What is unclear from these enchantment descriptions is if feats or class abilities apply to the enchanted items or how exactly they apply. What I mean is this: - Can you use the improved shield bash feat or any of the other feats involving shields with an animated shield?
- Can you use the weapon focus feat or any other weapon based feat with a dancing weapon of the appropriate type?
- How does the fighter’s class ability of armor training apply to an animated shield?
- How does the fighter’s class ability of weapon training apply to dancing weapons?
And one question that is unclear to me is how exactly a dancing weapon works. Does it just dance on its own using the owner's BAB or does it take penalties for the owner not being proficient in said weapon?
Example: A wizard 10 finds a +1 dancing longsword. Would it have a +6 to hit when dancing (BAB +5, +1 magic) or a +2 to hit when dancing (BAB +5, +1 magic, -4 non-proficient)?
"As a standard action, a dancing weapon
can be loosed to attack on its own. It fights for 4 rounds
using the base attack bonus of the one who loosed it
and then drops. While dancing, it cannot make attacks
of opportunity, and the person who activated it is not
considered armed with the weapon. In all other respects,
it is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all
maneuvers and effects that target items."
The block is from the discription of dancing. It states:
1. It attacks using the BAB of the one who loosed it.
2. It cannot make attacks of Opportunity, and the person who loosed it is not considered armed by the weapon.
3. It is considered wielded or attended by the creature using it for all maneuvers and effets.
So the wizard (assuming he is not proficient) would take a -5 penalty to attacking with the sword, therefore the sword takes a -5 penalty while attack when released by the wizard, because attack is a maneuver, and it is treated as wielded by the wizard for all maneuvers.
At least that's my take on it.
Abraham spalding wrote: "As a standard action, a dancing weapon can be loosed to attack on its own. It fights for 4 rounds using the base attack bonus of the one who loosed it and then drops. While dancing, it cannot make attacks of opportunity, and the person who activated it is not considered armed with the weapon. In all other respects, it is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items...."
The block is from the discription of dancing. It states:
1. It attacks using the BAB of the one who loosed it.
2. It cannot make attacks of Opportunity, and the person who loosed it is not considered armed by the weapon.
3. It is considered wielded or attended by the creature using it for all maneuvers and effets.
So the wizard (assuming he is not proficient) would take a -5 penalty to attacking with the sword, therefore the sword takes a -5 penalty while attack when released by the wizard, because attack is a maneuver, and it is treated as wielded by the wizard for all maneuvers.
At least that's my take on it.
Here's the sticking part which you refer to in your post: Pathfinder RPG - BETA (page 346) wrote: In all other respects, it is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items. Notice how it says "that target items" at the end. Does this refer to weapon focus or improved sunder? Does weapon focus even target a weapon? You can target an opponent's weapon with improved sunder or improved disarm just as you can use disintegrate to destroy a weapon.
It also states it can "attack on its own." This is why I asked what the bonus to hit would be since it is not as though the owner was wielding it. By saying that the person is not considered armed makes it sound like it does not matter if the owner is proficient or not.
The BAB part I mentioned in my example, which I understand. Notice the +5 for BAB in both instances. By the way, the penalty for non-proficiency is only -4 as shown on pages 85, 91, & 94 under the Normal section of the Exotic, Martial and Simple Weapon Proficiency feats in the Feats chapter as well as page 99 under the Weapon section in the Equipment chapter.
Max Money wrote: - Can you use the improved shield bash feat or any of the other feats involving shields with an animated shield?
You couldn't make a bash with it unless it was also enchanted as a dancing weapon. Any feats that don't involve attacking with shields would still work, though, since you count as wielding the shield.
Max Money wrote: - Can you use the weapon focus feat or any other weapon based feat with a dancing weapon of the appropriate type?
Yes, you are wielding the weapon.
Max Money wrote: - How does the fighter’s class ability of armor training apply to an animated shield?
I don't know about this, but if armor training affects shields normally, then yes. I would say it doesn't, however.
Max Money wrote: - How does the fighter’s class ability of weapon training apply to dancing weapons?
If the weapon is from the the fighters group, then he gets the bonus.
The only difference between a weapon that it is dancing and a weapon that is wielded is it cannot make attacks of opportunity, and the person who activated it is not considered armed with the weapon.
The only difference between an animated shield and one wielded is that both the character's hands are free.
dthunder wrote: Max Money wrote: - Can you use the improved shield bash feat or any of the other feats involving shields with an animated shield?
You couldn't make a bash with it unless it was also enchanted as a dancing weapon. Any feats that don't involve attacking with shields would still work, though, since you count as wielding the shield.
Max Money wrote: - Can you use the weapon focus feat or any other weapon based feat with a dancing weapon of the appropriate type?
Yes, you are wielding the weapon.
Max Money wrote: - How does the fighter’s class ability of armor training apply to an animated shield?
I don't know about this, but if armor training affects shields normally, then yes. I would say it doesn't, however.
Max Money wrote: - How does the fighter’s class ability of weapon training apply to dancing weapons?
If the weapon is from the the fighters group, then he gets the bonus.
The only difference between a weapon that it is dancing and a weapon that is wielded is it cannot make attacks of opportunity, and the person who activated it is not considered armed with the weapon.
The only difference between an animated shield and one wielded is that both the character's hands are free. Could you point out in the book (or pdf) what section supports your answers please.
"Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gains
added protection from the armor he is wearing. Whenever
he is wearing armor, he gains an additional +1 armor bonus
to his armor class, reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a
minimum of 0), and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus
allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th,
and 15th), a fighter gains even more protection, increasing
these bonuses by +1 each time, for a total of +4 to armor class at
15th level, with a –4 reduction to the armor check penalty and
a +4 increase to the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed."
To be blunt: it says Armor Training, not Armor shield & Training.
"Whenever he is wearing armor, he gains an additional +1 armor bonus
to his armor class, reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a
minimum of 0), and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus
allowed by his armor by 1"
There is no wording of shields. And shileds don't have a maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.
So running around naked with a shiled won't give you the bonus, neighter will you get a reduces the armor check penalty on the shiled.
...IMHO :-)
Zark wrote: To be blunt: it says Armor Training, not Armor shield & Training.
"Whenever he is wearing armor, he gains an additional +1 armor bonus
to his armor class, reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a
minimum of 0), and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus
allowed by his armor by 1"
There is no wording of shields. And shileds don't have a maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.
So running around naked with a shiled won't give you the bonus, neighter will you get a reduces the armor check penalty on the shiled.
...IMHO :-)
That is an interesting line of thought. I had not looked at the mechanics of a shield (i.e. no Dex bonus for shields) until now. A shield would not get all the bonuses included in the class feature. Thank you for that point.
But what about the other questions? :-P
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