The intelligent item rules are a step backwards, IMO.
First, some of the powers are way too cheap. In particular, I'm thinking about a talking intelligent item with 120' blindsense for 4,000 gp. That pretty much ruins the ability to sneak up on the party (hey, it's a construct, so it never sleeps, never takes a lunch break, etc.). Likewise, the ability to give a magic item the spell Guidance at will costs 1,500 gp; that sounds too cheap for a +1 insight bonus to whatever you want each round.
Second, the low price for intelligent items and the ability for items to activate themselves makes for a powerful combination. Specifically, I'm thinking of staves that activate themselves; that's an extra "free" spell every round, if you want. Other at-will abilities are just as bad. For instance, giving a magic item the ability to cast a 4th level spell at will (as a special purpose power) costs 56,000 gp. That sounds like a lot, but imagine spamming Evard's Black Tentacles or Dimension Door all day (all long as it's for a good cause).
Thoughts? I liked the old intelligent item rules better (it required 15th level caster to make an intelligent item, for starters).
The intelligent item rules are a step backwards, IMO.
First, some of the powers are way too cheap. In particular, I'm thinking about a talking intelligent item with 120' blindsense for 4,000 gp. That pretty much ruins the ability to sneak up on the party (hey, it's a construct, so it never sleeps, never takes a lunch break, etc.). Likewise, the ability to give a magic item the spell Guidance at will costs 1,500 gp; that sounds too cheap for a +1 insight bonus to whatever you want each round.
Second, the low price for intelligent items and the ability for items to activate themselves makes for a powerful combination. Specifically, I'm thinking of staves that activate themselves; that's an extra "free" spell every round, if you want. Other at-will abilities are just as bad. For instance, giving a magic item the ability to cast a 4th level spell at will (as a special purpose power) costs 56,000 gp. That sounds like a lot, but imagine spamming Evard's Black Tentacles or Dimension Door all day (all long as it's for a good cause).
Thoughts? I liked the old intelligent item rules better (it required 15th level caster to make an intelligent item, for starters).
I posted a similar thread at almost the same time you did Hogarth. I agree that if items can do these things, the cost needs to be much higher.
Director of Games
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There are some issues floating around in here that need to be addressed. Blindsense is undoubtedly one of them. Being able to cast a 4th level spell at will for 56K is not (that is a mountain of money for a 4th level spell at will... good, but not overly good). Items activating themselves probably needs an adjustment.
I am open to other thoughts...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
((I am going to lock the other, identical thread))
There are some issues floating around in here that need to be addressed. Blindsense is undoubtedly one of them. Being able to cast a 4th level spell at will for 56K is not (that is a mountain of money for a 4th level spell at will... good, but not overly good). Items activating themselves probably needs an adjustment.
Just to clarify, I specifically meant items activating 4th level spells "at will", not "at will" items in general (although those can be a headache, too; compare a 56K Wings of Flying to a 56K item that can cast Extended Fly "at will" on the whole party).
Just to clarify, I specifically meant items activating 4th level spells "at will", not "at will" items in general (although those can be a headache, too; compare a 56K Wings of Flying to a 56K item that can cast Extended Fly "at will" on the whole party).
Hogarth has a good point. At will spellcasting can be pretty powerful, so the costs need to reflect the benefit. Maybe the catch that the item has be used in pursuit of it's special purpose is enough of balancing point, but I'm thinking it isn't.
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Hogarth has a good point. At will spellcasting can be pretty powerful, so the costs need to reflect the benefit. Maybe the catch that the item has be used in pursuit of it's special purpose is enough of balancing point, but I'm thinking it isn't.
Too vague, at will needs to be balanced with something like "in combat with it's enemy", otherwise 3/day.
I feel that Intelligent Items should be dealt with more as "Unique" items than "just another" cost-factored Item Quality, and that they should always be played as an NPC BY THE DM, according to the item's own motivations, not acting as an extension of the PC owning it. Alignments are always the crutch of D&D, but what if your Intelligent Stave is LAZY? Or thinks it's smarter than everyone and is unhelpful or reticent? Or harbors bizarre racial hatreds (that are not always appropriate)?
The item should not necessarily always be aware of the same things that the PC is, for instance, and vice versa. An intelligent item with such a rich "personality" (necessitating active DM involvement) just seems much less problematic than these hypothetical mockups which seem to ignore the unique Being embodied in the Intelligent Item, but treat it only as extra powers which don't interfere with the wielder's normal actions.
If nuances such as these are addressed, and perhaps even the source and nature of the Intelligences commonly found in these Items was touched upon, I think it would be helpful. An item SHOULD be able to establish a "working relationship" with it's latest wielder, but that process can be an adventure in itself, and could perhaps always be limited to certain aims.
See, I really like intelligent items. I've given relatively low level intelligent weapons out as treasure. And, had the party hate the weapon, despite it being quite low ego. It happened to like being in the service of lawful outsiders, being the trapped essence of a formian worker. It even gained experience and was able to advance itself as an NPC (expert) by accomplishing goals in line with its motivation. I have had one of the epic artifacts in my campaign be an intelligent magic item with many levels of sorceror, and the Still Spell and Eschew Materials feats in 3.5.
Like Quandary, I think what is critical is that, when you awaken an item to intelligence, you are taking a calculated risk that the motivation of the item be somewhat aligned with the motivation of the PCs. Plus, the item will have a personality and goals entirely distinct from what the PC may have wanted. GMs who try to shorthand this will end up with the same piles of broken that can occur with Cohorts, Bound or Allied outsiders, or other player associated NPCs. Coincidentally, the same basic fix works for all of the above. If player associated NPCs are treated as NPCs and run by the GM, then what seems off actually works okay.
I feel that Intelligent Items should be dealt with more as "Unique" items than "just another" cost-factored Item Quality, and that they should always be played as an NPC BY THE DM, according to the item's own motivations, not acting as an extension of the PC owning it. Alignments are always the crutch of D&D, but what if your Intelligent Stave is LAZY? Or thinks it's smarter than everyone and is unhelpful or reticent? Or harbors bizarre racial hatreds (that are not always appropriate)?
The item should not necessarily always be aware of the same things that the PC is, for instance, and vice versa. An intelligent item with such a rich "personality" (necessitating active DM involvement) just seems much less problematic than these hypothetical mockups which seem to ignore the unique Being embodied in the Intelligent Item, but treat it only as extra powers which don't interfere with the wielder's normal actions.
If nuances such as these are addressed, and perhaps even the source and nature of the Intelligences commonly found in these Items was touched upon, I think it would be helpful. An item SHOULD be able to establish a "working relationship" with it's latest wielder, but that process can be an adventure in itself, and could perhaps always be limited to certain aims.
This is how I've always portrayed intelligent items in my campaign, as a living breathing entity with feelings, quirks and motivations. Once I had a paladin player who's sword held the soul of his former master, a stern, no-nonsense and righteous man much to the dismay of the party rogue who liked to sneak around doing illicit work while the rest of the party slept. Another time I had a villain which actually was an intelligent Rod of lordly might bent on world conquest, when the pc's found it the rod tricked the player's into doing the dirty work for it, it took ten levels before they realized they had been set up by the rod all along.
I agree that intelligent magic items are really cool...when the DM inserts an interesting one into the game.
What I don't like is the idea of any low-level character being able to make one for cheap. In particular, a PC can easily minimize the "colorful" side of an intelligent item (e.g. it has a low ego, it only has empathy so it doesn't get to talk, etc.) which is half the fun!
It should never be a case of "hey, it's only 500 gp to make this headband/belt/sword intelligent -- why not?" IMO, of course.
...In particular, a PC can easily minimize the "colorful" side of an intelligent item (e.g. it has a low ego, it only has empathy so it doesn't get to talk, etc.) which is half the fun!
It should never be a case of "hey, it's only 500 gp to make this headband/belt/sword intelligent -- why not?" IMO, of course.
I'm still of the opinion that even a low ego, empathetic intelligent item can wreak havoc, whether the PCs realize it or not. A lot of the problem comes from PCs picking options ala carte for allied NPCs, whether they are cohorts, intelligent items, or called outsiders. This problem is handled most efficiently, IMHO, by taking the control and ala carte nature of RAW, and removing it. Even a relatively dumb intelligent spear can ruin the PCs day by casting light at the wrong time.
For intelligent items, I would say the PC doesn't get to pick the purpose, or special abilities, or even the exact stats of the item. Spending 500 gp on awakening an item should mean that the GM gets to decide what happens upon awakening the item, within the 500gp limit. An empathic or pulsing item might decide it has a whole different set of priorities than the adventurer who awakened it.
I agree that intelligent magic items are really cool...when the DM inserts an interesting one into the game.
What I don't like is the idea of any low-level character being able to make one for cheap. In particular, a PC can easily minimize the "colorful" side of an intelligent item (e.g. it has a low ego, it only has empathy so it doesn't get to talk, etc.) which is half the fun!
It should never be a case of "hey, it's only 500 gp to make this headband/belt/sword intelligent -- why not?" IMO, of course.
Perhaps player characters shouldn't be able to create intelligent items, it could be some kind of template that can be applied to items, effectively making the original item a minor artifact.