other penalties, or bonuses, that change the BAB off the top of my head).
An interested side effect of this is if you are using two weapons or a double weapon the penalty to hit does not apply to your CMB. So if you're CMB (due to multiple attacks) is +12/+7 then it's +12/+12/+7 if your trying to trip with a quarter staff and using both ends.
The same also applies if you're nauseated, shaken, or any penalty that does affect your BAB (very few do) or your strength.
So even if you're covered in penalties (shaken, wrong end of prayer, etc...) you're CMB is still fine.
An interested side effect of this is if you are using two weapons or a double weapon the penalty to hit does not apply to your CMB. So if you're CMB (due to multiple attacks) is +12/+7 then it's +12/+12/+7 if your trying to trip with a quarter staff and using both ends.
The same also applies if you're nauseated, shaken, or any penalty that does affect your BAB (very few do) or your strength.
So even if you're covered in penalties (shaken, wrong end of prayer, etc...) you're CMB is still fine.
This is true.
We figured this out recently in our RotRL campaign, in the first dungeon we entered at level 1 and began encountering bad stuff that put effects on us (like nauseated). So, time to grapple the heck out of the bad guys since we're too nauseated to hit them with our swords, but our nausea doesn't imaact our grappling at all.
Our monk is loving it.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, he may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table 4–8.I bolded/italicized the pertinent proof.
So the -2 penalty is not a penalty to hit applied after the BAB, but it is, in fact, a -2 penalty that reduces the BAB (possibly the only penalty in the game that does this - I'm not aware of any other penalties, or bonuses, that change the BAB off the top of my head).
I'm convinced. Thanks Blake, this one is all yours.
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I have some questions about CMB that I someone can help me with.
Some of my players and I are debating about trip, and what bonuses are applied to it.
The way its list you get:
CMB = Strength + BAB + size
+
Specific modifiers
It's the "specific modifiers" that are causing issues. I read specific modifiers to be things like +2 from improved trip or +2 tripping weapon bonus.
Any and all help is appreciated.
Thanks,
Direct from the book:
Performing a Combat Maneuver
When you perform a combat maneuver, make an attack
roll and add your CMB to the result plus any bonuses you
might have due to specific feats or abilities.
What are abilities? Spells, Spell like, Supernatural, etc.
What Feats? Any that state specificly the maneuver, refer to an attack roll, etc.
Weapon Focus
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make
using the selected weapon.
Inspire Courage (Su): An affected
ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against
charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and
weapon damage rolls.
Prayer
You bring special favor upon yourself and your allies while bringing
disfavor to your enemies. You and each of your allies gain a +1 luck
bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saves, and skill checks,
while each of your foes takes a –1 penalty on such rolls.
The 3 above examples could be interpreted this way because they state that the effect modifies "attack rolls". What about conditional modifiers, for example shakened, sickened, fatigued, nauseated, etc. do they or should they affect the target?
I hope a designer or writer can clarify this because we debate it all day and express our opinions but we still don't have finality to the issue.
I hope a designer or writer can clarify this because we debate it all day and express our opinions but we still don't have finality to the issue.
No doubt it will be far more carefully spelled out in the final version.
Being over specific in the Beta would have discouraged play-testing of different ways. Leaving it open let people interpret things to make them work (and then hopefully share that interpretation).
My personal "interpretation" is anything that gives a bonus to both attack rolls and ability checks modifies CMB - though I thought of that as more of a house rule at the time.
Here is some clarification from the fighter playtest forum:
"Quandary wrote:
Jason, there's still so much confusion about what bonuses apply to Combat Maneuvers, offensively and defensively - Perhaps it's reasonable to assume that all Attack bonuses apply when attacking, but then there are "Defensive" bonuses like Fighting Defensively/Full Defense/DEX... (which helped against Trips and stuff in 3.5)
Dread Explains it pretty clearly here and Jason agrees with a moderate correction:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Dread wrote:
Ive been reading the Attack roll as merely rolling a d20 and adding the CMB to it vs DC 15, and not making two rolls, so allowing the Weapon Training to stack with this would be an additional plus.
Dread is correct here (Except it is DC 15 + opponent's CMB). This language will be clarified. Please make sure to bring this back up when we get to the combat chapter.
So it's not an 'attack roll' the way we think of it, it is simply:
D20 + CMB versus 15 + Opponents CMB (+ any damage you took on an AoO)"
Go to: Link here
So, if it's not really an attack roll, then things that apply to an attack roll do not apply to it.
Only feats that specifically affect the CMB (Improved trip, grapple, disarm etc...), weapons that help (disarm bonus from a whip) or abilities (monsters improved grab bonus).
Specific means specific to CMB.