I am currently developing a game setting as well as an initial 3 module mini-campaign arc set in a dark feudal Japan like world. I am doing a collaborative publication with one of the companies on the registry for PFRPG Compatibility license.
Questions:
1. I want to create expanded rules for martial arts, including new feats, new classes, fighting schools - many ideas that came from 2nd edition that were lost in 3e. How can I do this and remain compatible?
2. The Complete Warrior - Samurai class is terrible and I need a samurai class. I'm thinking also like 2nd edition Fighters Handbook. The Samurai was required to specialize in Katana, Wakizashi and Daikyu long bow, after which any bluff/intimidation skills were secondary. Can I develop my own Samurai class and remain compatible.
3. Other classes with same consideration as number 2: Yakuza, Ninja. Hatamoto (courtier samurai).
4. I am not using Oriental Adventures as even a reference, but essentially I am creating a new type of Japanese setting with rules, classes, feats, spells for Pathfinder system - how do I insure compatibility, since some rules/ideas are brand new, some are recreations of poor designs in 3e and previous.
Not to worry, the setting I'm developing has nothing to do with OA or Rokugan, yet will be a very much Japanese setting. Its intended to be a dark fantasy world - in many ways akin to Ravenloft, but not that system either, a new one. It will be published OGL by June 2009, with intents of republication in August, once PF is a reality.
Does any of the ideas above cross a line in compatibility issues, and do I need to work more closely with Paizo staff to guarantee compatibility?
GP
PS: the setting itself won't be ready until after August 2009, but the 3 adventure arc is intended for publication soon...
1. I want to create expanded rules for martial arts, including new feats, new classes, fighting schools - many ideas that came from 2nd edition that were lost in 3e. How can I do this and remain compatible?
I'd say that as long as you don't move things too far away from PF, like changing the skill system again, or other totally weird stuff, you should be fine.
Can I develop my own Samurai class and remain compatible.
I don't see why not. As long as his class skills contains stuff like perception rather than spot/listen, it's going to be fine.
I liked the Oriental Adventures/Rokugan d20 version myself, though of course it made heavy use of their new technique feats and the different Rokugani clans. Still, it should work quite well.
3. Other classes with same consideration as number 2: Yakuza, Ninja. Hatamoto (courtier samurai).
Couldn't the yakuza simply be represented by rogues? For Ninja, I like the OA version - otherwise a mix of rogue and monk, or a class that is like that, should work. As for courtier: Rokugan d20 had one, too.
And all that should be fine for Rokugan.
how do I insure compatibility, since some rules/ideas are brand new, some are recreations of poor designs in 3e and previous.
You should keep in things like CMB, and generally assure that people with the PF core book can pick up your campaign and use it without much hassle.
Here is the variant Samurai I developed:
Class Skills: The samurai’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowedge (Int), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
HD: d10
BAB: Full (+1/level)
Good saves: Fort, Will
Level Special
1st Ancestral weapon, Mounted Combat
2nd Quick Draw
3rd Iaijustsu strike +1d6
4th Weapon Focus
5th Iaijustsu strike +2d6
6th Dazzling Display
7th Iaijustsu strike +3d6
8th Greater Weapon Focus
9th Iaijustsu strike +4d6
10th Stunning Defense
11th Iaijustsu strike +5d6
12th Deadly Stroke
13th Iaijustsu strike +6d6
14th Staredown
15th Iaijustsu strike +7d6
16th Cut magic
17th Iaijustsu strike +8d6
18th Wraithstrike
19th Iaijustsu strike +9d6
20th Frightful Presence
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A samurai is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (except tower shields). He also gains proficiency in an exotic melee weapon appropriate to his or her homeland/culture (e.g., bastard sword (katana) for a medieval japanese analog; wareaxe for a dwarf; etc.).
Ancestral Weapon (Su): A samurai begins the game with a masterwork exotic melee weapon appropriate to his homeland/culture (see Weapon and Armor Proficiency); this item does not count against his starting wealth.
As a samurai acquires treasure through adventuring, he has the option of awakening the supernatural abilities latent in the weapon. At any time, a samurai may retreat to a temple or shrine and spend time in prayer in order to awaken the ancestral spirits in his ancestral weapon. This requires a sacrifice of valuable items worth the amount shown on Table 2: Ancestral Weapon.
This sacrifice does not have to be gold—the character can sacrifice magic items or other goods worth the required amount, rather than selling his goods (at half value) to pay for the sacrifice. The samurai must meet the minimum character level (including any prestige class levels) shown on the table, and he must spend one day per 500 gp sacrificed in the shrine or temple. During this time, he must spend at least 8 hours each day kneeling before his ancestors and his weapon. Many samurai request the assistance of a shugenja in this process, but a shugenja is not required .
The values shown on Table 2 are the total value of sacrifice required to bring a single weapon to the listed weapon bonus. If a samurai already has a +3 katana, he can raise it to a +4 katana by sacrificing 7,000 gp and spending two weeks in prayer. If the same samurai wanted to bring his masterwork wakizashi to a +1 wakizashi, he would have to sacrifice 1,000 gp. Before a samurai's ancestral sword becomes a +1 weapon, it is an ordinary masterwork weapon in every way. Its latent supernatural powers do not cause it to be considered a magic weapon until those powers are awakened.
A samurai who loses his ancestral weapon is dishonored until he can recover it. He cannot enhance any other weapon in this way.
TABLE 2: ANCESTRAL WEAPON
Class Level Total Bonus Total Sacrifice Time Required
4th +1 1,000 gp 2 days
7th +2 4,000 gp 8 days
9th +3 9,000 gp 18 days
11th +4 16,000 gp 1 month
13th +5 25,000 gp 1.5 months
14th +6* 36,000 gp 2 months
15th +7 49,000 gp 3 months
16th +8 64,000 gp 4 months
17th +9 81,000 gp 5 months
18th +10 100,000 gp 6 months
* A weapon can't actually have a bonus higher than +5. Use these lines to determine price when special abilities are added in. Example: A samurai who has a +4 katana can transform it into a +4 thundering katana with a sacrifice of 40,000 gp, since thundering is a special ability equivalent to a +2 bonus.
Bonus Feats: A samurai gains Mounted Combat as a bonus feat at 1st level. He gains the following additional bonus feats at the levels indicated: 2nd—Quick Draw; 4th—Weapon Focus; 6th—Dazzling Display; 8th—Greater Weapon Focus; 10th—Stunning Defense; 12th—Deadly Stroke. Bonus feats that apply to a single weapon type apply to the samurai’s ancestral weapon.
Quick Draw: A samurai gains Quick Draw as a bonus feat at 2nd level.
Iaijutsu Strike (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, whenever a samurai uses the Quick Draw feat with his ancestral weapon when initiating combat, the samurai gains a +1d6 bonus on damage for as long as his opponents remain flat-footed. Bonus damage increases by +1d6 per 2 levels thereafter, as shown in the Table.
If the samurai has no distractions, he can also make a single attack against an object as a standard action and apply half the Iaijutsu Strike damage (in addition to normal weapon damage) against that object.
Starting at 6th level, the samurai may apply his Iaijutsu Strike damage against demoralized, shaken, cowering, or panicked opponents. If such opponents are also flat-footed, the bonus dice do not stack.
Should the samurai score a critical hit with an iaijutsu strike, this extra damage is not multiplied. Any creature that is immune to sneak attacks is not vulnerable to an iaijutsu strike. A samurai cannot execute an iaijutsi strike against the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.
Weapon Focus: A samurai gains Weapon Focus with his ancestral weapon as a bonus feat at 4th level.
Dazzling Display: A samurai gains Dazzling Display with his ancestral weapon as a bonus feat at 6th level.
Greater Weapon Focus: A samurai gains Greater Weapon Focus with his ancestral weapon as a bonus feat at 8th level.
Staredown (Ex): Starting at 14th level, the samurai can demoralize opponents within 30 ft. as a move action, rather than a full-round action.
Cut Magic (Su): Starting at 16th level, a samurai may use his ancestral weapon to parry magic targeted at him. When the samurai is targeted by a spell or supernatural ability, he may take an attack of opportunity against the targeted effect. If he can make an attack roll against an AC equal to the spell or effect's DC with this attack, the effect does not affect him.
The samurai may also attack ongoing spell effects by attacking the square they are in (for area of effect effects) or the object or person (for targeted effects, which does damage as normal to the object or person). This attack is handled like the samurai's parry magic ability, but it only dispels a 10-ft. by 10-ft. section of an area of effect spell or spell-like ability.
Wraithstrike (Su): Starting at 18th level, the samurai ignores AC bonuses from armor and natural armor when attacking with his ancestral weapon. When attacking objects with his ancestral weapon, he ignores object hardness. He may attack incorporeal creatures with his ancestral weapon without incurring the normal 50% miss chance.
Frightful Presence (Ex): When you charge or draw your ancestral weapon, opponents within 30 ft. must succeed on a Will save (DC 20 + your Charisma modifier) or become panicked for 4d6 rounds (if they have half your Hit Dice or less) or shaken for 4d6 rounds (if more than half your Hit Dice).
Thanks, Kirth I like that - if I use it, I'll give you credit!
Regarding Yakuza, sure I'll basically use Rogues with an emphasis towards martial arts weapons when feats are weapon related, but for some oriental exotic flavor, and since a part of Yakuza ritual involves members receiving tattoos that eventually cover their bodies (not hands, feet, head or neck) how about the enhancements of the Tattoo Monk from the Complete Warriors Handbook or something similiar. Earn a Tattoo every 4 levels, up to 5 total at 20th level.
I don't have d20 Rokugan, so I can't compare what I want for Hatamoto vs. Courtier, nor Ninja for my needs. Any general ideas or variants I can base those on (without having to purchase d20 Rokugan, just to find out!)
GP
Personally, I would reserve Tattoo Monk for the Yakuza explicitly. That way they have their "own" PRC, and you don't have to do any legwork making up one.
As for martial arts, I understand your desire, but I don't know how well it will work to try and implement in the abstraction of D&D combat. It worked in Rifts, but that was because Rifts combat was much more simulationist (and tedious to adjucate).
It boils down to this question: what are martial arts to you? If they are diverse schools that can have a fair degree of leeway within them, then you could cluster certain feats together to represent a certain "school". Power Attack, Iron Will, Great Fortitude could be feats from Karate. Lightning Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip for Judo.
If you see martial arts having less leeway, you could make specific feat "chains" for them. I beleive Unearthed Arcana had some of this, as did a Class Acts article in Dragon.
If you see the simple progression of base attack being mastery of a martial art, then feats could represent the special moves learned by a practitioner. This is the simplest way, and can diffuse a lot of out-of game arguments, because you aren't going into specifics.
I like the Feat Clusters for the various martial arts!
Another one for Judo, might be Mongoose Publishing's Conan RPG has a Throw Opponent feat, make a Grapple attempt, if opponent fails their grapple attempt, you can throw your opponent in a prone position into the next square to either side of you, except you don't get an attack of opportunity because they are prone.
Might look at a few more clusters for other forms of martial arts, including aikido (pressure point and throwing arts) perhaps some improved pins type feats.
More thinking to do - thanks for the tips!
GP
Here is the variant Samurai I developed:
Snip
My only problem with that samurai, is that it is too specific of a fighting style. To use Rokugan terminology, all you can do is create a crane clan swordperson. The OA samurai at least gives a little variety.
My only problem with that samurai, is that it is too specific of a fighting style. To use Rokugan terminology, all you can do is create a crane clan swordperson. The OA samurai at least gives a little variety.
I agree with you to a large extent in terms of flexibility -- although the class I wrote works well for a mounted charger as well (spur mount and draw blade; cut down demoralized targets). But, really, the OA samurai is pretty much geared towards TWF -- and he does that worse than a fighter, and much worse than a rogue.
One thought regarding samurai however, the original iteration of a samurai in late 12th century Japan was that he was a master archer first, then a swordsman.
The idea of the daisho or twin swords (katana and wakizashi) was not intrinsically tied to the samurai until the Tokugawa period with is 1600 to 1868.
I'd like a version of a samurai with both daikyu long bow and sword skills, which of course lessens the cool Iaijutsu capability, by requiring a wider combat base as melee and missle weapon.
Perhaps I'd have up to three variant samurai classes based on clan/style:
1. Iaijutsu Master Samurai (as above, and as a Crane Clan swordsman)
2. Daisho Master Samurai (2 weapons specialization skills, Dragon clan)
3. Daikyu and Sword Samurai (single weapon and long bow specializations)
GP
PS: not a fan of Rokugan myself... L5R nice system, but the map and world sucks and the over emphasis of samurai class over other lesser castes, takes away from a Japanese system, too much clan politics for me. I see both L5R and Rokugan as a political game, not fantasy RPG so much.
My only problem with that samurai, is that it is too specific of a fighting style. To use Rokugan terminology, all you can do is create a crane clan swordperson. The OA samurai at least gives a little variety.I agree with you to a large extent in terms of flexibility -- although the class I wrote works well for a mounted charger as well (spur mount and draw blade; cut down demoralized targets). But, really, the OA samurai is pretty much geared towards TWF -- and he does that worse than a fighter, and much worse than a rogue.
No, the Complete Warrior Samurai is geared towards TWF, the OA Samurai allows you to pick a style to mimic the clans of Rokugan(and get sweet feats for it if you use the Rokugan book) through bonus feats at a bit slower of a rate than the fighter, but making up for it with more skill points and good will and fort saves. The CW samurai is not an update of the OA samurai.
edit: I am not a huge fan of Rokugan myself, but OA Samurai with technique feats add some nice variety. It really allows for different character types.
In the setting I'm designing the Caste system is much more obvious, and unless someone is of the samurai caste, there will be another type of fighter for those of the commoner caste called an Ashigaru.
An ashigaru is a farmer or fisherman who was conscripted by his local lord to be the foot soldiers of an army with samurai officers, he is given training in the use of the Naginata spear, unit tactics and skirmishing training. After the war is over, some Ashigaru return to life as farmers and fisherman, though others work as town guards, join or form fighting schools, form illegal militias, some become monks, while others become outlaws.
An ashigaru should be more like a fighter yet denied certain skillsets and weapons due to caste limitations. They aren't allowed training in mounted combat, use of swords (especially the katana and wakizashi) or daikyu long bow (all the latter are samurai weapons). Like most of the other classes, they would have some training in martial arts. They also lack any courtly skills of the samurai or noble castes.
Some ashigaru can be promoted to a lesser samurai for deeds or acts of loyalty to one's lord. If young enough he can receive proper samurai training, otherwise those privileges are for his children.
GP
PS: as a side note, my setting is kind of "Ravenloftian", PC death cannot be undone, the system is built for reincarnation and movement between castes based on "karma points" acquired in one's previous life, with enough positive points move you up a caste, negative points down. It is based on the Buddhist Wheel of Life - endless reincarnation cycle. The goal of PCs are to escape this and their are ways to do it, but are kept hidden by the Imperial Court. (The Imperial Court almost completely consists of undead lords.) I call the setting, Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story campaign.
PS: not a fan of Rokugan myself... L5R nice system, but the map and world sucks
So you're more into the 4e kind of advertising: "What came before sucks so buy mine, it's better?"
I think Rokugan rocks. Seems I won't need your game.
I see both L5R and Rokugan as a political game, not fantasy RPG so much.
So RPG must equal "gory hack and slash"? Political roleplaying can be great fun if done right. I think L5R does that.
PS: not a fan of Rokugan myself... L5R nice system, but the map and world sucksSo you're more into the 4e kind of advertising: "What came before sucks so buy mine, it's better?"
I think Rokugan rocks. Seems I won't need your game.
I kind of agree with "Game-Printer" on this.
The combining of Japan, Korea, and China that makes up Rokugan doesn't quite work for me either.
Those are very distinct cultures (not to mention Vietamise, Burmese, Mongol, Thai, etc) and should not be (and don't quite work when) kind of jammed together.
On the topic of "Martial Arts" and Pathfinder - I would suggest you outline specific uses of certain combat manuevers, possibly with minor modifiers, to mimic things like "Throw opponent" (which could be a bull rush, or a trip, or even both perhaps). In designing those I wouldn't worry too much about how they would interact with a regular pathfinder game. In making a "Martial Arts Game" you're resetting the default of what Combat Manuevers can do.
Also you can design entirely new combat manuevers, with appropriate "Improved ___" feats (and maybe "Greater ___"). Just don't make too many new ones that really could fall under the normal ones - you probably want people to be able to use multiples of these.
Sounds cool, enjoy!
Regarding my setting, in some ways I am developing something different than OA or Rokugan. However, I am not making something better than before, rather I am making something different and one that I am more comfortable with. Not that it means anything, but I'm half Japanese, and have a bit more cultural understanding and appreciation than "what came before" IMO.
Regarding L5R, I do like the system. I thought they handled aspects of that which is Japanese better than Oriental Adventures. But as mentioned above, its the whole Rokugan is China, Korea and Japan with a distinctly Japanese culture imposed on the land-locked nature of Rokugan, which I feel Rokugan was a misstep in being.
I think key to being Japanese, is having limited resources and being an island nation - which Rokugan is not.
The Rokugan storyline is great. But at this date, its a struggle between the clans at choosing the next emperor. In that sense it has deciminated into a "political game".
There's too much "I'm a Crane, you're a Lion" sounds too much like "I'm a Bear's Fan, and you're a Jets fan" and less on what is Japanese.
Additionally in Rokugan (at least in L5R) Shukenja and Samurai are treated as equal castes, which they weren't in Japanese history. Plus, all the other castes and occupations (ninja, yakuza, sohei) kind of disappear in the background from Rokugan's Samurai/Shukenja as the drivers of the storyline.
These are the reasons I don't care for Rokugan - understand, some things they got right, but not enough for my needs.
While I am trying to incorporate the whole of Japanese society rather than a slice, I am not trying to create the new default Japanese settting. Rather I'm trying to build a "Ravenloftian" dark setting that incorporates the rich "Japanese Ghost Story" tradition that seems lacking in previous settings.
I am making something dark and different, not necessarily better than OA or Rokugan - just better to me.
Hopefully the mechanics of my setting isn't so unique that a gaming group playing Pathfinder couldn't use my system with a non-Ravenloft like setting, but Rokugan or anything else they utilize. I want it to be basically Pathfinder RPG, not something completely new. Just some color as I apply them in my setting.
Finally if it means to create a "Greater Trip" or "Greater Bull Rush" instead of "Throw Opponent" that's fine, I just need to find the right combination of feats that work for my system, but doesn't involving reinventing the Wheel.
GP
PS: politics is still part of the game, and I won't divorce my system from it, I am just not wrapping my world into it as much as Rokugan did.
PPS: I am buiding the setting with the purpose to be used for Pathfinder, but I don't own the intellectual property of Rokugan or OA, so I can't just copy their rules and call it mine. I have to deviate just enough to be original, yet still comfortable with "what came before" and not so much that I get sued for it. I don't want to have to buy the rights of AEG's Rokugan to develop my setting, especially since I don't agree with everything regarding Rokugan.
No, the Complete Warrior Samurai is geared towards TWF, the OA Samurai allows you to pick a style to mimic the clans of Rokugan(and get sweet feats for it if you use the Rokugan book) through bonus feats at a bit slower of a rate than the fighter, but making up for it with more skill points and good will and fort saves. The CW samurai is not an update of the OA samurai.
Kalis, right you are -- brain fart on my part -- thanks for the correction.
If they are diverse schools that can have a fair degree of leeway within them, then you could cluster certain feats together to represent a certain "school". Power Attack, Iron Will, Great Fortitude could be feats from Karate. Lightning Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip for Judo.
OA did this, with a bonus ability for having all of the feats for a specific school. Kinda like buy 4, get the fifth feat free.
Question regarding Oriental Adventures, as I've been reviewing a friend of mine's copy of the book. By and large it works as a rule system for much of Empire of Kaidan campaign setting, that I am building an adventure arc for it.
I am planning to publish the setting with a PFRPG compatible licensee.
Basically I like OA and as I said, it works for my system. However there some discrepancies as I am not using Rokugan or references to Rokugan in that manual. Still it is made to work in other settings. However, it is clearly a WotC owned product, not something likely to be republished in PF format due to ownership.
The differences I have for it is primarily cosmetic, not really affecting the rules set so much. Shugenja are called Yamabushi in my setting, they are not members of the samurai class, or even recognized by most noble houses - unlike they are in Rokugan, for example. However, skills, spells and feats are pretty much right on.
So if I plan to create a Path in an oriental setting that is intended for publication, I will essentially have to rewrite an oriental rules set similar to OA, but distinct enough so that it isn't WotC's IP.
I've got no problems emulating the Martial Arts combat rules of OA for example, but rather than call them hard, hard/soft or soft, I'd call them by their Japanese names: karate, aikido, juijutsu, and judo. Many of the "odd feats" I imagined I needed actually exist in OA 3e rules.
Am I being realistic in thinking I will have to create my own different version and different named rule set for my proposed setting? I am sure I can make it work, but it looks like lots of work indeed.
I don't want to disinfranchise the Rokugan or OA crowd, but to utilize an oriental setting with appropriate rules, skills, classes, feats and spells for Pathfinder is going to require its own rule set, so it can move forward as a Pathfinder compatible published product.
That is what I'll have to do, right?
GP
I think Rokugan rocks. Seems I won't need your game.
So RPG must equal "gory hack and slash"? Political roleplaying can be great fun if done right. I think L5R does that.
I see both L5R and Rokugan as a political game, not fantasy RPG so much.
Something new I came to realize. I think Rokugan - the system, the political organization, the emphasis on honor, who you know, the alliances you build with other houses, schools and individuals - rocks. Again my problem with Rokugan is geography, not the culture which is great.
[Its "political" only in the last time I looked at Rokugan current events it was the endless discussion on which house was going to put one of their members on the Imperial throne. While the results for a given house is great honor and perhaps other kudos in the setting. The "big conflict" was how to get my house member onto the throne - which I find not a very fun storyline to work with. Still good for RP, but only one flavor. Things might be updated and better now, though, I haven't checked.]
The problem I have is as a game designer. In order for me to create an adventure arc or campaign for Pathfinder, I need to refer to OGL compatible rules sets. I can't make references to d20 Rokugan or Oriental Adventures because they are not OGL. Not to say that those books aren't 3.5 compatible, so a rules addendum for those systems may be also necessary, I can't say see the Samurai rules for House Lion in Oriental Adventures, when refering to rule specifications for a given encounter. Those are either d20 or WotC IP, and not Open Content.
In order to carry the Oriental settings concept into the Pathfinder future, a new set of rules for oriental campaigns specifically OGL or Pathfinder compatible will be necessary - and it can't look too much like other's IP, it must be coherent and useable, but it can't look like Rokugan or OA. Therein lies the dilema.
If my setting doesn't work for you, because its counter to Rokugani ideas, Kae Yoss, that's certainly your right. But if you play an oriental setting using Pathfinder and OA or d20 Rokugan, then you're not really playing a true Pathdinder game, but a hybrid one.
I need to create a rules set that is distinctly for Pathfinder, that is my goal.
So hopefully, once my game rules set, campaign arc and setting is fully developed maybe you'll at least look at it, before you make any harsh decisions.
GP