I think we can agree that adding powers to an item should never make it cheaper (i.e. price should be monotonically increasing as a function of power). But that's not the case with staves because of the phrase "the highest level spell is still priced first, even if it requires more than one charge to activate".
For instance, a CL 10 staff that can cast:
- Charm Monster, 1 charge
would cost 4*10*800 = 32,000 gp
But a CL 10 staff that can cast:
- Charm Monster, 1 charge
- Hold Monster, 10 charges
would cost 5*10*800/10 + 4*10*600 = 28,000 gp
Fixing it is just a matter of saying that the most expensive spell is always priced first (rather than the highest level spell).
I think we can agree that adding powers to an item should never make it cheaper (i.e. price should be monotonically increasing as a function of power). But that's not the case with staves because of the phrase "the highest level spell is still priced first, even if it requires more than one charge to activate".
For instance, a CL 10 staff that can cast:
- Charm Monster, 1 charge
would cost 4*10*800 = 32,000 gpBut a CL 10 staff that can cast:
- Charm Monster, 1 charge
- Hold Monster, 10 charges
would cost 5*10*800/10 + 4*10*600 = 28,000 gpFixing it is just a matter of saying that the most expensive spell is always priced first (rather than the highest level spell).
You would have to expand 5th level slots to recharge the latter instead of 4th level slots to recharge the first.
It it worth the 4000 difference considering that in a pinch you can use a Hold Monster when it's fully charge? Not sure.
Actually, that's a good point. I didn't think of that.
I tried around some staff designs with the Beta staff creation rules and I feel they fill a niche different and useful enought from the wands compared to the 3.5 staves. Especialy in creating medium priced (under 50 000), reusable items.
Will it break something down the road? I can't say, but so far I like it.
Oh, I like the idea of rechargeable staves. I just thought it was strange that adding a new spell can make the price go down. But as you pointed out, a higher level spell does make it a little harder to recharge.
Director of Games
|
Oh, I like the idea of rechargeable staves. I just thought it was strange that adding a new spell can make the price go down. But as you pointed out, a higher level spell does make it a little harder to recharge.
The cost difference is fine in my book. Remember, that you now have to put in 5th level slots to cast charm monster once, a 4th level spell. That is not the greatest tradeoff over the life of the staff.
This is a bit of an extreme example. Can anyone come up with another that might illustrate that this is a problem?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
This is a bit of an extreme example. Can anyone come up with another that might illustrate that this is a problem?
Well, all of the examples are going to be a bit dumb; it's only really noticeable if you have a deeply discounted spell (5+ charges) in your staff.
Here's a more "core" example:
A CL 11 Staff of Life (Heal [1 charge], Raise Dead [5 charges]) costs 109,400 gp (11*6*800 + 11*5*600 + 50*5000/5).
A CL 13 Staff of Slightly Better Life (Heal [1 charge], Raise Dead [heightened to level 7, 5 charges]) would cost 107,720 gp (13*7*800/5 + 11*7*600 + 50*5000/5). On the plus side, it's cheaper and it heals more damage with a charge. On the minus side, it takes somewhat more resources to recharge.
Maybe it's balanced; I don't know. It just seems weird that it gets cheaper.
Here's a more "core" example:
A CL 11 Staff of Life (Heal [1 charge], Raise Dead [5 charges]) costs 109,400 gp (11*6*800 + 11*5*600 + 50*5000/5).A CL 13 Staff of Slightly Better Life (Heal [1 charge], Raise Dead [heightened to level 7, 5 charges]) would cost 107,720 gp (13*7*800/5 + 11*7*600 + 50*5000/5). On the plus side, it's cheaper and it heals more damage with a charge. On the minus side, it takes somewhat more resources to recharge.
Maybe it's balanced; I don't know. It just seems weird that it gets cheaper.
Something wrong with your calculations:
The formula for the "slightly better" one would be:111,360 gp (13*7*800/5 + 13*6*600 + 50*5000/5).
or 14560 + 46800 + 50000
I don't disagree with the change, but I think a limit of 5 charges per use would do the job (it only has 10 charges to begin with).
By the way, you likely wouldn't *have* a Level 10 staff of charm monster - no need to make it higher than level 8. So 8*4*800 = 25600, less than the staff with hold monster.
Something wrong with your calculations:
The formula for the "slightly better" one would be:
111,360 gp (13*7*800/5 + 13*6*600 + 50*5000/5).
or 14560 + 46800 + 50000
Whoops...you're right; I screwed up in several places (the individual calculations and the total).
By the way, you likely wouldn't *have* a Level 10 staff of charm monster - no need to make it higher than level 8. So 8*4*800 = 25600, less than the staff with hold monster.
Sure; I can change the example to a Staff of Fireball [x1] CL 8 (19,200 gp) vs. a Staff of Fireball [x1] + Wall of Fire [x10] CL 8 (16,960 gp) if you prefer that (CL 8 is the minimum caster level for staves).
To me, the most elegant solution is to price the spells in order of expensiveness, but obviously YMMV.
By the way, you likely wouldn't *have* a Level 10 staff of charm monster - no need to make it higher than level 8. So 8*4*800 = 25600, less than the staff with hold monster.Sure; I can change the example to a Staff of Fireball [x1] CL 8 (19,200 gp) vs. a Staff of Fireball [x1] + Wall of Fire [x10] CL 8 (16,960 gp) if you prefer that (CL 8 is the minimum caster level for staves).
To me, the most elegant solution is to price the spells in order of expensiveness, but obviously YMMV.
Yep - those calculations work. I meant to say that I agree in theory at least, I just don't know that it's worth checking the corner cases for. FYI: Wall of Fire (5 charges) = 19520, just over.
An interesting, if just as ridiculous, scenario is Staff of Feel Good: Heal (1), Regenerate (10), Mass Cure Serious Wounds (10) = 43940 gp.
The thing is that if it's a good deal (whether actually reduces or barely increases the price) to add a higher level spell at *800 to drop the Heal price by *200, it'll be an even better deal to add *another* higher spell at *600 to drop the Heal another *200.
If that made no sense, see this:
Primary spell = CL * SL * 800
Secondary = CL * SL * 600
Tertiary and on = CL * SL * 400
Staff of Heal: Heal (1) = 6*11*800 = 52800
Staff of Wound Healing: Mass Cure Serious Wounds (10) = 7*13*800(*1/10)
+ Heal (1) = 6*13*600 = 54080
Staff of Feel Good: Mass Cure Serious Wounds (10) = 7*13*800(*1/10)
+ Regenerate (10) = 7*13*600(*1/10)
+ Heal (1) = 6*13*400 = 43940
Each time the Heal multiplier is dropping by 200 (the 2nd time there is also no increase in the caster level). Since the price of the effect added the second time is less, there is a lower price increase, and actually a price drop.
But all this is crazy examples that should never be allowed.
All in all, leaving it as is, with a brief "unless a lower level spell is more costly due to modifiers" would probably more than do the job.