Maps. How I love them.
Maps. How I seem to suck at making them.
Sure I can do the crude hand-drawn stuff. But every time I try to make a "real map" that has reasonably consistent scaling, can survive annotations, etc. It takes FOREEEEEEEVER to finish.
I tried Campaign Cartographer and got passable results, it's just I couldn't devote the time necessary to finish the map. They always seem to be a work in progress.
Is this just the Achilles' Heel of my GMing skills? Am I truly a mapping grognard who just needs to embrace the digital mapping tools that are available? Or does everyone else suck at making maps also?
Seriously, though, for all the GMs out there:
How do you rate your mapping skills?
What is your primary mapping method/toolset?
'Cause although misery loves company, I'd REAALLLY like to get better at making useful maps. (FWIW, my wilderness-map-fu is my weakest skill.)
P.S. James & Wes, although you previously earned my admiration for your adventure design super skills, your "turnover maps" now make me want to smack you! I can only dream my finished maps come close to your maps! With Envy, I hereby dub thee RBMs! (Rat Bastard Mappers)
I'm actually interested in learning to use something like Campaign Cartographer. Is it easy to use or do you have to be a computer geek to utilize it? Anyone know any other good mapping tools?
I'm actually interested in learning to use something like Campaign Cartographer. Is it easy to use or do you have to be a computer geek to utilize it? Anyone know any other good mapping tools?
It's not hard, per se, and it can do a lot. I suspect proficiency with it speeds up it's use just like any other program. While it's object oriented, I frequently have a hard time orienting/positioning objects as I want them to appear. Also, if I zoom in to get the detail/positioning under control, I lose perspective on the overall map. I think that's just a function of a computer program, though. It doesn't bother me at work when using Visio, but it drives me nuts in Campaign Cartographer.
Again, I think I need to spend more time with it to gain proficiency. However, with work and family, time is limited to begin with and I'd rather spend it working on NPCs, adventures, and campaign stuff.
I would give my mapping skills a 2/10. Here's an example of a map I gave my players for Shackled City; I think I made it in MS Paint (or maybe GIMP). If you have a sensitive artistic sensibility, you may wish to avert your eyes. Likewise, it may contain spoilers for the first adventure (if you can decipher it at all).
I'd probably make people happy to play without maps. I once drew someone a map and he died on the way. And I just showed him the way to the kitchen. He was mangled. By rabid dingoes. And a yeti. And those don't even exist. How could that happen to a police officer? Police! He was just there to fine me for having the music on too loud. I know, one would think that it all points to me brutally killing him to avoid a €12 fine, and all evidence points to that, but that obviously cannot be it, because of the map.
Creative Director
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All four of the maps that I posted on the blog were hand-drawn. The two with color elements were touched up in Photoshop with the fill tool and the text tool; nothing TOO fancy.
As with pretty much anything else, the way to get better at mapping is to practice, practice, practice! One particularly GOOD way to practice is to copy maps by hand; find a cool map you like and re-draw it by hand (not by tracing).
In any event, the problem that faces me is the simple fact that not all writers are good mappers. Hence the map drawing talent search.
I'm not sure how I rate as a mapmaker. At times I've thought I was pretty good.
Here are some examples:
A regional map. I used a tool called HexMapper and then did some editing in a photo editor.
A larger area for a dead campaign. This one I drew by hand then scanned in and added text using a photo editor.
Here is another map done using HexMapper and then edited a bit.
I'm not sure if this is what James is looking for or not.
I will say that CC2 is a pain to use. It has about the most non-intuitive interface known to man. But I have produced some pretty cool maps -- it just takes forever.
CJ
I think I rate at about a 6/10 and improving...
I use a combination of Photoshop and Bryce to do my mapping, though Dundjinni is awesome to quickly put something together.
I love mapping, but I don't use minis and don't use battlemaps at all when I play. :)
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I make do with MICROSOFT WORD. Here is the Tutorial I am assembling.
It has two jpgs so if you dont see them, you will probably need to sign up. The first is a Cave in the blue Adventure Cover style of early D&D Adventure Modules, the next is a Building in the B&W Dungeon Magazine Style.
Up next is the drawn by hand, scanned to PC, and improved in PAINT...version of Maps.
Illustrator mostly if it's just a fast map. Photoshop if I want to do fancy blends and textures.
I don't draw anything anymore, just use a wacom board and skip the step where you scan it into the computer. Also the internet is a rich resource: a few week ago I snarfed some persian rug jpegs and put them in a Katheeran hookah bar.
But I've only been making D&D maps for the last two years at the most, so my experience is limited mostly to pbp battlemaps. I'm still working on doing a city that looks different yet believable.
I make do with MICROSOFT WORD. Here is the Tutorial I am assembling.
It has two jpgs so if you dont see them, you will probably need to sign up. The first is a Cave in the blue Adventure Cover style of early D&D Adventure Modules, the next is a Building in the B&W Dungeon Magazine Style.
Up next is the drawn by hand, scanned to PC, and improved in PAINT...version of Maps.
Don't hit the link guys. Dingo uploaded a nude self portrait.
Maps. How I love them.
Maps. How I seem to suck at making them.
This fits me to a tee. =P
Now lately these last few years I've used Dundjinni. I also have Campaign Cartographer and I can use both on the same map. Dundjinni lets me go into my CC files and pull up all their map icons and stuff and stick them onto a map while using the Dundjinni toolset. Which is awesome since I couldn't figure out how to use the Campaign Cartographer as is.I do passable "overland" maps this way. Mostly just drawing the contour lines, coloring that all in, and then sticking those iconseverywhere.
I do better with "dungeon" maps. This may be entirely coincidental since I'm using Dundjinni. I don't think so though.
I think I rate at about a 6/10 and improving...
I use a combination of Photoshop and Bryce to do my mapping, though Dundjinni is awesome to quickly put something together.
I love mapping, but I don't use minis and don't use battlemaps at all when I play. :)
Lilith, texturing treetops in Photoshop. Please tell. Save me the agonizing hours of finding out myself. Do I really have to cover my floor in broccoli and stand on the coffee table with a digital camera?
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Lilith, texturing treetops in Photoshop. Please tell. Save me the agonizing hours of finding out myself. Do I really have to cover my floor in broccoli and stand on the coffee table with a digital camera?I think I rate at about a 6/10 and improving...
I use a combination of Photoshop and Bryce to do my mapping, though Dundjinni is awesome to quickly put something together.
I love mapping, but I don't use minis and don't use battlemaps at all when I play. :)
Templates of various Model Trees that you can select from would be an idea. Creating the look of a tree is annoying.
Actually might I suggest something: I have looked at the early late 90's colour maps for DUNGEON as well as Paizo Maps and their trees seem to consist of multiple layers of the Same object.
so in the first instance (DUNGEON COLOUR MAPS) draw a shape of a foliage cover, cut and paste, reduce the area and size and angle, and probably repeat th e process a third time. with texture set to something that looks like crushed paper bag with a green-brown tinge.
In the second (PATHFINDER MAPS), it looks like they lay down multiple layers of a texture resembling a green scouring pad...and then go over what they have done to create height fluctuation in the foliage.
If you are going for the Aerial view of a Tree look (coniferous are going to be insane compared to heavy foliage Oaks) - you may have to experiment till you can assembe a template selection.
Lilith, texturing treetops in Photoshop. Please tell. Save me the agonizing hours of finding out myself. Do I really have to cover my floor in broccoli and stand on the coffee table with a digital camera?
You could do the broccoli thing, I suppose. :D The aforementioned Bryce is fantastic for creating vegetation textures (I used them here), but barring that, I get a royalty free photo or texture from StockXchng or DeviantArt and muck with it in Photoshop.
Lilith, texturing treetops in Photoshop. Please tell. Save me the agonizing hours of finding out myself. Do I really have to cover my floor in broccoli and stand on the coffee table with a digital camera?
Lazzaretti uses just photoshop brushes. I think natural brushes, dry media brushes and wet media brushes should do the trick.
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I do my best work by hand. Whenever I get ahold of any 'map making' software, they always seem to lack the exactness Im looking for without lots and lots of practice...I can whip out pretty detailed maps of pretty much anything very quickly.
Based off've the comments Ive had by other gamers whove seen my maps..id say a 7-8 out of 10.
RE: Trees
Lazzaretti uses just photoshop brushes. I think natural brushes, dry media brushes and wet media brushes should do the trick.
Darn, I knew there wasn't going to be an easy way...
I do my best work by hand. Whenever I get ahold of any 'map making' software, they always seem to lack the exactness Im looking for without lots and lots of practice...I can whip out pretty detailed maps of pretty much anything very quickly.
Based off've the comments Ive had by other gamers whove seen my maps..id say a 7-8 out of 10.
I think the map making software looks great, but my artistic bent keeps me using full-on art software. I want to have my own style.
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I'd say I'm ok with maps I couldn't assign a number.
I use photoshop completely. I usually do a rough sketch but I don't scan it, I just use it as a base for what I want to come out on the digital canvas.
A Map I did for Seas of Achaea
A Map I did for Silver Kingdoms
I've got a few more that I've been working on and I'll post when I get them a little more done.
Trent Slabaugh
Infinet Media & Design
DigitalDungeonCast.com
Dunno. 2/10 maybe?
Wait, if you're a "2", then that makes me a "1" (at least the writing is neat on your map!).
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Contributor
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I have been using Campaign Cartographer for several years. I never had any problems learning to use it, because it's based on Computer Aided Drafting (CAD) software. The latest version, CC3, adds a lot more artistic elements, but still functions on the basic CAD premise. It's a bit tougher to use, because it doesn't follow the same format as paint programs for the way objects are manipulated.
I love drawing maps, but haven't really spent much time making up my own. One thing I do is take maps that others have done (usually from modules) and convert them to CC3 format. I either use a scanned image or pull it from a PDF and then basically trace the overall outline and add in the artistic elements.
The end result is a scaleable version of the original. If you don't use too many bitmap images, it is "infinitely scalable"...I can zoom in on a single room without losing clarity.
Heres an example of what I've done with Falcon's Hollow using CC3:
LINK
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I'm an old grognard, too. I figured I'd throw up one of my old hand-drawn maps anyway. You can see it Here
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Contributor
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I'm an old grognard, too. I figured I'd throw up one of my old hand-drawn maps anyway. You can see it Here
Actually, I think your map is pretty good. At least you're creating maps you can use. I've spent hours working on some maps only to have the campaign fall through, so they never even make it to the table.
I forgot I'd uploaded a few items to my Google photos cache. If you're interested, you can check them out here: A few maps
EDIT: I realized I left a detail out of my earlier post: I found CAD software easier to learn because I took three years of drafting in high school, which included the use of CAD software (which was still "new" then)...talk about a grognard.
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I'm an old grognard, too. I figured I'd throw up one of my old hand-drawn maps anyway.
Nice map. I too do most of mine by hand, but lately i've been finishing them up with MS paint and photoshop. I have an HP scanner/copier/printer, so I think i'm lucky in that regard.
Hard ware aside, I have no idea where I'd rank. Maybe 6-7/10?
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I'm an old grognard, too. I figured I'd throw up one of my old hand-drawn maps anyway. You can see it Here
That reminds me of the maps in my really expensive copy of LotR, the one where the artist is named on the book with Tolkien, he's that good...
Just saying.....
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(at least the writing is neat on your map!).
I did those things in MS Paint so I had the possibility of using fonts, of course. So no, I don't think that this qualifies me in any way as the better cartographer. ;).
And, the cavern map is basically just a free-hand copy of a map from an Michael Kortes dungeon adventure so it hasn't even been my idea.
Just to let everyone know, all the map talk compelled me to put a Sothis map I made last year onto a pdf.
When I originally drew it I thought Paizo would come out with their own in a few months so I did it pretty quick and careless. Streets are mostly straight - meh. Lacks hookiness - made it specifically for my Pharaohs game. I posted some key info somewhere - can't remember where.
With no Sothis map in the Osirion guide I suppose someone else might want to use it.
It was a learning map, some of it I've been using on another map I'm putting my heart into.
Drawn by hand on graph paper, coloured with pencil crayons. The counters are layers in GIMP.
Just to let everyone know, all the map talk compelled me to put a Sothis map I made last year onto a pdf.
That is a good map. I think it's all Photoshop 'cause there isn't vector graphic in it? If you have access to Illustrator or any other vector based program, you could maybe write street names etc. with it. But yea, this is a good solid map, I like it.
Just to let everyone know, all the map talk compelled me to put a Sothis map I made last year onto a pdf.That is a good map. I think it's all Photoshop 'cause there isn't vector graphic in it? If you have access to Illustrator or any other vector based program, you could maybe write street names etc. with it. But yea, this is a good solid map, I like it.
Oh, it's 100% Illustrator. I just rasterized it before pdfing it. Wrapping it into a pdf with full graphics is rather a long and tiresome process even with 4 gigs of RAM and a snazzy dual core cpu.
It's my computer dammit, not Adobe's!
Their software is s memory devouring black hole.
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Creative Director
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That is indeed a cool map of Sothis! Exactly the type of map I like to get from an author for map turnover for a city... although I'd probably ask for a bit more actual roads rather than just letting the space between the buildings and trees hint at where roads would be... and I'd probably suggest making the Hives a bit more riddled with alleys than they are. But overall, an excellent map that's clear and obvious about what's going on and actually LOOKS like it could be a city.
My rating would change based on what kind of map I'm forced to produce. I do hand-drawn outdoor maps that I like just as well as some products you buy. I'd give myself a 6 or 7 for forests, cornfields, swamps, and the like. I'd give myself about a 2 on anything else. I can make a nice map with Dunjinni but I'm so slow with it, it's almost never worth the effort (the exception being ships). I spent entire days designing and printing a full scale model of the restored miner's shack from Age of Worms that the players were using as a base. All that ink and effort later, it wasn't worth it for the use I got out of it. I think mapping, for me anyway, is just one of those sucky elements of the game. Caves or rocky mountain ledges with gradients and dramatic height differences are impossible for me to create in full scale (usable with miniatures). Mapping just stinks.
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Creative Director
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One interesting note, at least as far as my tastes go...
For map turnovers, I much prefer to see hand-drawn maps that are touched up in something like Photoshop. Campaign Cartographer's a great program, but it's easy to get lazy with design there. Especially with cities. But generally, the more and more that a map looks either photorealisitc or obviously computer generated, the less entranced I am by the map. Furthermore, computer-created maps are often WAY too cluttered with unnecessary distractions. Things like glows around torches, textures on the ground, fancy fonts, and other elements are what we pay our cartographers to provide—on a map turnover from an author, all that extra detail almost ALWAYS gets in the way of clarity, making it difficult to see things like walls or doors or the squares of the grid.
Simple is good. Simplistic is not.
although I'd probably ask for a bit more actual roads rather than just letting the space between the buildings and trees hint at where roads would be... and I'd probably suggest making the Hives a bit more riddled with alleys than they are...
I hear ya.
Really I did it obscenely fast (guesses?) and it was a learning map. The experiment was "how quick can I crank out city neighbourhoods?" Something bothered me about it so I stopped filling in smaller roads and cutting out the building shapes.
Having turnover maps in adobe illustrator format would seem to be a really good idea because they're really easy to alter. Also a mapper could submit a proposal limning blocks but without architectural effects cut out (using it just so happens, the 'pathfinder' tool) - just for approval - and it would save many hours of work were it not up to standards. And you get an idea of what it does in color. And the final artist could important elements for texturing without having to draw them himself... or herself. And...
...AutoCAD Inventor...
All your RAM is belong to us!
On my work computer I have Adobe running smoothly on 8 gigs and that's with Indesign, Illustrator, Photoshop, Bridge, and Outlook all running at once (oh yeah, and skype, and msn...). Except for the occasional, errr, crash.
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Contributor
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Campaign Cartographer's a great program, but it's easy to get lazy with design there. Especially with cities.
I think this is the problem I have with any of the versions of CC. I get hung up in the details.
I'm terrible at designing cities, anyway. I have a hard time getting past the fact that most cities, particularly those in fantasy settings are the result of generations of organic growth. Very few cities are actually planned out and the result is often a chaotic layout based on utilitarian decisions shaped by the local geography.
I am utterly amazed that some people can envision these massive cities and then draw them. I think I do reasonably well at overland maps and can map out a fairly realistic building or dungeon when necessary. As for cities? I keep trying, but I think I fall into the category of those who are better at writing than mapping.
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I'm terrible at designing cities, anyway. I have a hard time getting past the fact that most cities, particularly those in fantasy settings are the result of generations of organic growth. Very few cities are actually planned out and the result is often a chaotic layout based on utilitarian decisions shaped by the local geography.
Try this site. When I need to draw a city, I study maps of medieval cities and go from there. All of the organic growth has happened, you just have to adapt it to your world.
That site has TONS of maps, so you may have to explore a bit to find the city maps.
I love maps. I've got a ancient map of Beijing above my desk (which is also in China, BTW). I'm can hardly contain my rabid anticipation over ONE DAY seeing Tian Xia maps from Paizo.
I am a published, professional RPG cartographer, so I guess I rate fairly well. I use a hybrid raster/vector application called Xara Xtreme Pro 3.2 for most of my mapping. I have several styles including the use of hand-drawn maps and/or symbols that are scanned an finished ditally. Sometimes I use 3D apps to create more realistic symbols as well. Sometimes I use Xara exclusively to create my maps. Xara is a desktop publishing app, like Illustrator or CorelDraw. It is not a mapping app, specifically.
If you're looking to improve your fantasy mapping skills, then you need to become a member of the Cartographers' Guild
This is an online community of professional cartographers and GMs. Though many use GIMP for mapping, there are plenty of CC3/CD3/DD3 users, Dundjinni users. Some people actually use Paint (!?). We have a list of available software, prices (some are free) and where to learn more.
Many of us pro mappers create tutorials for maps in various specific software, some are highly rated tuts.
Best thing to do is join the Guild. Post your most current map, even a work in progress (no matter how bad you think it is.) Let us critique you and offer you suggestions, point to tutorials or offer tips for techniques right in your thread.
We've got a member who happens to be a lawyer, and not artist (at least he didn't think so) and 6 months later got a map published for a small RPG publisher. This is a guy who claimed no map skills whatsoever. But with help and practice, practice, practice you can only get better.
Also the Guild sponsors monthly mapping challenges - contests following a specific guideline or imagined setting. And the participants begin creating maps. Unlike other map contests, most post a WIP in their own thread, and begin to receive tips on improving their map, even by other participants in the challenge. Though this month had a prize (I print the winner's and ship worldwide at my cost - I run Gamer Printshop, a service for printing large RPG maps for gamers and publishers), usually the award is only an ego thing, but this makes for a great way to continue to practice your mapping skills.
I have won three mapping challenges at the guild.
Anyway, go there and check it out! If you want to create better maps for your games there's no better place to learn - plus its one of the friendliest forum communities you're ever likely to visit.
Gamer Printer
PS: some of my maps... Archean Trade League