I looked through the Pathfinder rules, and the D&D SRD, but all I could come up with regarding off-hand fighting related to using two weapons at once. What is the penalty if a character chooses to attack with a weapon in his off hand ONLY? In other words, he/she is carrying something in his/her "good" hand that cannot be dropped, and is forced to attack with the off-hand as his/her primary attack.
Also, what page is this on in the Pathfinder beta?
Should be -4. That's the penaly for off hand if you don't count two weapon fightings ones.
Should be -4. That's the penaly for off hand if you don't count two weapon fightings ones.
I've read opinions like this, and this was my first reaction, too. However, I've also read opinions that in 3.5 there IS no off-hand, and that you can attack with either hand unpenaltied, just not both. Is there an actual rule stated somewhere that says definitively, or do I just need to make a ruling?
I looked through the Pathfinder rules, and the D&D SRD, but all I could come up with regarding off-hand fighting related to using two weapons at once. What is the penalty if a character chooses to attack with a weapon in his off hand ONLY? In other words, he/she is carrying something in his/her "good" hand that cannot be dropped, and is forced to attack with the off-hand as his/her primary attack.
Also, what page is this on in the Pathfinder beta?
I could find nothing in the pfrpg nor in the srd so I looked in the phb 3.5.On page 113 under light, one-handed and two-handed melee weapons it gives the modifiers for damage but says nothing about the attack roll, so I am assuming there isn't a penalty.
pg 95 Pathfinder Beta pdf
Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make
one extra attack each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with
two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand
lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See
Two-Weapon Fighting in Chapter 9.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand,
you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.
When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with
your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and
a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your offhand
weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each.
An unarmed strike is always considered light.
implies a -4, but true not specifically stated that I'm aware of
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Since the Ambidexterity feat has been done away with since the transition from 3.0 to 3.5, handedness is no longer an issue. Characters are assumed to be ambidextrous for the sake of simplicity. Now, that's not to say that it necessarily SHOULD be that way, but there currently exists no way to play an ambidextrous character otherwise (if you wanted to).
I would certainly consider adding a 'handedness' characteristic as a house rule, but I wouldn't really penalize someone for wanting to be ambidextrous either (since there's no established mechanic for it now).
I think I'm going with a middle ground here. About half of the opinions I've received here and elsewhere state there is no rule, which is correct. However, the other half point out that, mathematically, if you remove the Two Weapon penalties from the Two Weapon fighting, you get -4. I'm going to go with a -2, right in the middle. It wouldn't be an issue, except I have a player that really wants to attempt a disarm with a weapon in his off hand, and be ready to attack the next round with the weapon in his good hand.
I think I'm going with a middle ground here. About half of the opinions I've received here and elsewhere state there is no rule, which is correct. However, the other half point out that, mathematically, if you remove the Two Weapon penalties from the Two Weapon fighting, you get -4. I'm going to go with a -2, right in the middle. It wouldn't be an issue, except I have a player that really wants to attempt a disarm with a weapon in his off hand, and be ready to attack the next round with the weapon in his good hand.
For what it's worth, I've always ruled that unless one was attacking with the things one held in either hand (as declared at the start of one's action), one would not be penalized for having an object held in one's "off-hand" (where off-hand is defined as "the hand that I'm not going stabbity-stabbity with") like a torch, a shield, a dagger, etc. so long as the object in question was light or small enough so as to not dramatically effect one's balance. Then again, I've also ruled that many of the so-called skill tricks published in Complete Scoundrel are things one can do once one has a certain number of ranks in the associated skill. I confess, both rulings are borne out of a desire to both reduce the necessary math inherent in the game and to make the Heroes look and act more Heroic. I'm a sucker for good imagined cinematography.
~Doskious Steele
(edit: clarification of action declaration, definition of "off-hand")
The usual penalties for TWF are (main/off)
Untrained: -6/-10
Untrained (light off-hand weapon): -4/-8
Trained: -4/-4
Trained (light off-hand weapon): -2/-2
I think the general penalty for fighting with two weapons at once is that -2, and on top of that come extra penalties for using unwieldy weapons, using a weak hand, and generally not being trained in that sort of thing.
I say use the usual penalties except that general -2.
This means that if you only use your off-hand weapon to attack, you have:
Untrained: -8
Untrained (light off-hand weapon): -6
Trained: -2
Trained (light off-hand weapon): -0
And, of course, you only get to use half your strength bonus on damage (unless you have an ability to use the full bonus)
This is a good place for DM's to set the feel of their game (requiring people to declare left-handed or right-handed can add a sense of realism, etc.) I don't bother with this.
However, if you're adamant about needing a rule, look here:
pg 95 Pathfinder Beta pdf
Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)
[...]
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.
When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your offhand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.
The feat specifies the penalties are associated with a second weapon. So that could indicate, as Steele said, the off hand is simply the one with a second weapon.
However it could be read other ways. Either way, it's a DM call, and it should be.
Ambidextry has been added to two weapon fighting changing the requisite of TWF to Dex 15.
Ambidextry reduced penalty for off hand by 4. Does this make sense that penalty for off hand should be -4 without TWF ?
it does to me ;)
to those it doesn't, humour me for a moment please
IF I repeat IF you are right or left handed, then tie your "on-hand" behind your back for a day.
then tell us whether you still disagree that it's a -4 LOL :)