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I would love to have a group of Red Mantis Minis which we can use for our games. These thin red guys look extremely cool with their mantis mask.
Another suggestion: How about a line of prepainted plastik minis? Not everybody has the time and talent to paint. Would be great - and probably a good support for your roleplaying line.
I agree with the first one...
the second has been brought up many times, the issue is finding somewhere that can do this cheap enough for the numbers paizo will order. it's near - impossible.
Another suggestion: How about a line of prepainted plastik minis?
The last word about that was "we'd love to, but those don't work unless you can sell really many or get paid really much for every figure." Apparently, the fixed costs are a bastard.
Reaper is rather big in the minis business, and I think they're able to sell a lot more than Paizo could.
And painting minis isn't that hard. I'm hardly a pro, and my creations often look as good as the prepainted stuff - if you compare it to some of the crap wizards has sold, they're simply fabulous.
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For short runs, metal is actually the most cost effective. It's not the casting materials that are at issue, but the mold making. Metal and resin can be cast with silicon with very high detail, but injection molded plastic (AFAIK) takes a metal one. That's expensive. Eg. I have an old White Dwarf article where they said it cost about a million bucks to make the master molds for their falcon grav tank. For the kind of production run Paizo would be looking at, it's just not worth the expense. Toss in a factory paint job, and the costs go up again.
I like the metal minis they're doing. The company they've chosen is top notch too. Check out their Aegyptus line...the humans might be appropriate for the Legacy of Fire line. :)
As for other Pathfinder models I'd like to see - KOBOLDS! The Kobold king and his minions would be awesome. A mounted model on slurkback and different weapon options would be great too.
I would love to have a group of Red Mantis Minis which we can use for our games. These thin red guys look extremely cool with their mantis mask.
Yes Please! (And I'm not even running CotCT)
Anyway IMO pre-painted plastic minis are the future of minis. While now only a talented elite can have good painted minis, prepainted plastic would allow everyone to buy them for their games.
I don't think that only a talented elite can have good painted minis. It depends on your definition of good. Painting metal minis to the standards used by pre-painted plastic minis is not a lot of work.
If somebody wants to paint them up to showcase standards, like those minis shown at Paizo's online catalog, fine; but miniatures for wargames where always painted to lower standards than those. After all, wargame miniature painting is a medium to an end. Painting miniatures for roleplaying games is also usually done to much lower standards or you will hardly ever get a large enough collection of painted miniatures for your games.
And I would also like to get Red Mantis Assassin miniatures from Paizo. They would be very interesting both from the painting and from the playing points of view.
Add Hellknights to that list too—*grin*.
I also agree that the pre-painted plastic mini's are the future of the game.
I also understand that you have to produce a lot of them to make it profitable. How about teaming up with a company that already does this such as Reaper or Rackham. (The Reaper mini's are "okay", but for some reason I think they would look so much better to me if they were on a round base. The Rackham Confrontation/AT-43 figures look great, and would only need to have their base sizes reduced slightly for D&D play.)
It would be great to see Adventure Path mini sets released. (A box of the iconic adventurers, a box of notable npc's and a box or two of foes).
I also understand that you have to produce a lot of them to make it profitable. How about teaming up with a company that already does this such as Reaper or Rackham.
They still have to sell significant numbers.
I'm sure they have already thought about those guys, and that there are good reasons for the lack of plastic pathfinders powered by reaper.
For one, reaper uses figures from their metal lines for their plastic line, and there are no reaper PF figures. I guess that if they wanted to do it, it would have to be with Croc.
Add Hellknights to that list too—*grin*.
Use this as a stopgap measure
Thanks, it could do. I forgot about that miniature.
They still have to sell significant numbers.
I do believe that they would sell a lot. WotC have changed their whole marketing scheme based on this. They realized that far more people were buying the minis for Roleplaying, than those that were buying them for the miniatures game. This very clearly tells me there is demand for them. Even despite the fact that the last 3 sets look like they were painted by a pre-schooler -- they still sold very well.
Even though you stamp Pathfinder on the front of the box, all D&D players will want to buy these as well. Sure, to a Pathfinder buyer, they may be getting a Red Mantis Assassin, a Grey Maiden, an Acadamae Gradutate and a Hellknight -- but to all others they are getting a rogue, wizard and 2 fighters. Player Characters will always sell well. No matter how many different ways you pose a character, change out their race, weapons, armor, people will keep buying them. Another unique thing Pathfinder has is a fair variety of the human sub-races (nationalities). They could either make a "class pack" with 4 of the same or varied classes, each of a different nationality, or they could make nationality themed packs.
I have no doubt that these would sell ever bit as well as the D&D miniatures.
Packs: release all miniatures in packs of around 4. Certainly there will be at least 1 or 2 minis that people will want which they will be willing to buy the whole pack for. Retailers are reluctant to sell single minis as they don't want to see the same unpopular mini sitting on their shelves for the next 3 years.
Limited Sets: release the miniatures in limited sets. This creates more of a drive/urgency to purchase them while they are available. They also appeal more to the "collectors" which also makes up a signicant market share of the mini buyers.
Randomness & Rarity: I'm uncertain how well this element drives sales. I do know that the randomness factor pits frustration over not getting the mini you want, over the fun of "gambling" to see if you get what you do want. Retailers tend to prefer random packs as they usually sell better than non-random minis. I believe most gamers prefer to see what they are buying. (I gave up buying random sets a long time ago, and just bought full sets on eBay). Random sets, do also encourage many eBay shops to set up, which is a good thing for the miniatures lines because these retailers buy a LOT of minis... both for selling as singles and as sets.
Bases: Round (or other geometric shape) looks more playable and professional, and more sturdy for holding up the mini. People play D&D on a variety of surfaces... not all of them sturdy and with some heavily involved roleplayers banging their fists in the table or the like, they soon find themselves constantly righting toppled minis. (I wish Reaper would take note of this!)
Paint Job: Because of the margins involved, mini's can't be given a professional, paint job with many multiple colors with shades and highlights. Originally the WotC minis were a good balance of this. Each mini had several different colors, plus a wash, and occassionally with some unique detail painted. In general, if you are using less than 5 colors to paint a mini, it's not going to look good (in my opinion). The latest D&D minis tested this threshhold by using 3 colors on average to paint their minis, many without a wash coat. They looked poor and many people complained -- they have promised improved paint jobs on their next releases.
Scultps: Lastly, sculpts. There's no getting around a bad sculpt. Some of the early D&D minis succumbed to this but soon got better. Then came the debate of a handmade sculpt versus a computerized 3D scuplt. I think either method works well, although when some of your minis start looking like characters I would see on a Saturday morning cartoon, it's time to re-analyze the sculpt proofing process. (This became a problem with some of the computerized D&D sculpts).
This very clearly tells me there is demand for them. Even despite the fact that the last 3 sets look like they were painted by a pre-schooler -- they still sold very well.
I thought they didn't sell that well, because they looked like crap and cost more than those sets that didn't, and therefore they killed DDM to start the new thing (where the minis cost even more than before)
wizards may have promised better quality, but you just cannot believe them any more - you'll have to wait and see. Better yet wait for an independant review (ideally not on the wizards or enworld boards) or take a very good look at the blisters before you buy anything.
Beyond that, I'd really prefer Paizo not doing random minis or artificially limited releases.
I want to be able to just order what I want from Paizo, or just walk into any of the stores in my city to pick up a couple of plastics.
That works with legendary encounters, but it wouldn't work with randomised minis sold on the secondary market - none of the shops around here serves the secondary market, and I doubt Paizo would serve its own secondary market.
I wouldn't have a problem with boxed sets (say, a box of half a dozen goblins, or an assorted bunch of villains), though.
But no more boosters.
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Player Characters will always sell well. No matter how many different ways you pose a character, change out their race, weapons, armor, people will keep buying them.
While I like to pick up PC and NPC types, I generally only do so if the sculpt is particularly well done, or if the subject is something out of the ordinary (but still making sense in the context of the game).
As such, I'd like to see more of the following;- Female characters in sensible gear; I love cheesecake as much as any straight guy, but I've had a female player in almost every game for the past 18 years, and I really don't need them to be sifting through my kinks every time they need a figure. Plus, you really wouldn't be wearing buttless chaps in the Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl.
- Halflings, gnomes, and other small races.
- Demi-humans operating outside their stereotypical '1st Edition' straightjacket roles. We really don't need anymore 'Dwarf in chainmail with axe' or 'Elf woodland scout with bow'.
Another unique thing Pathfinder has is a fair variety of the human sub-races (nationalities). They could either make a "class pack" with 4 of the same or varied classes, each of a different nationality, or they could make nationality themed packs.
I'd see that as a reason not to make figs of those cultures.
Companies already exist, making historical figures that can be drafted in for many of the human nations, at least for the warrior types, in a range of realistic and over-the-top styles.If I already have a pack (or ten) of Vikings, I don't really need to get a male, bearded, 'Pathfinder Barbarian from the Land of the Linnorm Kings'. A Skald, yes. An Ice Witch, yes, but a 'typical viking', no.
Retailers tend to prefer random packs as they usually sell better than non-random minis.There is also the facts that;
- Display space is minimised. Instead of having 60 individual pegs for the typical DDM release (pegs which need to be individually labelled, and filled, and stocktaked, and ordered, and will be trashed out of order by the hamfisted public), they can stick a few boxes up as a placeholder, and every time a sale is made, just dig into the crate behind the counter for a box to replace it.
- It speeds up the sale process, reducing bottlenecks in the aisles from casual (or OCD) browsers. It becomes a five-minute decision, you either want a box or you don't. No need to examine every single peg, looking for The One Figure to Rule Them All.
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I don't think that Paizo would have the sales to warrant the considerable expense of producing pre-painted plastics. Of course, with the release of PFRPG they may have some extra cash to fling around. :)
Personally, I'd be happy with a wider range of unpainted metal figs for Pathfinder-specific creatures/personalities. Some of my wish list:
Kobold king and minions (Me likey Slurks!)
Grey Maidens
BBEG's from each module
Classic Monsters Revisited
Unique Monsters
I think there are some companies that offer pre-painted metals, so that may be a way to go too...
I want to be able to just order what I want from Paizo, or just walk into any of the stores in my city to pick up a couple of plastics.
Most people would probably prefer to do this, but it's really not economical to market the minis in single format. Pack sets are the most economical way to release them. As has commented, single pack sets take up a lot of room, and takes up a lot of the retailer's time to keep them stocked and organized. Retailers ideally want product that moves, and not product that sits on the shelf waiting for that one person who wants that one particular item. This is why the set approach works best as surely 1 or 2 of the minis inside will entice you to buy the whole set.
For those that only want select minis, well eBay has many decent shops that can accomodate them.
I thought they didn't sell that well, because they looked like crap and cost more than those sets that didn't, and therefore they killed DDM to start the new thing (where the minis cost even more than before).
I don't recall that the cost really changed much on these, but I have no doubt that the poor paint appearance of the minis could have slowed the sales from previous. The DDM line was scrapped mainly to refocus efforts on selling to the roleplayers which consisted of the primary market of mini buyers.
Although many mini buyers are critical of paying more money for less minis, most have agreed (based on the WotC forum discussions) that as long as the paint jobs are decent they will still buy them at the higher price... as will you and I.
Wizards may have promised better quality, but you just cannot believe them any more - you'll have to wait and see. Better yet wait for an independant review (ideally not on the wizards or enworld boards) or take a very good look at the blisters before you buy anything.
I don't blame you for your lack of faith in WotC, (I'm not even sure if I have any left for them), but they would have nothing to gain by not improving the quality. Based on the images of the minis I can make out on the Amazon product pictures, it looks like there could be good potential for these... but alas, looking at a screen shot of one not contained in a blister back will make is so much easier to determine.
We really don't need anymore 'Dwarf in chainmail with axe' or 'Elf woodland scout with bow'.
Aye, aye!
I'd see that as a reason not to make figs of those cultures. Companies already exist, making historical figures that can be drafted in for many of the human nations, at least for the warrior types, in a range of realistic and over-the-top styles.
True, except that all the minis you refer to are not pre-painted plastic minis.
For those people that have the time to prepare and paint the minis -- great! And don't forget to store them safely away to prevent from damage. And be ready to glare at your stupid friends that flick the metal painted minis over or in general handle them in ways that damage them or the paint).
Plastic minis (the vinyl-plastic that WotC uses, and not the Games Worshop fragile-plastic), are just superior to metal in most every way! (Unless you like to paint the minis, then you'll be wanting metal). When I go to my gaming sessions, I throw my needed minis in a small box, no packing material required and head off to my session. Metal minis were always such a pain to transport. Like someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, "Plastic Minis are the wave of the future".
Most people would probably prefer to do this, but it's really not economical to market the minis in single format.
It seems to work for Legendary Encounters. I know all the stuff wizards preaches to the masses about why they sold sets, but Reaper has a different gospel, and I think they know what they're talking about.
As I said, I'd be willing for "unit sets", i.e. you buy a box of 4 orcs, or the "villain set" consisting of the BBEG, his Henchman, and two of his usual bodyguards.
Although many mini buyers are critical of paying more money for less minis, most have agreed (based on the WotC forum discussions) that as long as the paint jobs are decent they will still buy them at the higher price... as will you and I.
In the last couple of sets I've bought, things were getting really ugly. There's commons in Underdark that look better than Rares in whatever the later sets were called.
And prices went up at least twice during the time when I bought, and I think it went up again after that.
Not that I'd ever again buy anything from them.
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Given the existence of DDM, Paizo should stick to just commissioning minis of the iconic characters/monsters from the adventure paths. I don't think people need more orcs, but a Curse of the Crimson Throne pack with some Grey Maidens, Queen's Physicians, Korvosan Guards, Sabine and Illeosa? That would be useful. And I'd pick it up in an instant, even if they were unpainted.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Grey Maidens are high on the in-house want list.
Would be nice :)
I used DDM changeling rogues as an okay substitute - the blank face conveyed the idea. I'm using hobgoblin bladebearers for the mantis - red skin, two hooked swords, works out ok. Kenkus for the queen's physicians, of course.
I find I can usually turn up a decent proxy out of my 1,000+ distinct sculpts. I might have a miniature problem :)
I don't think people need more orcs
I'd like some PF orcs, please, not wizards orcs.
Okay, bad example - they're pretty similar. But starting with goblins, differences become more pronounced. Ogres. Dragons - oh my, DDM has two badges of dragons: 3e dragons and 4e dragons. Neither look like PF dragons, and I don't like the 4e ones.
I'd like some PF orcs, please, not wizards orcs.
What's the matter with purple orcs?
*grins*
Although I do have an army of over 100 DDM orcs... some day I may break down and paint them. Yes, that would defeat the purpose of buying pre-painted minis -- but alas -- I'm not sure how much longer I can bare looking at my purple orcs for :(
Although I do have an army of over 100 DDM orcs...
I'd have to count them, but they could be that much or more. Orcs were often commons, and I used to buy by the case. Could easily be over 100.
But I want orcs with scarred faces or sacks over their head. I want insane orc monks in robes with brains addled by breathing in volcanic fumes for visions.
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I also agree that the pre-painted plastic mini's are the future of the game.
I also understand that you have to produce a lot of them to make it profitable. How about teaming up with a company that already does this such as Reaper or Rackham. (The Reaper mini's are "okay", but for some reason I think they would look so much better to me if they were on a round base. The Rackham Confrontation/AT-43 figures look great, and would only need to have their base sizes reduced slightly for D&D play.)
It would be great to see Adventure Path mini sets released. (A box of the iconic adventurers, a box of notable npc's and a box or two of foes).
Make that Reaper...
As a Confrontation player (Well, former, at this point...), I can tell you that Rackham has hamstrung itself as far as the pre-paints go. Their game is near dead in the water (And that is a very sad thing...).
2 years in to the pre-paints, and we barely have 2.5 playable armies... Glad I still have all of my metals.
-Uriel
As a Confrontation player (Well, former, at this point...), I can tell you that Rackham has hamstrung itself as far as the pre-paints go. Their game is near dead in the water (And that is a very sad thing...).
2 years in to the pre-paints, and we barely have 2.5 playable armies... Glad I still have all of my metals.
Sorry to take this a bit off topic, but how good are those plastics from Confrontation, from an "awesome sculpt and useful for PF campaigns" point of view?
Plus, how can you tell apart the plastics and the metals? I tried looking at ebay, but they never say whether its metal or not, and always show painted figures (which could be actual pre-painted plastics or minis that have been painted to showcase them).
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Given the existence of DDM, Paizo should stick to just commissioning minis of the iconic characters/monsters from the adventure paths. I don't think people need more orcs, but a Curse of the Crimson Throne pack with some Grey Maidens, Queen's Physicians, Korvosan Guards, Sabine and Illeosa? That would be useful. And I'd pick it up in an instant, even if they were unpainted.
Personally, I don't have much interest in iconic characters that the players would play, but the monsters, etc, oh yes.
I am not sure that Paizo actually commission these, so much as they have a deal with Crocodile so that Crocodile design them and get Ironwind to produce them and then they are sold through Paizo's store and maybe Paizo get some extra dough from the ones sold through Crocodile's store or in games stores, etc.
Although I do have an army of over 100 DDM orcs...Hmm. I would have though I had a lot more than that, but looks like 151 orcs, in 31 different sculpts. Plus a few repaints not counted in the above.
Curse you! *shakes fist* I have 141 orcs. I can not be beaten! No one can have more orcs than this self-professed orc fan! Look out eBay, orcs are on the menu! Curse you for making me buy more purple orcs!!!
On a side note, the repaints you talk of... are they your own re-paints or Wizard's repaints? If the are Wizard repaints could you please let me know which ones they are. Thanks.