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Yep. No more +20 to Diplomacy at 2nd level if you're a Half-Elf Bard. 3.5 had the absurdity of the following:
5 ranks at 2nd level
+4 18 starting Cha
+2 racial
+2 synergy (5 ranks Bluff)
+2 synergy (5 ranks Knowledge (nobility and royalty))
+2 synergy (5 ranks Sense Motive)
+3 Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
Yep. No more +20 to Diplomacy at 2nd level if you're a Half-Elf Bard. 3.5 had the absurdity of the following:
5 ranks at 2nd level
+4 18 starting Cha
+2 racial
+2 synergy (5 ranks Bluff)
+2 synergy (5 ranks Knowledge (nobility and royalty))
+2 synergy (5 ranks Sense Motive)
+3 Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
I never understood this line of thinking. If anything was broken in 3.5, it was the absurd possibilities.
I was under the, probably mistaken, impression that only one synergy could apply to any particular skill roll. If not I would probably house rule it that way.
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Official synergies appear to have gone from PF, but that is possibly because so many skills have been condensed, that what would previously have given a bonus to an old skill, may not apply to all the skills in the new condensed group.
But that was always the case, before. Many of those synergies quoted above should have only applied to their specific situation.
5 ranks of Disguise shouldn't affect your Bluff skill, when you're trying to make a feint. I don't care if your moustasche is crooked, when you're trying to gut me.
5 ranks of Knowledge (nobility) is for schmoozing at the Duke's Grand Ball; it should get you nowhere, when trying to gatecrash a lowlife event.
That doesn't stop me, as DM, giving out circumstance bonuses for PC backgrounds, complementary skills, or allowing a PC to 'Aid Another' on himself, using a related skill. "Yes, you recognise his family crest, and avoid name-dropping you work for his rival, which would have been a social gaffe".
But it will be my decision if and when they occur, not because I've been brow-beaten by a rules-lawyer shoving a book in my face.
...it will be my decision if and when they occur, not because I've been brow-beaten by a rules-lawyer shoving a book in my face.
But physical synergies tend to be applicable regardless, unless the situation is particularly... odd.
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Yep. No more +20 to Diplomacy at 2nd level if you're a Half-Elf Bard. 3.5 had the absurdity of the following:
5 ranks at 2nd level
+4 18 starting Cha
+2 racial
+2 synergy (5 ranks Bluff)
+2 synergy (5 ranks Knowledge (nobility and royalty))
+2 synergy (5 ranks Sense Motive)
+3 Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
YEs... I remember this combo fondly... I was one such abuser, in the past... LOL!
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Yep. No more +20 to Diplomacy at 2nd level if you're a Half-Elf Bard. 3.5 had the absurdity of the following:
It's not that much better in Pathfinder. A level 2 PF half-elf has a +15 diplomacy score (higher charisma, no racial or synergies but they get Skill Focus as a bonus feat so can choose Persuasive as their 1st level feat). At level 20 they only wind up 2 lower than old 3.5 diplomacy scores, thanks to Skill Focus and the 2-fer feats doubling at 10 ranks.
Well, that's illegal.
3.5 PHB pg66 - Skill Synergy, first sentance:
"It's possible for a character to have two skills that work well together..."So you can only ahve up to one other skill involved for Skill Synergy bonus.
It does not say "It's possible for a character to have only two" or "exactly two", etc. Or, look at it this way:
Bluff gives a synergy bonus to Diplomacy. That's two skills that work well together.
Knowledge: Nobility gives a synergy bonus to Diplomacy. That's two skills that work well together.
Sense Motive gives a synergy bonus to Diplomacy. That's two skills that work well together.
The fact that there are four skills involved total doesn't prevent "a character to have two skills that work well together" multiple times.
The final nail in the coffin in this regard is that synergies are untyped bonuses from different sources and thus, by rule, stack.
The final nail in the coffin in this regard is that synergies are untyped bonuses from different sources and thus, by rule, stack.
Nammed bonuses of the same type do not stack unless specifically stated otherwise.
It does not say anywhere that synergy bonuses stack, therefore by RAW, they don't
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The final nail in the coffin in this regard is that synergies are untyped bonuses from different sources and thus, by rule, stack.Nammed bonuses of the same type do not stack unless specifically stated otherwise.
It does not say anywhere that synergy bonuses stack, therefore by RAW, they don't
I've come across this same problem, and whilst looking through the DMG and PHB I came to the amazing discovery that it seems a Synergy (which itself isn't a bonus, nor is it ever referred to as a bonus) gives an untyped +2. It stacks with itself as a result.
However, there is the line:
You DM may limit certain synergies, or he may add more synergies for specific situations.
That should solve most parties problems there, since its advocating common sense on the DM's part to solve abuses.
The final nail in the coffin in this regard is that synergies are untyped bonuses from different sources and thus, by rule, stack.Nammed bonuses of the same type do not stack unless specifically stated otherwise.
It does not say anywhere that synergy bonuses stack, therefore by RAW, they don't
Synergies are not named bonuses, nor are they typed. Look them up yourself. Even if they WERE typed, they'd most likely be circumstance bonuses, which are one of two types that DO stack (dodge is the other).
Creative Director
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Zurai is once more correct. Guys, read the 3.5 FAQ if you don't believe him... and please don't derail the thread to a stupid 3.5 argument. It's irrelevant to my original question. I want to know, for sure, if there are no synergies in PRPG or not.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Synergy bonuses are not in PF RPG.
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Nero is dead on. It's called a "Synergy Bonus" therefore it is "named". That means it's a named bonus and does not stack by the RAW.Not to mention that you're arguing over what the meaning of the word "two" is. It says "two skills" grant a Synergy Bonus to one another. End of line.
Why stop? Diplomacy by faking a a Houdini-style escape performance from ropes that you tied the knots in yourself while treading water and keeping the sharks therein at a distance through your body language! (Diplomacy with Synergy from Bluff, Escape Artist, Perform(Act), Use Rope, Swim and Handle Animal)
That's just stupid...
Two skills provide Synergy, which makes it a named bonus (Synergy Bonus).
Besides that, no Synergies in Pathfinder. So no +2 for you...
Please provide the passage that indicates Synergy Bonus is a an actual type of bonus and I'll agree, but it seems the DMG indicates that (on page 21) Synergy is not a type of bonus. The PHB also doesn't indicate a named bonus in any of its descriptions of synergy.
AFAIK Synergy provides unnamed and therefore stacks.
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@PDK, the OP:
Much of my group miss the Synergy bonus as well, but I can't find a way to implement it properly again. It seems that the placement for Synergy is arbitary, and (despite how it seems indicated) I would really prefer the case that Synergy doesn't stack.
Synergy seemed a step toward problematic as well. Skill monkeys always maximized their synergy, while many other players would forget that they exist. It seemed arbitray as well, which can really kill a game session when a player doesn't understand why an NPC got a +2 and suddenly wants to argue about it.
I'm mixed: glad its gone for simplicity, sad its gone because it was fun.
Nero is dead on. It's called a "Synergy Bonus" therefore it is "named". That means it's a named bonus and does not stack by the RAW.
No. There are precisely 18 named bonuses in 3.5:
Ability
Alchemical
Armor
Circumstance
Competence
Deflection
Dodge
Enhancement
Insight
Luck
Morale
Natural Armor
Profane
Racial
Resistance
Racial
Shield
Size
Every other type of bonus is classified as "untyped", and untyped bonuses explicitly stack unless they are from the same identical source. Two separate skills providing a +2 untyped bonus to a third skill are not the exact same source. Thus, synergy bonuses stack.
Note that this was NOT the case in 3.0. In 3.0, Synergy WAS a named type, and thus did not stack. That was changed in 3.5.
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Much of my group miss the Synergy bonus as well, but I can't find a way to implement it properly again. It seems that the placement for Synergy is arbitary, and (despite how it seems indicated) I would really prefer the case that Synergy doesn't stack. ... I'm mixed: glad its gone for simplicity, sad its gone because it was fun.
Easy house rule... If the player can justify why one skill ought to support another, and the GM agrees that it makes sense, allow an Aid Self check (just like Aid Another) with a bonus of +2. Diplomacy with a noble? Knowledge (nobility) might help. Disguised as a tradesman? Profession might help. Etc. [first suggested by Lordzack, I believe]
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Cliff: half the time I agree with you, and half the time I don't due to dead-wrongness factors... you can't pick a line in the PHB and make an essay on it, out of context, if it doesn't make sense or worse, if you know full well it's wrong (perhaps due to the fact that it never came up in your own games?) Basically, hypothetical arguments on rules (past 3.5 rules, no less) are absolutely moot, especially if it's about something that never truly came up during game before. If it did come up, and you implemented that "one synergy only" houserule in your games, then please understand that it was a houserule.
Studpuffin: I hear ya... some of the synergies were cool (I liked them personally, but just as you, did not like that some players were not aware of them... and thus this created more work for me as a DM, to help people get on the same footing power-wise...)
Zurai: as usual, dead on... and thanks for the list! (I am saving this to hard drive, as I believe it might still fully apply to PRPG yes?)
Zurai: as usual, dead on... and thanks for the list! (I am saving this to hard drive, as I believe it might still fully apply to PRPG yes?)
The list is on page 21-22 of the DMG, and in the online SRD. I just borrowed it :) And I actually should have said that there are only 18 types in the SRD; I can't guarantee that there weren't any new types introduced in random splats.
It definitely still applies to PRPG, though. It uses the same stacking rules, and, so far, hasn't changed any of the types.
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other stuff...
Studpuffin: I hear ya... some of the synergies were cool (I liked them personally, but just as you, did not like that some players were not aware of them... and thus this created more work for me as a DM, to help people get on the same footing power-wise...)
Zurai: as usual, dead on... and thanks for the list! (I am saving this to hard drive, as I believe it might still fully apply to PRPG yes?)
The bonuses are listed on page 21 of the DMG, easy to find and conviently described! :D
Good riddance! It was just an uneccesary step in character creation and advancement: Look over that list (or lists, if you used XPH or other books with new skills and new synergies) to look if you have everything, and add +2s and (+2)s (for certain circumstances only) to the skills.
The totals might be a bit lower because of that, but on the other hand, you get more out of Skill Focus (on higher levels at least), and cross-class is better now, so it won't kill that many.
I won't miss the Synergy bonuses. (boni?)
In German (and probably other languages), but not English.
Nero is dead on. It's called a "Synergy Bonus" therefore it is "named". That means it's a named bonus and does not stack by the RAW.
You might call them synergy bonus, and probably a lot of other people, too, but the rules don't.
"It’s possible for a character to have two skills that work well together. In general, having 5 or more ranks in one skill gives the character a +2 bonus on skill checks with each of its synergistic skills, as noted in the skill description."
It's a bonus because of synergy, and you can call them "synergy bonus" colloquially, but the official text don't call them that, and that means they're unnamed bonuses.
Hmm.. okay. i'll buy that.
But still "two skills" is pretty explicit.
Nah. It just means that each synergy is a pairing of two skills, not 2 or more.
That still means that a skill can be part of several pairings.
I can see tumble and jump helping each other, and tumble helping balance, but since balance won't help jump that much, or vice versa, those aren't a tripling, but rather two pairings, both involving tumble.