T's Hideous Laughter allows one save, and after that you're out of commission for several rounds. Usually that means that with one failed save, you can get a coffee while the rest of the party finishes the fight without you. Or, if an enemy is affected, he's as good as dead.
I think the victim should get an extra chance each round to snap out of it. Make it a full-round action, so it's nasty enough, but low-level effects shouldn't be so final.
I had a player "assist" an affected character by slapping him and trying to shake him out of it. For that, I allowed another save with a +2 modifier.
I think the victim should get an extra chance each round to snap out of it. Make it a full-round action, so it's nasty enough, but low-level effects shouldn't be so final.
I think Dragon's breath should have one Reflex save per die of damage, you know so you don't get roasted to death too... and swords, those things are sharp, successful hits should re-roll for the victim to have a chance to duck at the last minute. =P
Really guys, if magic is so game breaking to you, why not just houserule every other magic school out of your game and only leave the pew-pew evocations? That should be something more manageable for you, isn't it?
Tsk tsk tsk, Kaeyoss! I expected nerfy carebear comments from anyone but you! You're killing me man!
I think the victim should get an extra chance each round to snap out of it. Make it a full-round action, so it's nasty enough, but low-level effects shouldn't be so final.I think Dragon's breath should have one Reflex save per die of damage, you know so you don't get roasted to death too... and swords, those things are sharp, successful hits should re-roll for the victim to have a chance to duck at the last minute. =P
Not the same thing. Dragon's Breath deals damage, and then it's done. You get hit with a sword, you at least get to try and move away, hit them back, or cast a spell to stop them.
You get hit with a Save Or Suck spell, and you're out of the game. Wizards rule the Tier 1 roost right now because they have the best Save or Suck spells in the game right now - they just have to immobilize you, and then they can kill you at their leisure.
Recovery Saves would go a long way towards mitigating this problem.
Really guys, if magic is so game breaking to you, why not just houserule every other magic school out of your game and only leave the pew-pew evocations? That should be something more manageable for you, isn't it?
Tsk tsk tsk, Kaeyoss! I expected nerfy carebear comments from anyone but you! You're killing me man!
Translate: I play a Tier 1 class and I don't want you to take away the overpowered, broken spell effects that I rely on to put me head and shoulders above everyone else in the game but other spellcasters. :lol:
You get hit with a Save Or Suck spell, and you're out of the game. Wizards rule the Tier 1 roost right now because they have the best Save or Suck spells in the game right now - they just have to immobilize you, and then they can kill you at their leisure.
Translate: I should be playing 4E where it's all pew-pew and balanced DPS, videogamey action. Might I recommend you Palladium Fantasy? That game has "magic" that would be considerably more to your liking.
Really... first you guys get game designers to FUBAR magic into something that can only be used for hack&slash, then you start complaining because it's used for hack&slash. And the worst part is that there's no stopping you guys, the publishers have your ear so, when will you stop?
You get hit with a Save Or Suck spell, and you're out of the game. Wizards rule the Tier 1 roost right now because they have the best Save or Suck spells in the game right now - they just have to immobilize you, and then they can kill you at their leisure.Translate: I should be playing 4E where it all pew-pew and balanced DPS, videogamey action. Might I recommend you Palladium Fantasy? That game has "magic" that would be considerably more to your liking.
I'm quite familiar with Palladium Fantasy, thank you very much. Guess what? Its magic system also sucks. The overall power level of the spells are on the low side, but there are some spells that are crazy powerful, and it still suffers from - guess what - the presence of Save or Suck spells (please see Carpet of Adhesion)!
And although you seem to treat ideas like "game balance" with naught but scorn and derision, anyone that wants to play something besides a Tier 1 spellcaster will probably end up gravitating towards another game system instead of playing Pathfinder RPG. After all, ideas like "game balance" exist because player's don't like either getting the snot beat out of them or not being able to do anything because of poorly designed classes, spells, or rules. Who the hell wants to play the guy that doesn't get to do anything but get Dominated and carry everyone else's gear? :lol:
So call me a carebear. Shriek about how I should be playing 4E. But unless the power of SoD or SoS spells is brought to heel in Pathfinder, we're still going to be looking at the same old game balance problems in this system that we saw in 3.X.
But if Pathfinder isn't fixed, that's fine - there's plenty of other good role-playing games out there for my friends and I to play.
Really... first you guys get game designers to FUBAR magic into something that can only be used for hack&slash, then you start complaining because it's used for hack&slash. And the worst part is that there's no stopping you guys, the publishers have your ear so, when will you stop?
I don't think that the introduction of Recovery Saves for SoS spells and the elimination of SoD spells will reduce magic to "hack-n-slash action". But it will allow other classes to actually be able to do things and make contributions to the game in combat (as opposed to just watching from the sidelines). Given the fact that they can't Teleport or Scry or Plane Shift or anything like that, do think that's maybe the least we can do for the Fighters, Barbarians, Rogues, Paladins, and Rangers out there?
And assuming that what you've said is true - maybe the publishers have our ear... because we're correct?
|
Really... first you guys get game designers to FUBAR magic into something that can only be used for hack&slash, then you start complaining because it's used for hack&slash. And the worst part is that there's no stopping you guys, the publishers have your ear so, when will you stop?
They're not fun. That's the problem. This is a game, which should be fun by definition. SoS spells can make the game less fun, but they're not gonna remove you from the game. SoD spells make you pack up and go home or spend the rest of the session building a new character.
Seriously, who just wants to sit and watch D&D? :p
I don't think that the introduction of Recovery Saves for SoS spells and the elimination of SoD spells will reduce magic to "hack-n-slash action"
Actually PF magic is already reduced to a vulgar pew-pew I wouldn't touch with a 10ft pole, so I can care less whatever more nerfing comes, I'm just amused that no matter how much game designers water magic down, it never seems to be enough for you guys. Actually I'd like to see more monsters with "self Cure/Res" spell like abilities to see if your attention now turned to nerfing heals and resurrection magic (now that'd be fun to watch!). =D
|
I'd just look at evaluating the whole set of spells around that level -- it seems like many 1st and 2nd level spells should, in general, have some work-around that serves to decrease negative effects over the course of a combat. Many spells already have this, so that seems to be a guide as to intent -- Grease has saves per round in the form of balance checks or careful movement, Hold pPerson provides a new save every round, Lleep can be counter-acted if allies try specifically to awaken you, etc.
So, sure, I can see a gap here in the case of Hideous Laughter, and I'd at the very least house-rule in some similar allowance of having allies aid you in recovering. As it is, the spell is only slightly worse than Hold Person and Sleep in that the subject isn't helpless and isn't therefore going to be the immediate target of a coup de grace, but that seems only a small mitigating factor to argue over.
I'd say it's a good point, and I'd endorse an addition to the text to specifically say that victims can be granted new saves if assisted.
I have compiled a comprehensive list of what spells in the main Beta book need Recovery Saves or other changes in this thread. I'll be covering the spells in the Web Enchancement and Illusion spells at a date in the near future.
No they don't need extra saves...you need...dun dun dun...dispel magic...or better saves.
1) You can only cast so many Dispel Magic spells per day. And at higher levels, Dispel Magic doesn't even cut it anymore - you're going to need to throw down with Greater Dispel Magic if you want to remove those kinds of effects. Unless you have Greater Dispel Magic scrolls coming out of your ears or you've filled up every 6th level spell slot with a Greater Dispel Magic spell, you're going to only be able to get rid of a few effects before you run out of dispelling power.
2) If you give everyone in the game good saving throws across the board - or even medium saves - then most of these spells are going to be useless. I'd prefer to give people a "weak" save and give them Recovery Saves then give them all "strong" saves and make these kind of spells utterly and completely worthless.
You get hit with a Save Or Suck spell, and you're out of the game. Wizards rule the Tier 1 roost right now because they have the best Save or Suck spells in the game right now - they just have to immobilize you, and then they can kill you at their leisure.Translate: I should be playing 4E where it's all pew-pew and balanced DPS, videogamey action. Might I recommend you Palladium Fantasy? That game has "magic" that would be considerably more to your liking.
Really... first you guys get game designers to FUBAR magic into something that can only be used for hack&slash, then you start complaining because it's used for hack&slash. And the worst part is that there's no stopping you guys, the publishers have your ear so, when will you stop?
Now see here! Spells should have a variety of effects and in PF they pretty much do. However a few extra chances to free one's self from a terrible spell wouldn't be that bad. Even if it was a degeneratve chance at succeeding the next save, like a progressive -2. Even that would be nice.
And as for your coments of 4E Dogbert, even with a bunch of nicey-nice extra saves, magic in PF still does everything in the whole world compared to 4th edition.
Not the same thing. Dragon's Breath deals damage, and then it's done. You get hit with a sword, you at least get to try and move away, hit them back, or cast a spell to stop them.
It's not the same thing... until you encounter a damage effect in which the damage rolled will kill you if you fail to save. Then it's actually worse because coming back from it, assuming your party has your back and wins the fight, is harder or at least more costly than just waiting out the duration.
I do not want to see all spells that have the possibility of taking a PC (or opponent) out of the fight nerfed down. What I'd rather see is some form of action points system where someone can choose to spend the resources on extra save attempts for ongoing effects or hoard them for later when the fight may be even more important.
Edit: And with a hero point system of some sort, PCs and major NPCs can be given them (or more of them) to provide with more plot immunity than mooks. And mooks can be left without them completely since they should be easily mopped up with spells like hold person/monster and tasha's hideous laughter.
Anyone without any actual contribution: Out. And take your pet peeves and insultes with you.
Let's get this discussion back on track, without any hyperbole.
No they don't need extra saves...you need...dun dun dun...dispel magic...or better saves.
No dispel magic until level 5 at least.
I have no problem with power word: kill killing people. I have no problem with dominate person being really bad news for you (unless the caster makes an error and attempts to make you go against your nature and you get a new save).
But hideous laughter isn't power word: kill. It's not dominate person.
The problem with hideous laughter is that it's really low level. We're talking about something you can get long before you can get any counter-measures - wizards get it as early as 3rd level, and bards can start with that spell. And before you have a chance to acquire something to save you if you fail, the spell's duration becomes long enough to take you out of the fight. And even after you get the defenses, this relatively cheap resource (a 1st or 2nd level slot) can take enemies clean out unless they blow their resources on it (and once you've run out of dispels because of this, the heavy stuff will get you).
Irresistable dance now gets a save to reduce it to 1 round. Hold person has had recovery saves since 3.5. Hideous laughter allowing no comeback doesn't fit the theme at all.
The higher the spell level, the more lethal and permanent the spell. That should be true across the board.
Good points KaeYoss, the lower the spell level, the "wussier" it should be and the easier its defenses.
Hrm - does protection from chaos/evil/good/law offer any protection from it? If so ... well, I guess the spell stays as is. If not, maybe they should?
Tasha's Hideous Laughter may be one of the few enchantment spells where it really seems appropriate to have the duration be Concentration-based. While I'm not generally in favor of nerfing a spell, continuing to apply the joke, so to speak, may be a fitting revision to the spell, even more so than allowing additional saves.
Lots of monsters are immune to mind affecting spells. Some PC races have bonuses to saves on mind affecting, as well. Anything with an intelligence score of -, 1, or 2, isn't affected by Hideous Laughter. Monsters of different types get a +4 saving throw bonus. It's close range (eww, especially at low levels), will negates, SR yes. It only lasts for 1 rd/level (not much at low levels). Monsters are prone, but not helpless. It doesn't scale well at higher levels, either.
Spells like web and glitterdust were incredibly powerful for their level, and needed to be toned down. Hideous laughter was never considered a particularly powerful spell, and still isn't.
Tasha's Hideous Laughter may be one of the few enchantment spells where it really seems appropriate to have the duration be Concentration-based. While I'm not generally in favor of nerfing a spell, continuing to apply the joke, so to speak, may be a fitting revision to the spell, even more so than allowing additional saves.
That's an excellent idea, representing that the caster has to continue pummelling the subject with puns, jokes, etc. I like the idea!
Tasha's Hideous Laughter may be one of the few enchantment spells where it really seems appropriate to have the duration be Concentration-based.
Excellent!
Lots of monsters are immune to mind affecting spells. Some PC races have bonuses to saves on mind affecting, as well. Anything with an intelligence score of -, 1, or 2, isn't affected by Hideous Laughter. Monsters of different types get a +4 saving throw bonus. It's close range (eww, especially at low levels), will negates, SR yes. It only lasts for 1 rd/level (not much at low levels). Monsters are prone, but not helpless. It doesn't scale well at higher levels, either.
Spells like web and glitterdust were incredibly powerful for their level, and needed to be toned down. Hideous laughter was never considered a particularly powerful spell, and still isn't.
Repeat your argument, and ignore everything that doesn't help your average human fighter or halfling rogue against the human enchanter.
Wait, I'll do it, and add my comments:
Lots of monsters are immune to mind affecting spells. Some PC races have bonuses to saves on mind affecting, as well. Anything with an intelligence score of -, 1, or 2, isn't affected by Hideous Laughter. Monsters of different types get a +4 saving throw bonus. It's close range (eww, especially at low levels), will negates, SR yes. It only lasts for 1 rd/level (not much at low levels). Monsters are prone, but not helpless. It doesn't scale well at higher levels, either.
Spells like web and glitterdust were incredibly powerful for their level, and needed to be toned down. Hideous laughter was never considered a particularly powerful spell, and still isn't.
Repeat your argument, and ignore everything that doesn't help your average human fighter or halfling rogue against the human enchanter.
Wait, I'll do it, and add my comments:
It's close range: Not that bad, you're often within short range, anyway. It's enough to hide behind a meat shield.
Will negates: Yes, but if you don't make that save, you're screwed.
It only lasts for 1 rd/lv: Sure, that's not that much at level 1 - but then again, my suggested change wouldn't affect that situation at all. But at level 3 (the earliest a wizard will get it), it's already a large part of the fight.
You're prone, but not helpless. So? You're still unable to do anything worthwhile.
Doesn't scale at higher levels. What? It might have the usual low-level spell DC problem, but beyond that, it's fine. Sure, it doesn't scale well beyond, say, level 5, but that's because by then it's already effectively "duration: the whole damn fight"
There.
You've hit this nail on the head.
As a tool for a PC bard or mage, this is a weak spell. Touch range, good chance you get seriously hurt delivering it. Short duration. Single target. Many things you face are immune or resistant.
But as a tool for enemies to use againt our player characters, especially our idiot, will-less fighters in the front line (that insult goes to the system that perpetrates fighters with crappy mental ability score dump stats and weak Will saves and crappy skill points), this spell is excruciatingly dangerous.
However:
1. It's funny. Encourage Mr. fighter to roleplay his laughter. Make the situation entertaining. I guarantee, months later, when you're sitting around the table reminiscing the events of the campaign, that sceen where Fred spent the whole fight rolling on the floor laughing will be one of the highlights.
2. Don't overuse it. If every NPC and BBEG has this spell, along with some orcs with scrolls, goblins with Contingencies, and kobolds with wands, then your players will feel used and abused. But one encounter in a whole campaign? Or maybe a couple? Pure comedy gold. I mean, come on, how many encounters can the PCs face this spell before they're level 5 or higher, and this spell has become practically obsolete? Unless you're invading a castle full of evil, prankster bards, it doesn't seem likely they'll see this spell used against them more than once or twice.
Sure, it doesn't scale well beyond, say, level 5, but that's because by then it's already effectively "duration: the whole damn fight"
Nope, but it's easy to dispel by then, so not much chance anyone will be out "the whole damn fight". Or if they are, maybe the PC spellcasters will get a clue. In fact, this could be a good teaching method. If the PC spellcasters aren't preparing spells to counter the SoD/SoS spells, you could hit someone with Hold Person and then coup de grace them, and let them learn the lesson by paying for a diamond at the temple back in town. Or you could teach them a lesson by letting them roll on the floor laughing for "the whole damn fight".
Tasha's Hideous Laughter may be one of the few enchantment spells where it really seems appropriate to have the duration be Concentration-based.
Nope.
That would make it impossible for BBEGs to use it. Your party of 5 PCs finds the BBEG and his pair of orc henchmen. He casts Hideous Laughter and takes your fighter out of the fight, but takes himself out of it too? Now the 4 remaining PCs mop up the two orcs and kill the BBEG, or he drops the worthless spell and sets the fighter free.
Either way, he's wasting his time with this spell if it requires concentration.
This change would relegate this spell to only being useful for enemy bards/mages who travel in large enough groups that they can afford to take themselves out of the fight to keep your PC fighter out of the fight, relying on their big group of allies to win the fight while they are otherwise engaged in concentrating.
Worse, it's a touch range, so the poor idiot mage who ran up to the front lines of battle to touch the PC fighter is now a prime, easy, low-AC, low-HP mage target standing right in front of all the rest of the PC party instead of safely behind his allies.
Nope.
Concentration breaks this spell and buries it in the Bin of Worthless Spells forever.
Why shouldn't every spellcaster and their familiar have that spell? It's their "Get Out of Fighter's Range" card.
If something that is easy to obtain is abusive with repeated use, it should be fixed, not artificially limited. It's like rock-paper-scissors-kick in the privates. The kick always wins. That doesn't mean you should encourage people to use it only occasionally and otherwise stick to rock and so on, it means that it should be fixed.
Also, the spell may be easy to dispel - once. But it's easier for enemies to use this spell than for you to dispel it. You'll run out of 3rd and/or 6th-level spells before enemies run out of 1st and 2nd-level spells.
BBEGs who have to rely on 1st-level spells aren't that B and B, are they? The BBEG will use fireball, destruction, meteor swarm, and so on, while his henchman will use hideous laughter in an attempt to keep one of the enemies away from his boss.
And every self-respecting (and a lot of the not self-respecting) BBEG has henchmen. It's a prerequisite! ;-)
|
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
|
My biggest problem is that most of the time, it's significantly better than hold person, at the same or lower spell level. Not only doesn't it allow saves every round like HP, but it can work on creatures not of the "person" type, albeit at a +4 to their saves. I've seen too many encounters become cakewalks because a bard throws a 1st level spell at the solo fighter type encounter who then is easy pickings.
To try to keep the spell distinct from hold person, I'd add in a bit where the spell is automatically ended if the target is attacked or threatened with deadly force (similar to the rules for fascinate or hypnotic pattern, etc.)
BBEGs who have to rely on 1st-level spells aren't that B and B, are they? The BBEG will use fireball, destruction, meteor swarm, and so on, while his henchman will use hideous laughter in an attempt to keep one of the enemies away from his boss.And every self-respecting (and a lot of the not self-respecting) BBEG has henchmen. It's a prerequisite! ;-)
There are BBEGs at every level. 1st level adventures have BBEGs in them. Hopefully, those BBEGs are not dropping meteor swarms on the level 1 PCs...
And in my example, I described a BBEG with a couple henchmen. But a couple henchment, alone, without their BBEG blasting over their shoulders, won't stand up to a party long at all. That's why they're henchmen and not BBEGs themselves.
My biggest problem is that most of the time, it's significantly better than hold person, at the same or lower spell level. Not only doesn't it allow saves every round like HP, but it can work on creatures not of the "person" type, albeit at a +4 to their saves. I've seen too many encounters become cakewalks because a bard throws a 1st level spell at the solo fighter type encounter who then is easy pickings.
To try to keep the spell distinct from hold person, I'd add in a bit where the spell is automatically ended if the target is attacked or threatened with deadly force (similar to the rules for fascinate or hypnotic pattern, etc.)
That's a good point.
I have alrady ruled this on one occasion, where a PC used Hideous Laughter on someone they encountered, then the PCs attacked him.
For some reason, his sense of humor faded fast when the comedian and his buddies drew lethal weapons and assaulted him.
Maybe not in the spell description, but it seemed to make sense. My player didn't even argue about it.
My biggest problem is that most of the time, it's significantly better than hold person, at the same or lower spell level. Not only doesn't it allow saves every round like HP, but it can work on creatures not of the "person" type, albeit at a +4 to their saves. I've seen too many encounters become cakewalks because a bard throws a 1st level spell at the solo fighter type encounter who then is easy pickings.
To try to keep the spell distinct from hold person, I'd add in a bit where the spell is automatically ended if the target is attacked or threatened with deadly force (similar to the rules for fascinate or hypnotic pattern, etc.)
So something like this:
Any potential threat, such as a hostile creature approaching, allows the laughing creature a new saving throw against the spell. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the laughing creature, automatically breaks the effect. A laughing creature's ally may shake it free of the spell as a full-round action.
As this is a bit of a nerf, I would advocate for changing the duration of the spell to: 1d4 rounds +1 round/level of caster.
Thoughts?
CJ
No, what I'd do is make it more like Hold Person but make it faster to get out of. For example, once it takes hold, there is no save granted when the creature gets its next turn. It always laughs for at least one round. But every subsequent turn, it gets to use a SWIFT action to make a save to break free, and can only try once a turn. Also, duration is 1 round/level with a max of 6 rounds.
Do weapons need to be removed from game? Because they, you know, kill characters, forcing players to sit and watch?
In other words, no, save or suck spells must be returned to their 3.X power at least. The game is built on the assumption, that you can debuff most of melee brute monsters effectively and should do so if you don't want to put your melees into grinders that kill them within 2 rounds (barring very serious optimization). This is a good thing, because pure dps contests are boring.
Edit: And with a hero point system of some sort, PCs and major NPCs can be given them (or more of them) to provide with more plot immunity than mooks. And mooks can be left without them completely since they should be easily mopped up with spells like hold person/monster and tasha's hideous laughter.
This is really pointless. As the definition of mook for most of the level range, is "thing on which you don't want to waste your single-target attack spells".
Why shouldn't every spellcaster and their familiar have that spell? It's their "Get Out of Fighter's Range" card.
Who cares about that? No one does. Spending your action to (maybe) take out a single weaker target is unacceptable, becase that's a free round for other PCs to chop you up. Unless you use groups of weak spellcasters at low-mid levels (at high levels no one cares about mind-affecting compulsions), which few , if any, adventures do, this spell is not likely to see active use by enemies. PCs use it more often, because they gang up on outnumbered but tougher enemies more often.
So something like this:Any potential threat, such as a hostile creature approaching, allows the laughing creature a new saving throw against the spell. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the laughing creature, automatically breaks the effect. A laughing creature's ally may shake it free of the spell as a full-round action.
As this is a bit of a nerf, I would advocate for changing the duration of the spell to: 1d4 rounds +1 round/level of caster.
Following further discussion the final House Rule we came up with was as follows:
Subjects can be shaken out of it, prompting a new save, as a standard action -- which provokes an AOO from adjacent foes.
If the subject is targeted or attacked they get a new save.
If damage is done to the subject it breaks the enchantment.
Duration is 1d4 rounds + 1 round/level of caster.
This ended up being play tested last night in Burnt Offerings against Malfeshnekor...who blew his Will Save. It was not fun for the monster...but it wasn't as brutal as the spell as written would have been.
CJ
In other words, no, save or suck spells must be returned to their 3.X power at least.
Then Pathfinder will be just as broken as 3.5 was, and all we'll be doing is making a lateral move from one game system that breaks down at high levels to another one that breaks down at high levels...
In other words, no, save or suck spells must be returned to their 3.X power at least.Then Pathfinder will be just as broken as 3.5 was, and all we'll be doing is making a lateral move from one game system that breaks down at high levels to another one that breaks down at high levels...
The spells should be left alone. I agree with FatR on this.
However, I think there should be something done to allow PCs and important NPCs ways to recover.
Again, I stress that if you break the spells, then nobody will porepare thm. Somebody suggested changing Hideous Laughter to Duration = Concentration. Do that, and no mage I play, and no NPC I run as a DM, will even think of wasting a page in their spellbook with this broken spell.
Make it suck less, but still suck, and my mages/NPCs will still not use it.
The answer to saving the prcious fighters is **NOT** breaking all SoS/SoD spells into uselessness. It is **NOT** wasting page space to include worthless, useless spells in the core book - might as well just remove them before wasting the paper and ink to print useless spells.
No, the answer to saving the delicate fighters is to fix the fighters. Give them a way out. Make it somewhat unreliable, and a limited resource, so mages might still try to get them with SoS/SoD spells.
Example: Action Points. Even with an A.P., the fighter might still blow a save now and then. Bad luck. Nobody should automatically save at everything or what's the point? Even with an A.P. system, the fighter might find them used up and have to face a few SoS spells, once in a while, on his naked Will save. Again, Nobody should automatically save at everything or what's the point?
That's one example, and a much better example than breaking spells.
Heck, it's fairly obvious that half the spells in the book (take your pick, 3.5 SRD or PFRP) are pretty worthless. Or at least, put it another way, there are certain spells at every level, for every class, that are practiclly "Must-Have" spells. Every caster chooses these "Must-Have" spells. The other spells those casters could choose, but didn't choose, are fairly worthless. They sit there wasting paper and ink, because nobody ever picks them. Sure, some of them are marginal, get used once in a while, but others are in the "Never Ever Ever Used" category.
It's bad enough that D&D has the NEEU category, and that so many spells currently in print fall into this category. Too much paper and ink is wasted on them now as it is.
Breaking SOS/SoD spells and dumping them into the NEEU category is just a bigger waste of paper and ink.
So Sueki Suezo, please, get back on your soap-box about fixing fighters. I hear your pain, and support that campaign fully. But please step off your soap-box about destroying an entire category of useful D&D spells.
I, for one, would love to see these spells remain in the game at a level of usefulness that keeps them out of the NEEU bucket.