The claw damage seems a bit strong to me. With two claws you've got a sorcerer who can naturally attack with the equivalent of two short swords! A 1d4 attack for medium seems more consistent to me. That's the equivalent of a black bear's claw attack. You could instead make it 1d3 for small, 1d6 for large.
|
The claw damage seems a bit strong to me. With two claws you've got a sorcerer who can naturally attack with the equivalent of two short swords! A 1d4 attack for medium seems more consistent to me. That's the equivalent of a black bear's claw attack. You could instead make it 1d3 for small, 1d6 for large.
This will be a problem for roughly 37 minutes before the sorcerer's poor BAB renders him incapable of hitting anything at all. I had a player in Age of Worms specialize in touch spells and the claws from his Draconic feats. It was only a few levels before he bagged that entirely and started dumping all his spells into Draconic Breath.
The only problem I see with good damage on the claws is that it might trick sorcerer players into thinking they can actually hurt anything with them.
The claw damage seems a bit strong to me. With two claws you've got a sorcerer who can naturally attack with the equivalent of two short swords! A 1d4 attack for medium seems more consistent to me. That's the equivalent of a black bear's claw attack. You could instead make it 1d3 for small, 1d6 for large.This will be a problem for roughly 37 minutes before the sorcerer's poor BAB renders him incapable of hitting anything at all. I had a player in Age of Worms specialize in touch spells and the claws from his Draconic feats. It was only a few levels before he bagged that entirely and started dumping all his spells into Draconic Breath.
The only problem I see with good damage on the claws is that it might trick sorcerer players into thinking they can actually hurt anything with them.
It's fun flavor.
But Take it from this prospective.
4 levels of sorceror, 1 level of fighter, 10 levels of eldritch knight, 5 levels of dragon disciple , Those claws aren't useless anymore and effectively it's given the character a free two weapon fighting feat.
I think a sorc who wants to specialize in touch attacks would be built like above, not 20 levels of sorc. But as soon as the sorc would stop hitting things (around 4th level) he goes fighter and then eldritch knight and he can start keeping up again, by the time he's Done with EK and going into DD, hes all about touch attacks strenght and power.
I think they need to drop the free 2nd claw attack (although if they keep it I certainly won't complain)
I think the reason the sorc gets the free 2nd attack is because its naturaly weapons like a cat, and any of those animals usually get claw claw bite.
Even if the Sorc does go the way Pen suggests (which is a good OGL PFRPG build) if he only sticks to using his claws he'll only ever have two~three attacks on a full attack action (3 if hasted 2 if not) becuase you don't gain intertive attacks with natural weapons.
If the sorcerer switches to Weapon/Claw this class feature basically becomes a free two weapon fighting feat (that can only be used with a specific secondary weapon).
Besides the sorcerer would still be much better off using spells than wasting time trying to scratch something.
The ability I was slightly (and only slightly) worried about was the aberrant reach from the aberrant bloodline. But even that isn't so amazing (afterall you still have to get way too close to use them).
Even if the Sorc does go the way Pen suggests (which is a good OGL PFRPG build) if he only sticks to using his claws he'll only ever have two~three attacks on a full attack action (3 if hasted 2 if not) becuase you don't gain intertive attacks with natural weapons.
If the sorcerer switches to Weapon/Claw this class feature basically becomes a free two weapon fighting feat (that can only be used with a specific secondary weapon).
Besides the sorcerer would still be much better off using spells than wasting time trying to scratch something.
The ability I was slightly (and only slightly) worried about was the aberrant reach from the aberrant bloodline. But even that isn't so amazing (afterall you still have to get way too close to use them).
The abberant ability was meant to deliver touch spells, but I found a familiar does this job better (with deliver touch spells)
But now that sorcerors dont GET familiars..... hmmmmm.One other question,anyone know how seltyiel turns his bat familiar into a flamming lil' demon bat (iconic picture) I was thinking perhaps using bat familar to deliver burning hands spell?
Wizards should be given better ability at lower levels to augment familiar by the way.
The sorc claws and the abberant reach and acid darts and all that other stuff is really only given to arcane spell casters to make levels 1-3 a little more well something.
Claws work good at that level.
Heck at levels 1-5 the sorceress was our best archer (lots a dex)
My complaint isn't that the damage is unbalancing, it's really only about 1 extra point of damage on average. I'm guessing they made them 1d6 instead of 1d4 so they would compare with the 1d6 ranged touch attacks some other bloodlines get.
My complaint is more about consistency. I just don't think claws on a medium creature should be 1d6, they should be 1d4 at best. That would be consistent with what monsters have and more consistent with similar weapon damage.
My complaint isn't that the damage is unbalancing, it's really only about 1 extra point of damage on average. I'm guessing they made them 1d6 instead of 1d4 so they would compare with the 1d6 ranged touch attacks some other bloodlines get.
My complaint is more about consistency. I just don't think claws on a medium creature should be 1d6, they should be 1d4 at best. That would be consistent with what monsters have and more consistent with similar weapon damage.
"dragon claws" have been 1d6 (on medium humanoids) since Dragon disciple and Race of the dragon (at least) and certainly aren't "new" to pathfinder.
Additionally you are looking at a magical enhancement and not just sharp nails.
Also dragon claws on your hands need to do more damage than a simple punch.
I, also, think the 1d6 for claws is a bit much. Those are big honkin' claws! Even lizard folk do 1d4. Plus the fact that they can get two attacks at first level with them...
Maybe they can grow as the character does. 1d4 at 1st level then 1d6 at 10th and a d8 at 15th (where it should be capped).
Just my opinion...
"dragon claws" have been 1d6 (on medium humanoids) since Dragon disciple and Race of the dragon (at least) and certainly aren't "new" to pathfinder.
The 3.5 Dragon Disciple has claws that do 1d4 damage.
My personal pet peeve is that a level 1 sorcerer with claws is better at unarmed fighting than a level 1 monk doing a flurry of blows. It just seems like an insult to the monk.
I, also, think the 1d6 for claws is a bit much. Those are big honkin' claws! Even lizard folk do 1d4. Plus the fact that they can get two attacks at first level with them...
Maybe they can grow as the character does. 1d4 at 1st level then 1d6 at 10th and a d8 at 15th (where it should be capped).
Just my opinion...
Yea my bad, it's Races of the Dragon, where you get the 1d6 claws...theres a reason why I hated that book.
I feel the draconic blood line took everything good out of that book and left everything bad behind.
Look at it this way, the arcane classes the rogue and the ranger got HD bumps.
So we are already a little up from the 3.5 status quo (also I dont agree with the Dragon disciple getting d12 HD, dragons themselves dnt have d12 HD...but whatever)
and I think OP hit it on the head, everyother blood line and school is getting a 1d6 all day long ability, this one happens to have no range, so its actually worse, AND it's not a touch attack, it actually has to go through AC (so it's even worse still) compared to energy blast or acid dart, its kinda lame!
Look at it this way, the arcane classes the rogue and the ranger got HD bumps.
So we are already a little up from the 3.5 status quo (also I dont agree with the Dragon disciple getting d12 HD, dragons themselves dnt have d12 HD...but whatever)
Actually, Dragons do have d12 HDs (see the SRD, or the Monster Manual). But I agree with you, a Dragon Disciple should not have the same HD of a 'True' Dragon... d10 should suffice (IMHO).
An Half-Dragon (for example) doesn't have a d12, his racial HD is simply boosted by 1 step - there are no boosts to Class HD for an Half Dragon. Why a PrC that gives an 'Half-Half Dragon' Template should provide a better HD ?
Just my 2c.
Meh. I think I've also critizized the claws as a class feature, but for very different reasons.
And the thread displays most of the reasons. It's not about the claws. The claws themselves are ridicolous, because Melee Combat is something you probably won't do much with the Sorcerer. AC shoudl keep you from doing it.
The problem I see is, that the claws are not a defining feature for the sorcerer itself. They don't force her to behave in certain ways - they just open combinations for later play. And there the claws also are not important by themselves but as means for more attacks it seems. (Though at the moment I fail to see how exactly that is going to work and help and be a big advantage).
I wouldn't say the claws themselves are too pwoerful or too weak - they are just wrong and make you end up in a dead end.
I am currently playing a draconic sorcerer in the Crimson Throne module. And I have to say that the claws are pretty irrelevant for just about anything except flavor so far. I have a STR14, and do indeed do as much damage as any of the melee combatants when forced. But what kind of self-respecting arcane caster trades in his spellcasting for a mediocre bout of melee? I am far more efficient with my sleep spell and keeping would be attackers at bay with my Glaive, which I got from my human martial weapon proficiency.
And as for "abusing" it with a specialized "gish" build: Go ahead and try. If you pour that much effort into becoming a mediocre arcane casting melee combatant with a cap of three melee strikes a round, then you and I have a very different view of what is a good build. Touch attack based stat-reducing spells have taken a blow in pathfinder, and can no longer disable people. I would be much more worried about the aforementioned build if the dragon disciple was replaced with abjurant champion, and you gave the character a greatsword and thus twice the attacks and at LEAST twice the damage. Not to mention the far superior AC.
Generally, people resorting to the nerf-bat because something CAN be abused makes me wonder if some of my fellow DM's out there is in need of a spine-transplant. We still have the power of "No. That is stupid." if someone tries to abuse a open rule.
And this is still in the beginning phase. There are always worries about balance. I remember the screaming outrage of how "absurdly overpowered" sneak attack was when 3.0 first came out...
And this is still in the beginning phase. There are always worries about balance. I remember the screaming outrage of how "absurdly overpowered" sneak attack was when 3.0 first came out...
Some people still thinks it is....
And this is still in the beginning phase. There are always worries about balance. I remember the screaming outrage of how "absurdly overpowered" sneak attack was when 3.0 first came out...Some people still thinks it is....
ah well now that i actually understand sneak attack itis absurdly overpowerd.
But ill still be house ruling it like old backstab.
But back to claws...It seems to me, from the way things are written between the draconic bloodline and the Dragon disciple that they are sort of meant to go together, In fact you cant even BE a DD without the draconic sorceror bloodline. It says you have to take it.
I have never never never seen or played a DD up until this playtest we are doing ( I always thought it was lame before as I did bascially almost all the PrCs)
Seems to me, (IMO) if one wants to make claws USEFUL perhaps this should be something SAVED if a draconic sorceror decides to take the DD route (therefor gaining them at LV 1 DD.
Then Let the Draco-Sorc blood line take a ranged touch attack of the energy type they choose for hertiage as heir 1d6 plus level damage thingy at first level.
But let it grow/be replaced by the breath weapon feature at later laevels.
I think something similar could be introduced to all the blood lines and schools.
The purpose for the 1d6 plus level freebie is so arcane casters can DO something in every encounter at lower levels without giving them immense freebies at higher levels.
BUT what if it is replaced at higher levels with something limited by uses per day or extra spell slots (something they can use) at higher levels.
For the draconic character energy bolts morphing (growing/evolving) into more powerful dragon breath with ore limited uses per day makes sense,
But Im sure Jason/James could think tank up other ways to make the other bloodline/school freebie "pews pews" grow into the charater without giving them unlimted fireballs. (or whatever)
i think every sorcerer will take draconic blooline to get the draconic disciple PrC its there only hope
all others will find a cliff and jump
That would weaken the ability of a bloodline less interesting. If someone wants to take levels in this class, then to fight claws makes his character is more unique. Even if it levels Fighter for example, lose claw's development - balance maintained. I am strongly against weakening - at most you can remove the benefit of TWF.
Well IF you want to take dragon disciple, you pretty much HAVE to take the draconic bloodline as a sorceror.
It's bascally set up that way.
I don't understand the above post about weakening? Is taking claws away weakening? Or is making claws 1d4 instead of 1d6 weakening.
I looks at the claws this way:
I don't need to hold a weapon, Sheath, unsheath, drop, pickup, or even be without a weapon. I can get an amulet of mighty fists (all the way up to +5) to compensate for some of my lack of BAB and give it more damage, And I can augment it with spells like burning hands/shocking grasp or vampiric touch.
I think the claws make a touch mage feasible.
10 levels of dragon disciple gives you +7 BAB, levels of sorceror gives you +5 BAB, so you are at 12/7/2.
The last one +2 isnt going to hit anything anyway. so you arent really "missing out" with the whole "only two attack with claws" issue.
Also, You are better off going the haste route anyway.
You can also do thing like cast quickened true strike, and have feats like arcane strike (stacks with amulet of mighty fists or not?) to make the build more feasible.
So assuming you can stack arcane strike with amulet of mighty fists, you could have a BAB or 22 without the quickened true strike.
Plus you can do all those touch attack spells in combos, Kinda cool.
Also going dragon disciple you are still at caster level 17, plus you get str and AC mods.
I dont think a claws sorceror is truely all that useless,andcertainly would work out better than a sorceror with a glaive in the long run.
We're playtesting that sorc/DD right now.
Personally if anything I HATE dragon breath way more than dragon claws.
Also doesnt the demonic (abyssal) blood line get claws too?
Actually you can still take the Bard class as an in to the DD, which can be of great benefit for the bard, especially if you want to have a slightly more frontline fighter than the sorcerer/DD. Of course you still pay for this in spellcasting ability, however you do get your casting in armor.
Actually you can still take the Bard class as an in to the DD, which can be of great benefit for the bard, especially if you want to have a slightly more frontline fighter than the sorcerer/DD. Of course you still pay for this in spellcasting ability, however you do get your casting in armor.
Yea,
I've always seen the bard "spontaneous casting" as a loophole....
Never really liked the feel of it.
the bard is supposed to be all knowledgey and legendy-lorey, does lots of research, trades stories and poems and songs as he travles, all this seem more written down-like to me, always though THAT was the reason Bards got spells at all (they studied and read almost as much as wizards) I dont like spontaneous casting for them.
I think Bard fits even less with the DD, his spells aren't very synergetic, although I suppose if you just take Buffs, and concentrate as a self buffing fighty type, well It could be different.
I see something like the sorc/dd as a reason for touch spells existing, otherwise.....WHY man? WHY!
bard/dd you would loose a whole lot of synergy from both classes. I think it's a dead end.
Some one want to try play tetsting one? (count me out)
More than anything I do, for a gish type the bard/dd is great.
On the plus side:
1. Better BAB than the sorcerer
2. More skills than the sorcerer (including the class bonus to tumble)
3. Better Saves than the sorcerer (Will + Ref Bard, Fort + will DD)
4. Better HP
5. Self healing (healing is very limited in usefulness, however it is there)
6. Better spell selection (the DD vastly improves the bards spell selection, and offers choices they normally wouldn't have)
7. Armored casting (improves survivability along with the natural armor benefits from the dd)
8. Inspire Courage for self (an extra + 2 to hit and damage that will stack with self buffing, in addition to the stat boosts from dd help make up for the small hit to BAB)
9. Bonus feats (something everyone can use, and bards more than others)
On the down side:
1. Spell progression is slowed (if you are relying on spells to do your work for you it's not going to be so good)
2. Slight hit to BAB (at level six you will only be + 3 BAB instead of +4)
More than anything I do, for a gish type the bard/dd is great.
On the plus side:
6. Better spell selection (the DD vastly improves the bards spell selection, and offers choices they normally wouldn't have)
Wait a minute, how does the DD vastly improve the Bards Spell selection? You only get +1 to your caster level each level indicated, where does the better spell selection come from? What am I missing?
The bloodline bonus spells. For a bard this will add mage armor, resist energy, fly, and fear to his list of spells known.
While mage armor is of questionable worth, resist energy, and fly are diffinently nice spells to have, and fear can be very nice too, if more limited.
At level 9 of dd, fly becomes much less valuable for personal use, but could still be nice for your fighter friend, and is still a free extra spell known.
It really comes down to what you want out of your bard. If you want to enchant, charm and dominate people (you should have played an enchanter wizard) then the prestige class isn't for you. However if you want an arcane frontline type, a bard/dd is a much better choice than a sorcerer/dd.
All told by itself dd will give you:
Natural armor + 5 (+ 3 PrC, + 2 Draconic bloodline)
1d8 claws (magic)
Blindsense 60 ft
Flight
Breath weapon 2/day
Mage Armor, Resist energy, fly, fear
At miminum 3 bonus feats (depends on what exactly blood of the dragon class feature gives you, it states specifically the spells and powers, doesn't explictly state one way or the other on bonus feats)
+ 4 str
+ 2 con
+ 2 int
7 levels of casting
spell like ability 2/day
The bloodline bonus spells. For a bard this will add mage armor, resist energy, fly, and fear to his list of spells known.
While mage armor is of questionable worth, resist energy, and fly are diffinently nice spells to have, and fear can be very nice too, if more limited.
At level 9 of dd, fly becomes much less valuable for personal use, but could still be nice for your fighter friend, and is still a free extra spell known.
It really comes down to what you want out of your bard. If you want to enchant, charm and dominate people (you should have played an enchanter wizard) then the prestige class isn't for you. However if you want an arcane frontline type, a bard/dd is a much better choice than a sorcerer/dd.
All told by itself dd will give you:
Natural armor + 5 (+ 3 PrC, + 2 Draconic bloodline)
1d8 claws (magic)
Blindsense 60 ft
Flight
Breath weapon 2/day
Mage Armor, Resist energy, fly, fear
At miminum 3 bonus feats (depends on what exactly blood of the dragon class feature gives you, it states specifically the spells and powers, doesn't explictly state one way or the other on bonus feats)
+ 4 str
+ 2 con
+ 2 int
7 levels of casting
spell like ability 2/day
Yes. Readng it again wth the bard in mind, it seems to be written very sloppy , concerning the bard that floats around outside the "envelope" for the prestige class.
It's kind of like having a barbarian or ranger as a eldritch knight instead of a fighter, But WORSE.I still vote for a removal of the bard as a "spontaneous" spell caster, as it never made sense why he was to begin with... but whatever.
The bard casting in armor is easily replicated with arcane armor training, and there is the trade off for sorc spells with lower BAB and Bard spells with higher BAB.
The bards spells arent as sueful or broad combatively as the sorc.
The bard already gets weapons better than claws.
The bard really only gets a 14/9/4 instead of a 12/7/2 but doesnt have the touch attack spells or some of the other spells available to the sorc to make the whole claw thing work good.
I think the bard is better off staying bard that breaking off to chase after DD...
And thats ODD I never noticed the bard didnt get FEAR as a spell, Why the heck NOT? They SHOULD.
Ever since making the bard a core class it has been written so poorly, someone should be hung by their thumbs and flogged for that!
Heck I think the Bard would make abetter rogue PrC with all its goodies crushed into 10 levels of PrC than it makes a good core class!
But anyway, I dont see how the Bard with a DD PrC would do very well with the claws feature... and claws still might be something you want to keep in the PrC instead of the core bloodline...But then you'd need to change abyssal blood line too.
I dont see that happeneing (or making a Fiendish Disciple PrC for that blood line).
Although this discussion wants me to try a tiefling sorceror with the abyssal blood line now!
Well the bard isn't sloppy, they put it together they way they did on purpose.
Remember this draco-bard is going to be able to front line now with HP, his saves means he'll be good at sluffing off effects, and he has just the right spells to clean up the fighter if he fails a save. Also he needs to be up close to opponent's and friends alike if he is going to use his bardic music to good effect, and said bardic music will improve that +14 to +16, then include the benefits of buffing.
There was another thread up in the prestige class section where me and someone else went over this too, they were working on DD type prestige classes for each bloodline.
Personally I don't think a prestige class should limit out other base classes. After all the more we make it a "you must be this and this class to get this" the more prestige classes we need to cover situations like the barbarian/sorcerer spell rager type. Right now that can be some what covered with the eldritch knight, if EK was fighter only though this wouldn't be possible, if someone wanted to be creative and have a spell raging type of character they would either have to just multiclass, or make a new prestige class.
I dont think the Bard is sloppy (well I do just not in this case) its how DD is written concerning the bard.
DD is clearly written for the Draco blood line sorc.
Why not a Druid/DD?
This is probably a discussion for the DD PrC board.
As for Claws, I dont see the Bard benefitting much from having them?
The claws probably not so much, as you pointed out they really are more of a poor backup weapon... however they would still allow two attacks that deal d8+ full str damage at full BAB instead of the penalties you take for using two weapon fighting. So if you are facing something you are having a hard time hitting it could be worth using the claws instead of an actual weapon (even without two weapon fighting the second claw will be more likely to hit than the weak secondary attacks with a weapon).
Something else, the arcane armor training uses up your swift action, if you spend that swift action on arcane armor training, you can't use arcane strike, dodge, or a quickened spell (also a swift action in pathfinder beta), the bard wouldn't have this problem becuase he doesn't need the training.
The bloodline bonus spells. For a bard this will add mage armor, resist energy, fly, and fear to his list of spells known.
Actually, this is a bit questionable.
Prestige Enhancement, page 7:
"A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level to determine the bonuses gained."
So, what are the 'powers' of a Bloodline? Do they include the bonus spells and the bonus feats?
I would go for a 'no' - in fact, the Dragon Disciple has another interesting class feature (page 8):
"Bloodline Feat: Upon reaching 2nd level, and every three levels thereafter, a dragon disciple receives one bonus feat, chosen from the draconic bloodline’s bonus feat list."
I don't think it's intended to DOUBLE the number of bonus Bloodline feats with this feature, so it's easy to assume that the Bloodline feats are not included among the features called 'Bloodline Powers'.
If you look at how the Bloodlines are shown, all of them have:
1) an extra Class Skill
2) some bonus spells
3) some bonus Feats
4) a feature called 'Bloodline Powers' (in case of Draconic, this lists Claws, Dragon Resistances, Breath Weapons, Wings, and Power of Wyrms).
It's point 4) the only that naturally evolves with the PrC; another feature is the aforementioned Bloodline feat (which gives point 3) ) and the class skills of the Dragon Disciple, which include Perception (point 1) of a Draconic Bloodline).
It's reasonable to assume, then, that bonus spells from the Draconic Bloodline (point 2) ) ARE NOT given by the PrC.
EDIT: the last sentence of the Blood of Dragons, however, seem to imply the opposite... it says "This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Lost bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell’s level.". So, perhaps it gives to the Sorcerer the bonus spells, after all... but, can a Fly (a 3rd-level Sorcerer spell) be included into the spell slots of the Bard? A Bard does not have spell slots of 'appropriate level' for a 3rd-level (or 1st-level, for what that matters) SORCERER spell, since he has only slots for BARD spells...
The claws probably not so much, as you pointed out they really are more of a poor backup weapon... however they would still allow two attacks that deal d8+ full str damage at full BAB instead of the penalties you take for using two weapon fighting. So if you are facing something you are having a hard time hitting it could be worth using the claws instead of an actual weapon (even without two weapon fighting the second claw will be more likely to hit than the weak secondary attacks with a weapon).
Something else, the arcane armor training uses up your swift action, if you spend that swift action on arcane armor training, you can't use arcane strike, dodge, or a quickened spell (also a swift action in pathfinder beta), the bard wouldn't have this problem becuase he doesn't need the training.
Yea I think I missed arcane armor training uses a swift action. That's stupid, does a fighters armor training use a swift action? No, its training, you;ve learned how to do it.
You should be able to do arcane strike AND Arcane armor training (not one or other other, training implies knowledge/muscle memory, strike implies some kind of action, so arcane strike sucking up a swift action makes sense, arcane armor training, no?If that be the case, bards should just get arcane armor training for free at first level, like wizards get scribe scroll. But the bard has the same penalty with the swift action deal.
There is NO real reason why bard's can cast in armor while others cannot.
In older editions, bascially all gish types could, and some how only the bard kept it? Either one way or ther other I say, not one class being the exception to the rule.
The bloodline bonus spells. For a bard this will add mage armor, resist energy, fly, and fear to his list of spells known.
Actually, this is a bit questionable.
Prestige Enhancement, page 7:
"A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level to determine the bonuses gained."EDIT: the last sentence of the Blood of Dragons, however, seem to imply the opposite... it says "This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Lost bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer...
Yeah the bonus spells and special bloodline powers are the ones I would stick to my guns on, the feats... I'm not sure the intent there, and I'm prone to say that they are not included in the benefits from the Blood of Dragons ability. The main reason I stick to the spells is that last line on the Blood of Dragons ability.
Pendagast
Bards have always been able to cast spells in armor when others cannot, it's been one of their "things" since they've been around...
the huge difference is what type of spells they cast. In Advanced they cast druid spells, in 2nd they cast wizard spells and in 3.x they got their own spell list for the first time.
When the Bard was first introduced (essentially a 1e prestige class) ANY Fighter/M-U could cast in armor. So that ability was not the "realm" of the bard.
3.X took that ability away from the multiclass arcane spellcasters and let the bard keep it, without any REAL explaination as to WHY specifically a BARD would have that ability,but not a multiclass type.
It would make sense if Bards literally had their OWN BARD spells (no one else could cast spells that are on the bard list) or even if the spells on the bard list had NO somoatic components (this makes the most sense to me, since largely, the bard would be playing an instrument, dancing, flipping or doing some other distracting non arcane movements). But Again WotC (IMO) were lazy, and instead of giving the bard UNIQUE spells (like druids) they just took SOME arcane spells and put them on a BARD LIST.
The draw backs are a) other arcane casters can cast the same spell a bard can.
b)bards apply different rules to those same spells than other arcane casters.
Again, either of the above would totally make sense to me (spells on the bard list have no somatics for anyone casting them) and/or (they are bard only spells, and bards can cast in armor)
See here's another thing,why would it be so out of the ordinary for a bardto LEARN fireball (I mean without multiclassing) in the way a sorceror could learn a non sorc spell (like cure light wounds)
So then can a bard cast that fireball in armor or not?
Why is fireball not on the bards list? Because casting fireballs in armor would be unbalancing?
In my opinion it's just a left over that didnt get cleaned up right.
If Bards can do it, thats fine, there just needs to be an explaination why they can do it and a fighter/wizard needs a feat plus a swift action sucked up to do the same thing while casting the same spell?
Either way, I still think the bard would make a cruddy DD, with claws.
Id take pathinder chronicler before Id take DD, to get a bard with a slightly better AC (that I can do a dozen other ways) and a set of (to the bard) useless claws.
Not just any magic user/fighter could cast spells in armor back in advanced, only elven magic user/fighters could. It states so specifically in the multiclass entries.
And How would a sorcerer learn cure light wounds? Not that I mind but there is no way in core for a sorcerer to do such a thing. The closest things would be splat book material (arcane disciple, recaster, rainbow servant, and a few others). While I don't mind the bard having a means of gaining more spells known that are not on his spell list no body has that ability currently.
The Bard has some divine spells on an arcane list, not the other way around. The whole point of the Bard in 3.x was to play up both his generalist nature and his musical abilities. Now granted they failed in my opinion on both accounts but that was what they where trying for.
Not just any magic user/fighter could cast spells in armor back in advanced, only elven magic user/fighters could. It states so specifically in the multiclass entries.
And How would a sorcerer learn cure light wounds? Not that I mind but there is no way in core for a sorcerer to do such a thing. The closest things would be splat book material (arcane disciple, recaster, rainbow servant, and a few others). While I don't mind the bard having a means of gaining more spells known that are not on his spell list no body has that ability currently.
The Bard has some divine spells on an arcane list, not the other way around. The whole point of the Bard in 3.x was to play up both his generalist nature and his musical abilities. Now granted they failed in my opinion on both accounts but that was what they where trying for.
In the sorc entry, it states that they can learn other spells not on the sorc list. What other arcane spells are available? Hmm maybe bard spells? Bard has cure light on their list. Which means its theoretically possible for a sorc to learn cure light from a bard.
So as far as armor casting, we are now discussing the old rules of mutliclass vs. dual-class.
ONLY elves AND half elves COULD be fighter/magic-users.
But then again only Humans and Half elves could be bards!
So effectively they opened up ALL the classes to ALL races, but only the bard kept casting in armor.
There is still no reasoning why the Bard ket the casting in armor while other combos didnt.
And certainly if some humungo dragon can cast (umm how do they handle somatic components anyway?) arcane spells with all their weight and scaly armor, why couldn't say a Dragon Disciple cast in armor?
And PERSONALLY I think the Eldritch Knight should be given this ability at first level (seeing as the existance of that PrC is specifically in exsitance as a nod to ye olde fighter/magic-user)
But back to claws and the usefulness/over poweredness of them.
I can see the bard wanting, BAB, AC and really missing 3 caster levels to the bard is a trivial trade off to the stat bumps he gets, coupled with the above, so mechanically it would be a good choice, But then to loose progression in the bardic class features for that stuff? Ouch!
Then, also he looks funny and all scaly, I think he would loose a bit of charm in the process.
But as we have gone around with this several times. Clearly "Claws" arent th biggest issue of any of the classes involved.
On the dragon note, they aren't carrying scales armor, they are scaly, it's their natural bodies (you have skin that's a +0 natural AC why can you cast spells?). Considering they can carry items and move their arms, in addition to have opposable digits I don't see any reason they can't cast spells.
That's beyond the fact dragons have always (in D&D) been able to cast spells.
If scaly looks and claws doesn't affect the sorcerer's ability to interact with people I see no reason the bard's should be affected.
Beyond that what bard ability is equal to the abilities the DD gets? I mean really cure light wound, mass that takes a minute of concentration to cast? The ability to use a spell-like ability against opponents within 30 feet of you, when you could simply cast the spell instead (and the spell doesn't render them immune to itself if they succeed!). The bardic music abilities are laughable at best and easily replacable by buff spells or other spells. Beyond that their save DC's are attrocious simply becuase of their low spell levels, and the long time it takes them to get to the spells anyways.
IMO the hardest thing to give up on the bard is those skill points.
On the dragon note, they aren't carrying scales armor, they are scaly, it's their natural bodies (you have skin that's a +0 natural AC why can you cast spells?). Considering they can carry items and move their arms, in addition to have opposable digits I don't see any reason they can't cast spells.
That's beyond the fact dragons have always (in D&D) been able to cast spells.
If scaly looks and claws doesn't affect the sorcerer's ability to interact with people I see no reason the bard's should be affected.
Beyond that what bard ability is equal to the abilities the DD gets? I mean really cure light wound, mass that takes a minute of concentration to cast? The ability to use a spell-like ability against opponents within 30 feet of you, when you could simply cast the spell instead (and the spell doesn't render them immune to itself if they succeed!). The bardic music abilities are laughable at best and easily replacable by buff spells or other spells. Beyond that their save DC's are attrocious simply becuase of their low spell levels, and the long time it takes them to get to the spells anyways.
IMO the hardest thing to give up on the bard is those skill points.
Oh I agree the DD is better than the bard, But you are looking at a class that exists basically to dip into alevel to get your bardic knowledge (which Ive always liked) and the ability to cast in armor??
That just almost FORCES people to dip!If you went bard/dragon disciple/what would you do with the other levels? Monk? Rogue? Fighter? MORE BARD?
In the sorc entry, it states that they can learn other spells not on the sorc list. What other arcane spells are available?
Ones that they use the "create a new spell" mechanic to create. Please note the exact wording of the text:
These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.
I see nothing in there to indicate that a sorcerer can ignore their spell list and take any spell.
In the sorc entry, it states that they can learn other spells not on the sorc list. What other arcane spells are available?Ones that they use the "create a new spell" mechanic to create. Please note the exact wording of the text:
These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.I see nothing in there to indicate that a sorcerer can ignore their spell list and take any spell.
Unusual spells the sorceror has gained some understanding of?
What makes them unsual?Where do the new spells come from?
The common list IS the common list.
So new spells written in a book you have to pay for is ok?
But if a Sorceror learns cure light wounds from a bard (because he has gained some understandng through study) its not ok, because it's not on the sorc list?
Well wait,ALL unsual spells aren't on the sorc list.
Bards cast ARCANE spells, do they not?
This means the bard version of cure light wounds is an ARCANE spell when used by a bard,not a divine one.
It's existance as an arcane spell makes it an "unusual" arcane spell.
How does that not fit the wording above?
The bard and his spell list are unusal to begin with.
If I was to do a Bard/DD I would probably end up with bard 4, fighter (or ranger, paladin, barbarian, depending on the character) 1, DD 5~10, EK 5~10. I link the DD better flavorwise even for bards, but EK has alot going for it too now, so it would be a toss up on how many levels I would take for each.
If I did DD 5 EK 10, I would end up with a BAB of 17. If I did DD 10 EK 5 I would end up with a BAB of 16.
So Bard 5/DD5/EK 10 hmmmm, what are the PROS to doing that build with a bard instead of a sorc? BESIDES the free light armor and casting class feature of the bard?
What else would you actually use from the bard of only 5th level?
I guess the best part of him is his spell list has a lot of charms and heals. without having to be a diety worshipper?
EDIT: wait you couldnt be an EK, you need to be proficient with ALL martial weapons.
So you'd need at least a level of fighter, ranger or barbarian.
So why not just Bard 1/Fighter 1/Dragon Disciple 8/EK 10.
What would be the benefit for taking more levels of bard? 1 level gives you their casting in armor and spell list, and qualifies you for DD, the levels of DD will give you enough to qualify for the arcane part of EK and the 10 levels of EK will stack with fighter for qualifying for fighter feats and the 1 level of fighter gives you a free feat and qualifies you fo the EK.
BANG BOOM,the ultimate GISH!(with claws to boot)
Edit on the other side of the coin, that build with a sorceror would get ALOT more spells (and higher level ones too) 15 levels of bard casting would get you one 5 level bard spell. While 15 levels of sorc casting gets you 4 7th level spells.
So the real difference is: NOT using a swift action to cast in light armor and being limited to a single 5th level spell, but having access to healing, OR: USING a swift action and two extra feats, being able to cast in medium armor, but having more and better spell selection?
Still looks better for the Sorc over the bard, no?
My post didn't take, second try...
I suggested bard 4 fighter 1, becuase bard levels 2-4 get BAB at the same rate as the fighter, but also give spells, which are IMO better than 3 bonus feats and the first level of armor training.
You still have to meet the skill requirements to get into the PrC so you couldn't just take fighter 1 bard 1.
The other things I like about the Bard over sorcerer:
Weapon choices at level 1, Skill points, BAB, Saves, HP, and some of the spell choices the bard has (good hope for example).
My post didn't take, second try...
I suggested bard 4 fighter 1, becuase bard levels 2-4 get BAB at the same rate as the fighter, but also give spells, which are IMO better than 3 bonus feats and the first level of armor training.
You still have to meet the skill requirements to get into the PrC so you couldn't just take fighter 1 bard 1.
The other things I like about the Bard over sorcerer:
Weapon choices at level 1, Skill points, BAB, Saves, HP, and some of the spell choices the bard has (good hope for example).
Yes yes, but the claws! This is how this started, where could you go with a build using claws and are they useful/useless or over powered?
So weapon choices of the bard are a moot point, especially since you will end up taking a level of fighter anyway.And the 4 levels of bard to get to 5 HD (just so you can get 5 ranks in arcana) seems like a waste, with the exception of the better saves.
Seems to be if you went bard 1 barbarian 4 youd get more melee punch with being able to be a ragin dragon disciple/EK. Ranger for this purpose seems meh.
Hmmm...i guess it really comes down to seeing it played. because there would be alot not seen in a "build" as you played each combo level by level.
The bard saves are quite good.
We have a Sorc/DD right now in our group. She was planning on 10 sorc/10 DD, But could go 5 sorc/10DD/5 Arcane archer... not sure what shes going to do.