Armor quality Invulnerability - too weak

[JoelF847]

At a +3 equivilent ability that grants DR 5/magic, it's pretty underpowered, since most enemies you'll be fighting can ignore it. The cheapest you can get this power is on a +4 equivilent armor, which sells for 16K more than the MW version. Comparing to the adamantine price for heavy armor of 15K, which grants 3/- DR, I'd suggest that changing the invulnerability quality to 5/adamantium would be a much better fit for the price. The numeric part of the DR is higher than that granted by adamantium, but it can be overcome. Would that be more balanced for the price?

[Etales]

JoelF847 wrote:

At a +3 equivilent ability that grants DR 5/magic, it's pretty underpowered, since most enemies you'll be fighting can ignore it. The cheapest you can get this power is on a +4 equivilent armor, which sells for 16K more than the MW version. Comparing to the adamantine price for heavy armor of 15K, which grants 3/- DR, I'd suggest that changing the invulnerability quality to 5/adamantium would be a much better fit for the price. The numeric part of the DR is higher than that granted by adamantium, but it can be overcome. Would that be more balanced for the price?

I agree,

for the price point Invulnerability is not worth it.
Really,
*/Magic is almost never useful in my opinion.

[tasslehoff220]

Etales wrote:

JoelF847 wrote:

At a +3 equivilent ability that grants DR 5/magic, it's pretty underpowered, since most enemies you'll be fighting can ignore it. The cheapest you can get this power is on a +4 equivilent armor, which sells for 16K more than the MW version. Comparing to the adamantine price for heavy armor of 15K, which grants 3/- DR, I'd suggest that changing the invulnerability quality to 5/adamantium would be a much better fit for the price. The numeric part of the DR is higher than that granted by adamantium, but it can be overcome. Would that be more balanced for the price?

I agree,

for the price point Invulnerability is not worth it.
Really,
*/Magic is almost never useful in my opinion.

As a gm I really disagree. I put my players up against alot of creatures that don't beat DR/ magic but virtually none that beat adamantine. Only creatures using weapons and dragons typically swing magic. Most aberations, undead, demons, and devils do not (some of the most popular monsters). Not to mention that no plants, animals, or constructs swing magic. Some undead swing magic or have magic weapons but most don't. Demons and devils swing evil but not magic (except for balors) Most of their weapons are non magical. Seriously, while I am sure youll be able to find exceptions, there are alot more in the other way. Magical beasts (despite the name) do not often swing magic. Sladdi don't. The point of it being magic is that there are so many things that don't swing magic but it is still beatable. Adamantine is really rare and if you start fighting alot of creatures with adamantine weapons, well then there is no point in it being adamantine in the first place then. The other great thing about invulnerable armor is that you can have it on light armor. Not everyone wears full plate. A barbarian or rogue could have invulnerable armor but adamantine woudl not work well for either.

[Eric Stipe]

Etales wrote:

Really, */Magic is almost never useful in my opinion.

unless your killing peasents, and who doesn't enjoy a good peasent kill. ;)

[Thraxus]

tasslehoff220 wrote:

As a gm I really disagree.

While your arguement is accurate, many adventures make use of mid to high level NPCs (including monsters with class levels) that will be equipped with magical weapons.

From my experience DR/magic is useful, but it will rarely help when fighting NPC opponents. For the price, while not useless, it is not exactly useful either.

[DM_Blake]

From another perspective, by the time you should realistically be wearing +4 armor (e.g. +1 Invulnerable), how many monsters will be really slowed down by a DR of 5 anyway?

And how many other armor abilities at +3 or less might be more useful?

How many times will someone find +1 Invulnerable armor in a monster's hoard and the first thing they say will be "Sweet! I can trade this in for that suit of +4 armor I've been wanting!"?

Yeah, yeah, if you're playing with no "magic shoppe" then they use what they get.

Otherwise, I think this one usually ends up in the pawn shop.

[Jason Bulmahn]

Although I think this ability is useful across many levels, its value does drop off against NPCs and some monsters. It might only be worth a +2 enhancement, with a greater version at +4...

As of yet, I am unconvinced either way.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

[tasslehoff220]

Thraxus wrote:

tasslehoff220 wrote:

As a gm I really disagree.

While your arguement is accurate, many adventures make use of mid to high level NPCs (including monsters with class levels) that will be equipped with magical weapons.

From my experience DR/magic is useful, but it will rarely help when fighting NPC opponents. For the price, while not useless, it is not exactly useful either.

While you are right that it will not work against most high level NPCs its not supposed to work all the time. Otherwise it would be 5/-. I can see the argument for it being weak but I would say that making it a +2 enhancement makes it way too strong. There are just way to many monsters which do not have a way to beat it. I would find a game where I only fight NPCs boring. All the GM's I have played with like using elemental and outsiders and undead and plants etc for their encounters. Not only that but they will also usually have a decent number if not all of the mid level and minion NPCs use MW or mundane weapons rather than magic if for no other reason than otherwise they are giving away a huge amount of magic. Except for dragons and a few other creatures, if you DR is being beaten, then you get magic items from the encounter. Now I am not saying this is over powered or even one of the best +3 armor enhancements, but its definitely good and making it more powerful seems to me that it would be a mistake.

[Abraham spalding]

I would suggest a scaling form of this enhancement.

+ 1 = damage reduction 5/magic
+ 3 = damage reduction 5/adamantine
+ 5 = damage reduction 5/- (stacks with adamantine)

magic is so common that it really isn't worth more than a +2 bonus... heck a first level wizard spell will last for hours/level per casting and overturn a +3 enhancement bonus effect.

at + 3 it can still be overturned, by either a +4 weapon, or an actual adamantine weapon. This means it will be useful still, but high end challenges for the PC's will still ignore it (instead of just everyone ignoring it).

The + 5 version would still be generally useful, however +5 weapons will still bypass the DR meaning it's not an automatic pass everytime.

[Etales]

tasslehoff220 wrote:

Etales wrote:

JoelF847 wrote:

At a +3 equivilent ability that grants DR 5/magic, it's pretty underpowered, since most enemies you'll be fighting can ignore it. The cheapest you can get this power is on a +4 equivilent armor, which sells for 16K more than the MW version. Comparing to the adamantine price for heavy armor of 15K, which grants 3/- DR, I'd suggest that changing the invulnerability quality to 5/adamantium would be a much better fit for the price. The numeric part of the DR is higher than that granted by adamantium, but it can be overcome. Would that be more balanced for the price?

I agree,

for the price point Invulnerability is not worth it.
Really,
*/Magic is almost never useful in my opinion.

As a gm I really disagree. I put my players up against alot of creatures that don't beat DR/ magic but virtually none that beat adamantine. Only creatures using weapons and dragons typically swing magic. Most aberations, undead, demons, and devils do not (some of the most popular monsters). Not to mention that no plants, animals, or constructs swing magic. Some undead swing magic or have magic weapons but most don't. Demons and devils swing evil but not magic (except for balors) Most of their weapons are non magical. Seriously, while I am sure youll be able to find exceptions, there are alot more in the other way. Magical beasts (despite the name) do not often swing magic. Sladdi don't. The point of it being magic is that there are so many things that don't swing magic but it is still beatable. Adamantine is really rare and if you start fighting alot of creatures with adamantine weapons, well then there is no point in it being adamantine in the first place then. The other great thing about invulnerable armor is that you can have it on light armor. Not everyone wears full plate. A barbarian or rogue could have invulnerable armor but adamantine woudl not work well for either.

Tasslehoff220, I respect your input.

this is from the Damage reduction secion of the SRD:

Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

So if the monster has DR/Magic is is a magic weapon with it's natural attacks. There are a lot of monsters with DR/magic. I seem to remember something about Monster Hit dice counting toward magic weapons but, I may be cross-editioning.

[tasslehoff220]

"Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."

Actually, this is something I specifically had in mind when I posted. This is why I said it wouldnt defend against dragons but would against many other things such as plants and animals (which never have DR/magic), outsiders (which have DR/alighnment or metal or both, although there are a few with magic weapons most do not have magic weapons), constructs (DR/adamantine), magical beasts (ironically rarely have DR/magic), giants (typically use nonmagical weapons or their fists), NPCs (which if your GM only is putting you up against NPCs with magic weapons your party's treasure level is going to skyrocket). Thus it usually works, and is relatively cheap (I always though +3 enhancements on armor were cheap, not so much with weapons). It isn't supposed to work all the time, similarly to how the weapon enhancements are not expected to work all the time but 5 points of DR is really awesome. You can be immune to things which do a little damage multiple times, and lots of extra hit-points in other cases. I have always been of the inpression that if you don't the enhancement, you shouldn't take it (not meant to sound rude if it does) but I know lots of people who find it quite worthwhile.