A player in my group has this item, and I have to say, it's a real headache to deal with. Here are some of my problems with it.
-While the item restricts players' movement, it doesn't really matter. My players get together inside the 10-foot cube, one of them casts dimension door, and they all move across the battle field to where they want to go before unloading.
-The item is way too useful. All it takes is one standard action and suddenly, the players are all but invincible against my monsters' most potent attacks.
-There's almost nothing I can do to shut it down. Granted, 30 points of damage takes off one charge, and spells, like disintegrate take off 6. However, when the item has 36 charges, and it only takes 6 charges to activate the item's most powerful ability, even if I have a sorcerer casting disintegrate every round, and two golems doing 30 points of damage each round, that's still 4 rounds where my monsters are completely ineffective. Meanwhile, my players are either busy spelling up inside the cube, or busy killing my monsters off, so I can't spend the entire combat beating on the cube until it comes down, even if I wanted to.
-The item is way too cheap for what it does. For 62,000 gp the player can be immune to damage from all magical attacks, all nonlinving matter, all living matter, or just plain everything. Compare that to a robe of eyes, which costs 120,000 gp, and grants the user darkvision 120 ft, a +10 bonus to Perception checks, some rogue abilities, and has the downside that a player can't avert their eyes from gaze attacks.
So I'm asking people, how do you deal with it? To me, this item seems to be artifact level, and yet it's something that any reasonably high level PC can afford quite easily. Meanwhile, I've tried throwing everything I can think of at this thing, from beholders, to undead, to purple worms, to giant spellcasters, and nothing even phases it. Help!
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A player in my group has this item, and I have to say, it's a real headache to deal with. Here are some of my problems with it.
Sorry to threadjack a bit, but I'm really glad to see you on Paizo, DoveArrow! I'm Yami from WotC, I enjoyed reading your posts on Astrid's Parlor. :)
Oh, and I"m glad my players are waaaay too low level to purchase a Cube of Force.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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The biggest limitation is that is costs 6 charges per minute as well as limits movement. Therefore, an intelligent foe (especially one who beats on it for a round or two and can't get through or that understands how the item works - spellcraft check would be in order) can simply leave. They can come back a minute later, and attack, forcing the party to re-activate the cube, and repeat this until it runs out of charges, or wait until the party isn't grouped together.
The enemy can also use illusions to make them activate the cube in an empty room, throw a fog cloud around their cube so they can't see and target anything, or use indirect effects on them, such as transmute rock to mud, passwall, or disintegrate on the ground beneath them causing them to sink/fall. Reverse gravity would also work against them.
Sorry to threadjack a bit, but I'm really glad to see you on Paizo, DoveArrow! I'm Yami from WotC, I enjoyed reading your posts on Astrid's Parlor. :)
Hey Yami! It's good to see you too.
Yeah, I got the 4E books for Christmas, and after going through them, it made me want to check out Pathfinder. That's probably not the reaction that Wizards was going for, but oh well. Anyway, I've always liked the idea of Pathfinder, so I thought I'd come over here and check things out.
I have to say, I'm still not sure where I fit in over here. I missed most of the playtesting, and my group is still playing 3.5. As a result, I feel a bit like an outsider looking in. Nevertheless, it's kind've nice to once again discuss D&D online with people that are actually playing the same game I am.
Oh, and I'm glad my players are waaaay too low level to purchase a Cube of Force.
Yeah, high level games are pretty crazy. I'm running my first epic campaign, and I have to say, it's a challenge. Nevertheless, it's going pretty well, except for that DAMNED CUBE OF FORCE! GRAAAHHHH!!! Okay, I'm better. :)
The biggest limitation is that is costs 6 charges per minute as well as limits movement. Therefore, an intelligent foe (especially one who beats on it for a round or two and can't get through or that understands how the item works - spellcraft check would be in order) can simply leave. They can come back a minute later, and attack, forcing the party to re-activate the cube, and repeat this until it runs out of charges, or wait until the party isn't grouped together.
That's actually not a half bad idea. I may try that at some point.
Rod of Negation.
Antimagic field.
Dimensional lock to keep them from hopping around.
But your better bet is simply not taking a "pound them until they die" approach. So...
Out-of-Combat charm monster from an unsuspected party that then asks to see the cube.
Pick-pocket as mentioned above (advanced ethereal filcher...)
Gaze attack monsters.
EDIT: Oh ho, you're Epic?!? That's even worse for the party. They throw up the cube, all the enemies go ethereal and wait for the timer to run out, then attack. By epic levels, a cube of force should be an announcement of "hey, we're all gathered in one place, please drop a timestop and then set up all kinds of nastiness to fry us at once."
Rod of Negation.
The one problem I see with the rod of negation is this: If you give it to your monsters, guess what the players are going to wind up with 3 rounds later?
Antimagic field.
Yeah, that works great... unless they have the field that keeps out all magic up. Oh, and guess what they used against my beholders. ;)
Dimensional lock to keep them from hopping around.
Again, works great... unless they have they have the field that keeps out all magic up.
But your better bet is simply not taking a "pound them until they die" approach. So...
Out-of-Combat charm monster from an unsuspected party that then asks to see the cube.
Pick-pocket as mentioned above (advanced ethereal filcher...)
Gaze attack monsters.
The one problem with all of these solutions is that even if they work, and even if the thief gets away with the item without getting pounded into burger meat, all it takes is 62,000 gp, and guess what I'm dealing with again.
EDIT: Oh ho, you're Epic?!? That's even worse for the party. They throw up the cube, all the enemies go ethereal and wait for the timer to run out, then attack. By epic levels, a cube of force should be an announcement of "hey, we're all gathered in one place, please drop a timestop and then set up all kinds of nastiness to fry us at once."
I think tactics like this are about the most useful idea mentioned so far. Let some wily spellcaster pop in and out to waste the item's charges, and then release the proverbial hounds.
Note that keeping out all magic won't shut down either antimagic or the dimension lock. The antimagic field shuts down magic that touches it, so the cube's wall (which stops magic coming through it, not touching it) crashes. The lock is an area effect. The effect would be blocked inside the cube, but they cannot DD anywhere outside that. For getting a rod of negation, those are even cheaper than the cube, and should be a sub-par choice for an epic party (greater dispel magic at CL 15 for the item vs. their levels of 21+--and really at epic they should be casting disjunction). Speaking of disjunction...that will toast the cube outright.
For getting another cube, are they crafting these, or buying them? If the latter, the DM controls what is on the market. If the former, they're burning time so give them a time-dependent challenge.
This cube of force?
"Cube of Force
This device is about ¾ inch across and can be made of ivory, bone, or any hard mineral. It enables its possessor to put up a special wall of force 10 feet on a side around her person . This cubic screen moves with the character and is impervious to the attack forms mentioned on the table below. The cube has 36 charges, which are renewed each day. The possessor presses one face of the cube to activate a particular type of screen or to deactivate the device. Each effect costs a certain number of charges to maintain for every minute (or portion of a minute) it is in operation. Also, when an effect is active, the possessor’s speed is limited to the maximum value given on the table.
When the cube of force is active, attacks dealing more than 30 points of damage drain 1 charge for every 10 points of damage beyond 30 that they deal . Spells that affect the integrity of the screen also drain extra charges. These spells (given in the list below) cannot be cast into or out of the cube:
"
This item gives you a wall of force on one side of you... if you move too fast by any means (including teleport) then the wall doesn't keep up with you and you lose it.
To get completely imprevious walls on each side of the character would take 6 standard actions and eat up all the charges in one minute (6 per side).
Granted in some dungeons it will prevent an enemy from attacking... but if the players have it at full imprevious setting then they can't attack too, the wall prevents all things out including magic so the spell chucker can't sling spells through it either.
This cube of force?
Yeah. That cube of force.
This item gives you a wall of force on one side of you... if you move too fast by any means (including teleport) then the wall doesn't keep up with you and you lose it.
To get completely imprevious walls on each side of the character would take 6 standard actions and eat up all the charges in one minute (6 per side).
You know what else might work? What if dealing damage to the field drains off the charges used to bring it up? So for example, if the player uses 2 charges to bring up the field that keeps out all nonliving matter, 2 attacks dealing at least 30 points of damage brings it back down again.
That still gives the player quite a bit of protection, but not so much that it's broken.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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This cube of force?
"Cube of Force
This device is about ¾ inch across and can be made of ivory, bone, or any hard mineral. It enables its possessor to put up a special wall of force 10 feet on a side around her person . This cubic screen moves with the character and is impervious to the attack forms mentioned on the table below. The cube has 36 charges, which are renewed each day. The possessor presses one face of the cube to activate a particular type of screen or to deactivate the device. Each effect costs a certain number of charges to maintain for every minute (or portion of a minute) it is in operation. Also, when an effect is active, the possessor’s speed is limited to the maximum value given on the table. "This item gives you a wall of force on one side of you... if you move too fast by any means (including teleport) then the wall doesn't keep up with you and you lose it.
To get completely imprevious walls on each side of the character would take 6 standard actions and eat up all the charges in one minute (6 per side).
I don't think this is correct. The effect is described as a "wall 10 feet on a side around her person", which implies a 10' wall on all sides, including top and bottom. The next line reads "This cubic screen" which confirms the effect is an actual 10' cube of force.
I don't think this is correct. The effect is described as a "wall 10 feet on a side around her person", which implies a 10' wall on all sides, including top and bottom. The next line reads "This cubic screen" which confirms the effect is an actual 10' cube of force.
The way I read Abe's post is that everything after the quotes are suggestions about how to nerf the effects of the magic item, rather than interpretations of how the item is supposed to work in game.
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You could always throw one of those high level maneuvers from the Bo9S, that does 100 dmg, that would be what? 7 charges? rock to mud? have the cube and those within sink into it? underground, collapse a passge on them...
there's all sorts of nastiness...and 10'cube is only 4 players...how many in the group?
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Hmm.. another magic toy needing some clarification?
Does it project out from you in all directions? If so, does it penetrate the ground or walls near you, or collapse inward to rest against the surfaces?
Does each side protect against the effects listed for lower number sides. (Probably not.)
Side 1: Keeps Out Winds, Gases. etc... mmm no real concern for suffocation unless the cube is packed with people and fires.
Side 2: Keeps out non-living matter. As you move along the ground, the grass penetrates the walls but rocks and pebbles are pushed out of the way, kind of scraping along? Is this where non-magical energy falls.. fire, freezing cold, etc...
Side 3: Keeps out living matter. How do your allies stay within the cube, nothing in the description indicates they can. Also, even harder to walk on the ground unless it is a manufactured floor. Stone, Wood, etc..
Side 4: Keeps out Magic: Same kind of problem as Side 3, very unlikely your allies will drop all thier magic items just to be protected. Also, if they are inside thier inplace and cast spells don't work like AntiMagic Shell? I am supposing that it is designed to allow the user to cast spells inside, though that is not defined either. Also what about those nasty conjured orb spells.. they aren't really magic energy are they?
Side 5; Keeps out all Things: Put all those previous sides together and its kind of a mess as to what actually is supposed to happen. The main thing that comes to mind is light.. does the inside of the cube become absolute dark with no other light source on the inside? On the flip side of that with no light coming in, you can't see what is on the outside either.
The 'Keeps out..." statement might be the problem, maybe "... cannot cross" so the selected protection prevents them from crossing or harming the wall? Still doesnt fix the light issue for side 5.
Or.. ignore the above and just call it magic and not worry about it.
"It's not what you are doing, it's how you look doing it"
The Unknown Bard
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Yeah the Beholders Antimagic eye should have brought down the Force Screens in a hot second. Then the Eye Tyrant should've hurled rocks and such at them with the Violent Thrust option of it's Telekinesis ray.
A Rod of Cancellation is basically an 11K one shot item that eats magic items alive. Unless your players wanna blow a wish to restore it it's junk when or if they kill the monster.
--Paper, Vrock, Scissors!
I don't think this is correct. The effect is described as a "wall 10 feet on a side around her person", which implies a 10' wall on all sides, including top and bottom. The next line reads "This cubic screen" which confirms the effect is an actual 10' cube of force.The way I read Abe's post is that everything after the quotes are suggestions about how to nerf the effects of the magic item, rather than interpretations of how the item is supposed to work in game.
Incorrect that was the direct quote from the item in question. Exactly how it is written copied and pasted.
however I don't see it mattering that much...
If they are burning enough points to keep magic out they are also keeping magic in, which means they can't teleport out of their cube. It also means that they can't really have any effect on something outside of the cube.
Its a Resilient Sphere producing block basically.
(the spell Resilient Sphere specifically states that nothing can pass through it, which means you can't teleport out of it becuase the magic can't go through it.)
It is important to remember that magic, in general, does not cross planar boundaries. There are some exceptions, like [force] effects pass into the Ethereal plane when created on the Material plane, but in general this holds true
However, extradimensional travel, like teleportation, uses the Astral plane, and therefore will bypass force effects on any plane except for the Astral plane.
Therefore, to bypass a Cube of Force effect on a non-Astral plane, you can simple use any teleportation effect, ex. dimension door or teleport.
If on the Astral plane, enemies cannot teleport in, but then the party cannot teleport out either.
cNh
Except that Resilient sphere activately states nothing can pass through it. It wouldn't matter what plane you are coming from, if you try to step into a space protected by a resilient sphere it would be like stepping into a solid object, the sphere actively prevents the magic required from activing in the sphere, becuase coming from another plane means you are not in the sphere to begin with, you are by default somewhere else and therefore cannot enter...
same thing with anything that specifically states nothing can pass through it.
Walls of force et. al. do not have those specific lines in them, so you can teleport around and what have you (still no ethereal though).
Yeah the Beholders Antimagic eye should have brought down the Force Screens in a hot second.
Well, this is how I interpret it. In the description for antimagic field it says specifically, "Certain spells, such as wall of force... remain unaffected by antimagic field." Since this item is based on the spell wall of force, it seems to me that the cube should hedge out an antimagic field. I don't know if that's a correct interpretation, but given how poorly worded this item's description is, it seems like a reasonable interpretation to me.
same thing with anything that specifically states nothing can pass through it.That's as valid an argument as mine, but still a big assumption. I'd rather base my decision off the actual spell listed in the item's description than a different spell that is specifically different than any other spell in its class.
Except the part where the item specifically states that it keeps everything out, including magic, if the user expends 6 charges a minute.
In which case it acts more like a resilient sphere (which has the same line, which is why I pointed it out) than a wall of force. I'm inclined to say when the discription of the item says it keeps everything out it means everything.
Actually the only two evocation force effects that can't be dispelled are wall of force and forcecage, and they can be dispelled with mage's disjunction and several items.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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same thing with anything that specifically states nothing can pass through it.That's as valid an argument as mine, but still a big assumption. I'd rather base my decision off the actual spell listed in the item's description than a different spell that is specifically different than any other spell in its class.
Except the part where the item specifically states that it keeps everything out, including magic, if the user expends 6 charges a minute.
In which case it acts more like a resilient sphere (which has the same line, which is why I pointed it out) than a wall of force. I'm inclined to say when the discription of the item says it keeps everything out it means everything.
Actually the only two evocation force effects that can't be dispelled are wall of force and forcecage, and they can be dispelled with mage's disjunction and several items.
However, teleportation doesn't pass the sphere, wall or force, or cube of force effect. Nothing passes through the barrier at all, it simply dissapears and re-appears in another location, without travelling the distance inbetween. In addition, the cube of force specifies that it keeps things out, it never states that it keeps anything in.
The magic has to pass through at some point to put you there. If the magic can't reach it's like dialing a disconnected number, no matter how many times you do it, you'll still get nowhere ("...The space you have dial has been temporarily disconnected, please try your teleport again at a different time... again your teleport is very important to us...").
Also:
"special wall of force 10 feet on a side around her person"
so we can establish that it is a wall of force... and that it is a special one.
The way this wall of force is special is in what it keeps out: for 6 charges that's everything, and its shape, a cube.
If it keeps out everything including magic, magical effects can't come across it in anyway (including a beholder's anti-magic cone... it's a supernatural ability which is magical).
Now unless your argument is that a wall of force is one way only then the cube of force is also two way as per the wall of force spell.
However if the players have this item and are using it regularly I don't see too much problem with it, as it has several limitations and limited charges a day. Either hit it very hard, hit it with some of the spells it says cost extra charges, or point out that it works two ways.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Yeah the Beholders Antimagic eye should have brought down the Force Screens in a hot second.Well, this is how I interpret it. In the description for antimagic field it says specifically, "Certain spells, such as wall of force... remain unaffected by antimagic field." Since this item is based on the spell wall of force, it seems to me that the cube should hedge out an antimagic field. I don't know if that's a correct interpretation, but given how poorly worded this item's description is, it seems like a reasonable interpretation to me.
Yeah you're right, I didn't even think to cross reference AMF...
Well for 60K it should be a fairly potent defense, but it can't last all day. I'm with the others in saying pull your attackers back (if they're intelligent) and wait them out. Dropping something like an obscuring mist or better an Acid Fog on the Cube to limit their line of sight and do damage to the cube over time to eat charges would be a good strategy.
--We will, we will VROCK you!
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You really don't need to get drop a mist or fog, they can't see out of thier cube under the effects of Side 5. No light gets in, nothing to stimulate those rods and cones. We all agree on how eyes and seeing works yah? Could also make the teleporting out a problem?
"It's not what you are doing, it's how you look doing it."
The Unknown Bard
You really don't need to get drop a mist or fog, they can't see out of thier cube under the effects of Side 5. No light gets in, nothing to stimulate those rods and cones. We all agree on how eyes and seeing works yah? Could also make the teleporting out a problem?
"It's not what you are doing, it's how you look doing it."
The Unknown Bard
LOL. I think we're getting a little too literal about what they mean when they say "Keeps everything out." :)
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Not getting bizaarly literal, but why would it let in light of any kind, whether it is magical or natural. If you are in a dungeon and all you have outside is a torch, does that light get through the cube force wall, what if it is a light spell on the outside, does that magical light get in?
The definitions of what is kept out should be defined in mechanical game terms to minimize the arbitrary nature of GM/Player interpretation.
"It's not what you are doing, it's how you look doing it"
The Unknown Bard"
Not getting bizaarly literal, but why would it let in light of any kind, whether it is magical or natural.
Well, the wall of force spell description is pretty specific about what it keeps out, and light is not one of those things. Given that, it seems a little silly to assume that an item based on the spell keeps out anything more than the spell does. However, if that's how you want to interpret it, more power to you.
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Not getting bizaarly literal, but why would it let in light of any kind, whether it is magical or natural.Well, the wall of force spell description is pretty specific about what it keeps out, and light is not one of those things. Given that, it seems a little silly to assume that an item based on the spell keeps out anything more than the spell does. However, if that's how you want to interpret it, more power to you.
Agreed the wall of force doesnt state it keeps out light, but it does state:
Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through the wall in either direction.
Since we are dealing with interpretations here not defined game mechanics. Does the light from a Daylight spell pass through a wall of force? Which will answer my question that followed the small bit you quoted.
Not getting bizaarly literal, but why would it let in light of any kind, whether it is magical or natural. If you are in a dungeon and all you have outside is a torch, does that light get through the cube force wall, what if it is a light spell on the outside, does that magical light get in?
I am just looking to define in game mechanic terms what is kept out by the various sides of a cube so that there is no need for any interpretaion.
"It's not what you are doing, it's how you look doing it"
The Unknown Bard
You may just want to give your antagonists the ability to move through higher dimensions. This would literally put a hole in that cube of force.
>fun book< to mess with your players minds ;-)
You may just want to give your antagonists the ability to move through higher dimensions. This would literally put a hole in that cube of force.
>fun book< to mess with your players minds ;-)
Tensor, you are one wild cat, you know that? ;)
Thanks for the ideas.