Chief Technical Officer
|
We've just announced a major revision to the product formerly known as Pathfinder Companion: Council of Thieves Player's Guide—and, indeed, to the concept of Adventure Path Player's Guides as a whole.
When we introduced the Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide, it really needed to do two things: introduce players to what would become the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, and prepare them for the Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path. The first part has become less necessary as we proceed into our second, third, and fourth APs, and bigger and better sources of information (like the Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer and Campaign Setting books) have become available.
To that end, beginning with the Council of Thieves Adventure Path, the concept of the Player's Guide is taking a new direction. Instead of a guide aimed solely at players of the new AP, we're instead going to release Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils. This book will introduce players to Cheliax, the launching point for the Council of Thieves AP, and—just like the old Player's Guides—will provide them the background they need, as well as interesting new options for their characters, but we'll do it in a way that's more useful to players and GMs who are interested in Cheliax but aren't planning on playing the AP.
Tell us what you think!
Bravo,
Sounds like a really good idea.
Sounds fine to me.
I noticed there is also a price increase for the Companions, but as this seems to be happening before this AP, I assume the two are unrelated.
What will be the relationship between what was formerly the Player's Guide and the AP subscription? Any changes there?
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
Sounds fine to me.
I noticed there is also a price increase for the Companions, but as this seems to be happening before this AP, I assume the two are unrelated.
Yep... that's just a result of higher costs. It's still a 32-page full-color book as before.
What will be the relationship between what was formerly the Player's Guide and the AP subscription? Any changes there?
We switched the Player's Guide content from the 16-page Player's Guide to the 32-page Pathfinder Companion when we introduced the Companion alongside Second Darkness, and the Pathfinder Companion has its own subscription. This doesn't change that.
Of course, with Osirion, Land of Pharaohs already available, and Taldor, Echoes of Glory, Qadira, Gateway to the East, and Andoran, Spirit of Liberty aready announced, Cheliax, Empire of Devils nicely fills the vacant player sourcebook slot for the fifth Pathfinder Society faction, which I guess is no coincidence. :)
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
So, what would happen if you release an AP on a location already covered by a Pathfinder Compation ? Is it the end of Campaing Traits ?
I don't think we have to worry about that for a while, as the next couple of APs are probably starting in new territory. And by time we revisit a location, perhaps things will have changed enough locally to merit covering it again.
|
Creative Director
|
Tell us what you think!I like it. Will the format, though, separate the player and GM info?
We'll still be aiming to include information that's mostly for players in the Companions. If we do something that' just GM info, it'll generally be showing up in a Pathfinder article or in a Pathfinder Chronicles product. If we DO put GM info into a Companion, we'll let readers know that Spoilers Lie Ahead.
To that end, beginning with the Council of Thieves Adventure Path, the concept of the Player's Guide is taking a new direction. Instead of a guide aimed solely at players of the new AP, we're instead going to release Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils. This book will introduce players to Cheliax, the launching point for the Council of Thieves AP, and—just like the old Player's Guides—will provide them the background they need, as well as interesting new options for their characters, but we'll do it in a way that's more useful to players and GMs who are interested in Cheliax but aren't planning on playing the AP.
Tell us what you think!
I probably fall into a minority here, but I use a homebrew world rather than Golarian. So, a guide to Cheliax is less useful to me than a guide dedicated to the AP. The traits, feats, new equipment and whathaveyou are certainly worth having but, I don't see buying a guide for those elements plus 16 extra pages of material that has no bearing on the campaign I'll be running.
To put things into a context, the 16 page guides are a good tool for helping me translate the APs to my world of choice. They give me an idea of the geography and a broad sweep of the general character of the setting. I get the right amount of information I need at a reasonable price.
While I understand the need to support Golarian and cater to those customers hungry for more information about that world, I also have to consider the value I'm receiving on the money I spend. Which makes it highly unlikely that I would purchase guides in the format you describe...
|
Creative Director
|
So, what would happen if you release an AP on a location already covered by a Pathfinder Compation ? Is it the end of Campaing Traits ?
At this point, my plan is to create a short (4 to 6 page) and free PDF that folks can download at the start of each Adventure Path. This PDF will include all of the information about what to keep in mind when picking your race and class for the upcoming campaign, and will also contain that Adventure Path's campaign traits
|
So, what would happen if you release an AP on a location already covered by a Pathfinder Compation ? Is it the end of Campaing Traits ?At this point, my plan is to create a short (4 to 6 page) and free PDF that folks can download at the start of each Adventure Path. This PDF will include all of the information about what to keep in mind when picking your race and class for the upcoming campaign, and will also contain that Adventure Path's campaign traits
Nice.
|
Tell us what you think!
Slick, Vic!
Cover art looks great, the concept and use of the book is great, and I'm thrilled that the book will have much more broad use than just specific that AP - since I'm way behind the APs at this point, but info on Cheliax may help me run previous APs - such as the Age of Worms I just started in neighboring Varisia.
Good job Paizo - I look forward to continuing that subscription as well.
Robert
|
Just as long as there's still a focus on the Adventure Path, and as long as I can call it a 'Players Guide', in some sense. I'm down with that. By all means expand to include more general information for the region that the AP is focused on, but the information on the AP itself is vital, in my view. Keep that coming!
|
S
e
o
n
i
Just as long as there's still a focus on the Adventure Path, and as long as I can call it a 'Players Guide', in some sense. I'm down with that. By all means expand to include more general information for the region that the AP is focused on, but the information on the AP itself is vital, in my view. Keep that coming!
I agree with my dear Uzzy (the queens avatar is pure awesome by the way).
my info is always good vic.
This is the sexy, Vic.
Sweet, I like :)
|
|
I think this is ok.
Here is what I am looking for:
1) A player's guide to help players & GM get into the flavor and concept of the particular AP, to include skills, feats, traits, equipment, PrC's, other character options, etc that would be useful for the AP.
2) Some teasers to set up the AP, with the goal of getting folks "in the mood" of the AP
3) A mini gazetteer of the area (to include general environmental conditions as appropriate) to provide a point of reference
4) Important groups, societies, NPC's that the characters might know about.
5) Reference materials that would be of interest
6) Any other interesting material that is applicable
My desire would be that this would be a one stop product to get the characters going in the right direction with regards to character creation and jump starting the adventure.
Based on what I read, it sounds like this is the general direction that you guys are trying to move in.
If we do something that' just GM info, it'll generally be showing up in a Pathfinder article or in a Pathfinder Chronicles product. If we DO put GM info into a Companion, we'll let readers know that Spoilers Lie Ahead.
The Osirion, Land of the Pharoahs companion was riddled with GM secrets. Many of the entries for areas blew the big reveal, making it a resource I will not let the players use in total. I intend to print and redact it. I think you need to be very clear about what is for the players and what is for the GM. Don't mix and match.
|
Creative Director
|
The free 4–6 page Player's Guide PDF would:
1) A player's guide to help players & GM get into the flavor and concept of the particular AP, to include skills, feats, traits, equipment, PrC's, other character options, etc that would be useful for the AP.
...provide this...
2) Some teasers to set up the AP, with the goal of getting folks "in the mood" of the AP
...and provide this...
3) A mini gazetteer of the area (to include general environmental conditions as appropriate) to provide a point of reference
...but probably would not provide this. That said, this information already exists in the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting. And THAT said, what would be provided to fufill points 1 and 2 above would, in theory, give prospective players an idea of what kind of general environmental conditions and societies they'll be facing...
4) Important groups, societies, NPC's that the characters might know about.
...this would be treated as point 3 above...
5) Reference materials that would be of interest
...and we can do this too...
6) Any other interesting material that is applicable
...a nice catch-all.
Plus campaign traits.
|
Creative Director
|
If we do something that' just GM info, it'll generally be showing up in a Pathfinder article or in a Pathfinder Chronicles product. If we DO put GM info into a Companion, we'll let readers know that Spoilers Lie Ahead.The Osirion, Land of the Pharoahs companion was riddled with GM secrets. Many of the entries for areas blew the big reveal, making it a resource I will not let the players use in total. I intend to print and redact it. I think you need to be very clear about what is for the players and what is for the GM. Don't mix and match.
That book was also one that we were still working things out with... as evidenced by its lack of Character Traits.
I think you need to be very clear about what is for the players and what is for the GM. Don't mix and match.
Agreed.
EDIT: Somehow missed Jacobs posts -- good!
So, what would happen if you release an AP on a location already covered by a Pathfinder Compation ? Is it the end of Campaing Traits ?At this point, my plan is to create a short (4 to 6 page) and free PDF that folks can download at the start of each Adventure Path. This PDF will include all of the information about what to keep in mind when picking your race and class for the upcoming campaign, and will also contain that Adventure Path's campaign traits
That answers most of my biggest concerns.
I will say though that the original Rise of the Runelords player's guide is what *really* got me going on Pathfinder in the first place. The loss of those handouts (starting with Second Darkness and further now) is a distinct loss to me.
I do think you have a good compromise here though - as the 1/3 of PF Companions being reserved for player's guides ended up being a bit silly.
the original Rise of the Runelords player's guide is what *really* got me going on Pathfinder in the first place.
I hear ya, Majuba. After Wizards announced 4e and the end of new supporting materials loomed, I started looking around more seriously to identify resources for continuing to play with the same system, and so I looked more closely into what was on the Paizo website. I downloaded the two player's guides, and that is what convinced me not merely that Paizo was a great resource for continuing to play and run the games I'd been participating in, but that I wanted to be able to run the adventures and the world that they were creating. At that point I had neither any of the old magazines nor any of the current products--those two guides were what hooked me.
So, what would happen if you release an AP on a location already covered by a Pathfinder Compation ? Is it the end of Campaing Traits ?At this point, my plan is to create a short (4 to 6 page) and free PDF that folks can download at the start of each Adventure Path. This PDF will include all of the information about what to keep in mind when picking your race and class for the upcoming campaign, and will also contain that Adventure Path's campaign traits
This is a Happy Medium. Players and the GM can nab this at their liesure when preparing to start up the AP without hamstringing themselves by having to share a single purchased copy at the $20 price tag range that has previously contained that information.
I hope at the least the 4-6 page PDF begins with Council of Thieves - getting one for Legacy of Fire does not sound like it will happen...
I hope at the least the 4-6 page PDF begins with Council of Thieves - getting one for Legacy of Fire does not sound like it will happen...
Since weekly email subscribers already got the PDF of the Legacy of Fire Player's Guide, I think you're on to something there.
To that end, beginning with the Council of Thieves Adventure Path, the concept of the Player's Guide is taking a new direction. Instead of a guide aimed solely at players of the new AP, we're instead going to release Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils. This book will introduce players to Cheliax, the launching point for the Council of Thieves AP, and—just like the old Player's Guides—will provide them the background they need, as well as interesting new options for their characters, but we'll do it in a way that's more useful to players and GMs who are interested in Cheliax but aren't planning on playing the AP.
Tell us what you think!
This is a terrible idea. This just sounds like a Chronicles supplement with questionable ties to the AP. Why isn't it a Chronicles book? Further, as noted above, it's yet another pain-in-the-youknowwhere and yet another barrier for those who put the APs in different campaign settings. Is this really what Paizo wants? Hmmmm...
Really - if you want to release a Chronicles supplement, then release a Chronicles supplement. If you want to release a Companion, release a Companion. This just adds further confusion as to what the heck these "Companion" supplements are vs. "Chronicles" supplements. (And it waters down the APs just a little more, after the already-seen watering down with workload as the [legitimate, of course, but still problem-causing] given excuse.) Bleh.
The bonus for me, I guess, is I can strike yet another Paizo purchase off my list and save some money.
Maybe if I know what "more useful to players and GMs who are interested in Cheliax but aren't planning on playing the AP" means, I can judge better. But it sure doesn't sound promising. I want a "Players Guide [to the next AP]" - is it, or isn't it, this book? And if it still is, how and why does it differ?
We've just announced a major revision to the product formerly known as Pathfinder Companion: Council of Thieves Player's Guide—and, indeed, to the concept of Adventure Path Player's Guides as a whole.
When we introduced the Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide, it really needed to do two things: introduce players to what would become the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, and prepare them for the Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path. The first part has become less necessary as we proceed into our second, third, and fourth APs, and bigger and better sources of information (like the Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer and Campaign Setting books) have become available.
To that end, beginning with the Council of Thieves Adventure Path, the concept of the Player's Guide is taking a new direction. Instead of a guide aimed solely at players of the new AP, we're instead going to release Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils. This book will introduce players to Cheliax, the launching point for the Council of Thieves AP, and—just like the old Player's Guides—will provide them the background they need, as well as interesting new options for their characters, but we'll do it in a way that's more useful to players and GMs who are interested in Cheliax but aren't planning on playing the AP.
Tell us what you think!
Well, that'll get me to restart my Companion Subscription.
I'll withold judgment until I can actually see the companion, but I would prefer that the companions associated with APs be specifically geared towards players of that AP. For example, while the Varisian section in the PFCS mentions Riddleport, you certainly do not get the detail that you find in the SD player companion.
Also, I really do not want to have to sift through the material to remove the GM-only info.
I'm excited about the product either way, though.
This is a terrible idea. This just sounds like a Chronicles supplement with questionable ties to the AP. Why isn't it a Chronicles book? Further, as noted above, it's yet another pain-in-the-youknowwhere and yet another barrier for those who put the APs in different campaign settings.
I'm afraid I don't see how a separate, optional product is any sort of barrier to you running an AP in a world other than Golarion. Its existence doesn't make it any more difficult for you to set an AP in a different world.
I want a "Players Guide [to the next AP]" - is it, or isn't it, this book? And if it still is, how and why does it differ?
Doesn't James' description of the free 4-6 page PDF cover that sort of info?
|
|
Maybe if I know what "more useful to players and GMs who are interested in Cheliax but aren't planning on playing the AP" means, I can judge better.
Example: I want to throw my players in the middle of Cheliax, but I don't want to play the AP.
Note: That's just an example, and I have every intention of playing the AP.
|
I think the short pdf for AP's is a great idea. It's worked well with past AP's.
As far as Companion products, a definite player centric focus would be great. A book that gives background ideas, new feats, prestige classes, organizations, etc. centered around a particular region or race/class is very valuable.
I guess what I'm looking for from the line is something I can hand to a new player if he or she is interested in a particular background. "Oh, you want to play an elf? Here, take a look at this book." Elves of Golarian was GREAT for this. Osirian, Land of Pharaohs - not so much. Don't get me wrong, the book was a good read, it just felt more like an abbreviated Chronicles product. It really wasn't a hand-to-a-player-so-they-can-make-a-character-from-Osirian type book.
I'm looking forward to see how the Companion line develops.
Is it inappropriate to ask for a class centric book? A druid/ranger book with animal companion options for different regions? A sorcerer book with world specific bloodlines (post PRPG)? A book on martial training schools and options? The possibilities are pretty extensive.
Thanks for reading.
Basickly, what I want is something that's inexpensive that I can tell my players to pick up (if I ever get to run a game) that tells them everything about the region. I cancelled my subscription after the SD campanion because I don't like published adventures. I can count on 1 hand all the published adventures I ever read (all of which are from Paizo). So something that helps players though an AP isn't much help to me. But something that details a region that allows me to make my own AP would be a big help.
I'm afraid I don't see how a separate, optional product is any sort of barrier to you running an AP in a world other than Golarion. Its existence doesn't make it any more difficult for you to set an AP in a different world.
*blinks* Really? You don't? Oh well... my post was abundantly clear, in any case. The previous Player's Guides had focused information that tied directly to the AP, and thus if the AP was adapted to another setting, the adapted Player's Guide was pretty much done right along with it. And, of course, those PGs had information to help run that specific AP.
Not necessarily so with this, if the Player's Guide is now some sort of Chronicles-like accessory that is more divorced from the specific AP. (In fact, from the title, it doesn't sound like a PG at all.) Less info specific to that AP = a little bit more of a barrier. But hey - I was just answering the OP's question. Should I just have cheered with the... rest... instead?
I look forward to seeing considerable more detail and will be hopefully proven wrong. (But don't waste your time - or mine - bothering to tell me I'm wrong right now, Sean, or that I should like something else. Detailed product info will cover that little issue.)
(And, to no surprise, I see my question as to what differentiates this from a Chronicles product wasn't answered. Heh.)
Doesn't James' description of the free 4-6 page PDF cover that sort of info?
Beats me. I haven't seen this mythological "free 4-6 page PDF". But it sure doesn't sound like the 32 pages of the Second Darkness PG, nor even the 16 pages of the RotRL or CotCT PGs... So, the answer is "Who knows. Maybe?".
*blinks* Really? You don't? Oh well... my post was abundantly clear, in any case. The previous Player's Guides had focused information that tied directly to the AP, and thus if the AP was adapted to another setting, the adapted Player's Guide was pretty much done right along with it. And, of course, those PGs had information to help run that specific AP.
The lack of a product perfectly suited to your specific needs is not a "barrier" to you running the AP in another world. Lack of facilitation is not the same as the creation of an obstacle.
But I think you're wanting to argue, and I am not, so I'll just let this go for now. :)
I hope at the least the 4-6 page PDF begins with Council of Thieves - getting one for Legacy of Fire does not sound like it will happen...Since weekly email subscribers already got the PDF of the Legacy of Fire Player's Guide, I think you're on to something there.
Ummm ... yep, that's me ... as sharp as a bag of hammers.
I'm afraid I don't see how a separate, optional product is any sort of barrier to you running an AP in a world other than Golarion. Its existence doesn't make it any more difficult for you to set an AP in a different world.*blinks* Really? You don't? Oh well... my post was abundantly clear, in any case. The previous Player's Guides had focused information that tied directly to the AP, and thus if the AP was adapted to another setting, the adapted Player's Guide was pretty much done right along with it. And, of course, those PGs had information to help run that specific AP.
Not necessarily so with this, if the Player's Guide is now some sort of Chronicles-like accessory that is more divorced from the specific AP. (In fact, from the title, it doesn't sound like a PG at all.) Less info specific to that AP = a little bit more of a barrier. But hey - I was just answering the OP's question. Should I just have cheered with the... rest... instead?
I look forward to seeing considerable more detail and will be hopefully proven wrong. (But don't waste your time - or mine - bothering to tell me I'm wrong right now, Sean, or that I should like something else. Detailed product info will cover that little issue.)
(And, to no surprise, I see my question as to what differentiates this from a Chronicles product wasn't answered. Heh.)
Doesn't James' description of the free 4-6 page PDF cover that sort of info?Beats me. I haven't seen this mythological "free 4-6 page PDF". But it sure doesn't sound like the 32 pages of the Second Darkness PG, nor even the 16 pages of the RotRL or CotCT PGs... So, the answer is "Who knows. Maybe?".
Arnwyn, correct me if I am wrong, but there seems to be a crossing of the streams going on.
The free PDF is the "players' guide to the Adventure Path", featuring player-only information to set up thier player characters and providing their campaign trait tying them into the AP in question.
Naturally you haven't seen the "mythological" free PDF - it hasn't been produced yet.
It is clear from what Vic, JJ and SKR have posted that the freebie is for the players of a given AP and a bone from Paizo to the rest of us especially in light of the current general economy most of their customer base is in.
The Chronicles and Companion products are clearly going to be more generally-applicable products rather than AP-specific throwaway books. (Throwaway once the AP is done, for all practical purposes.) This frees up a few pages from these product lines to hold stuff more worthy of inclusion (I hope).
*blinks* Really? You don't? Oh well... my post was abundantly clear, in any case.
Sigh. Clear to some perhaps. Not all of us have Decipher Ramblings memorized today.
;)Vic,
Since I am part of the... rest... I suppose I'll just cheer. Frankly, I think it sounds like a much-needed clarification of purpose for the product line.
|
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
|
This is a great idea. Not only does it allow more regional focused companions that can be cover areas in more depth than a player's guide, but the free PDF makes it easier for players to work with the crunch that's specifics to the AP even if they aren't big buyers. I know some of my players are big fans of the free PDFs I direct them to, but many of them don't have the time or money to buy lots of the supplemental material, and this way I don't have to lend my stuff out as much.
Naturally you haven't seen the "mythological" free PDF - it hasn't been produced yet.
There's a mythological free PDF being produced?! Will it include alternative cosmological myths!? More on the StarStone!?
|
Creative Director
|
So, would it be fair now to say that we have:
AP - Adventure set in Galorian
Companion - Info about playing a character in Galorian
Chronicles - Info for DMing in Galorianand short, free players guide - info about playing a character in an AP.
Correct. They're also usually separated by size (although we won't ALWAYS stick to these page counts).
AP = pre-made campaign set in Golarion. This is the 96 page product.
Companion = Booklet for players and GMs interested in Golarion. Usually has a fair amount of crunch. This is the 32 page product.
Chronicles = Booklet about Golarion itself, skewed toward the GM. Usually has a fair amount of flavor, with about 1/3 crunch or less. This is the 64 page product.
Modules = adventures set in Golarion. 32 pages
Player's Guides = short, free PDFs that players use to get ready for an AP. 4 to 6 pages
|
|
So, would it be fair now to say that we have:
AP - Adventure set in Galorian
Companion - Info about playing a character in Galorian
Chronicles - Info for DMing in Galorianand short, free players guide - info about playing a character in an AP.
Correct. They're also usually separated by size (although we won't ALWAYS stick to these page counts).
AP = pre-made campaign set in Golarion. This is the 96 page product.
Companion = Booklet for players and GMs interested in Golarion. Usually has a fair amount of crunch. This is the 32 page product.
Chronicles = Booklet about Golarion itself, skewed toward the GM. Usually has a fair amount of flavor, with about 1/3 crunch or less. This is the 64 page product.
Modules = adventures set in Golarion. 32 pages
Player's Guides = short, free PDFs that players use to get ready for an AP. 4 to 6 pages
Perfect! Now, back to your cage.. ;) lol