We've completed two adventures and my players have yet to use a Harrow point. I even remind them - "last encounter for this adventure, good time to use your harrow points" - and they don't do it. Anybody else? Maybe I'm not threatening them enough.
My players are pretty tapped out at the end of Seven Days to the Grave. I don't know if they used many in Edge of Anarchy though; maybe Con-based boosts are more likely to be needed in dire situations?
I find the same thing with action points in Eberron games. Folks hoard them up for an emergency and then lose them.
It took me a few games to adjust, but now I spend my action points like a drunken sailor (and still usually have one or two left over!). I presume that Harrow points are similar: either your players will learn to use them, or they won't (in which case, too bad for them).
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one thing to do to let them know they have them...
make out small counters (3x5 cards, poker chips, etc) and hand them to the players...
this way they have a visual reminder these resources are available.
in the same way, i always put the Action Point tally right at the top of my character sheet, to remember to use them when necessary.
also, if you have a dm screen, print or write out what the harrow points can do and hang it up on the player's side. if not, just make a little chart and make it visible to the players at the table.
-t
My players run the gamut. There's 2 that always have leftovers and 2 others who burn them within the first few hours of getting them..
Some of the wonkiness of the whole 'action point' subsystem, methinks.
We have the Harrow points reset, but for action points we use the Unearthed Arcana system. This means that they points just pile up instead of resetting at each level. PC have usually run low by the time that they level, but they don't have the same anxiety over when to use them.
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They definitely have the tendency to be forgotten. As suggested a visual reminder (like poker chips)would help but also I found that with the different ways to use them the players generally forgot what the harrow points were capable of between sessions (Or remembered only one). I printed a quick description and would give them that each session.
I've had varying results so far. In the "Edge of Anarchy" only a couple players even spent a point. In "Seven Days to the Grave" they used few, if any at all. By the time we got to "Escape from Old Korvosa" and "History of Ashes" they'd split into groups. Some burned through them, others seemed to forget they even had them.
Now, however, in "Skeletons of Scarwall," my players are keenly aware of and very thankful for the Harrow Points they have. (Especially the rogue, since Will saves are not his strong suit.)
Actually, come to think of it, I find some people are the same way with expendable magic items like scrolls and wands. In one of my games, there was a psion with a dorje of True Seeing. I suggested his player might want to use it one time (since we just saw a dwarf turn invisible) and he was horrified by the thought of using one of his 50 charges. In the end, we got ambushed and my character was killed by half-fiendish fire giant swordsages. :-(
Creative Director
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To a certain extent, it comes down to personality and style of play; some players use their points (be they hero points or action points or harrow points or whatever) all the time and others just sit there and refuse to budge. As a GM it can be frustrating to see, especially if one player often uses his points to save other PCs and then to see some of those PCs that get saved be ones who never EVER use their points.
There's not much you can do about that situation except maybe punch up the peril at times (but that can backfire with a TPK, of course), but there could be another problem. Harrow points are a new mechanic: Is it possible that in the heat of battle, players simply forget that they have Harrow points to spend?
In the Savage Tide game I just ran, I gave out hero points; these worked pretty much the same as harrow points but weren't tied to fortune telling readings. Whenever a PC earned a new hero point, he got a card: an actual physical card, like an item card. I customized each hero card to each player; the PC who liked his Mordenkainin mini so much got a Mordenkainin picture. The player who played a surly druid who had a soft spot for kids got a picture of a guy saving some kids from a giant snake. The player who was super into the history of Thanaclan got a picture of a fantasy Aztec ruin. Since each player had a physical reminder of their cards, they were more apt to use them.
Also, another thing you might try is this: As the GM, you know when the PCs are about to be wiped. When you get to a situation where a Harrow point might help, and no one seems to be remembering they have Harrow points, feel free to ask "Do you want to use a Harrow point here?"
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Creative Director
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Actually, come to think of it, I find some people are the same way with expendable magic items like scrolls and wands. In one of my games, there was a psion with a dorje of True Seeing. I suggested his player might want to use it one time (since we just saw a dwarf turn invisible) and he was horrified by the thought of using one of his 50 charges. In the end, we got ambushed and my character was killed by half-fiendish fire giant swordsages. :-(
That's a similar situation, and one that frustrates me as a GM when it comes up. As a GM, if the player's a good friend, I generally use good-natured mockery and ribbing against the player to let him know "Gee, that fight would have gone a LOT better if you'd used a 925 gp charge from your dorje rather than wait for the battle to be over and have a dead character needing a 6,125 gp scroll to fix things."
Two possible fixes:
1) You can just stop handing out wands and potions and scrolls, or you can take pains to have NPCs use them a LOT, just to show the PCs that it's a good way to bolster up.
2) You can house rule wands so that instead of charges, they have X number of uses per day. Say something like 5/day or 10/day before resetting the next day.
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It comes down to the consumable items problem. The same players that get potions or scrolls and never ever use them are the same ones that save their harrow points. They're always waiting for the perfect moment.
Little do they realize, unused consumable items are just plain worthless. Similarly, so are unused harrow points. I eventually started writing them up on the whiteboard so they had a guess, and almost all have used up their Strength ones in Ashes. Dex was pretty good, but the only one that really used the Int points was the Wizard. Similarly, I have a feeling the Druid will be the main one to use the Wisdom points...although the Will save one could be useful.
I have always been over eager to splurg points in games. Be it plot points in serenity, luck points in CP2020, fool arcana in artesia, blood,mana,quintessence,glamour or willpower, i never seem to have enough of these things. It leaves me only one question...can i have their harrow points please?
>> It comes down to the consumable items problem.
That's an interesting point. I've got Hero Points in the game as well - mainly they are the only way to come back from death. A couple players have careless spent those, some have hoarded. Everybody those fails to use the Harrows. Just interesting.
>> It comes down to the consumable items problem.
That's an interesting point. I've got Hero Points in the game as well - mainly they are the only way to come back from death. A couple players have careless spent those, some have hoarded. Everybody those fails to use the Harrows. Just interesting.
Well, one difference is that the effect from using a harrow point is pretty low (isn't it a +1?). And I also thought you had to use one before you roll (in which case a +1 bonus is a waste 95% of the time), whereas action points can be used after you roll (which is much more useful).
I could be completely wrong; I don't have the harrow deck or CotCT, just the Campaign Setting.
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Creative Director
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>> It comes down to the consumable items problem.
That's an interesting point. I've got Hero Points in the game as well - mainly they are the only way to come back from death. A couple players have careless spent those, some have hoarded. Everybody those fails to use the Harrows. Just interesting.
Well, one difference is that the effect from using a harrow point is pretty low (isn't it a +1?). And I also thought you had to use one before you roll (in which case a +1 bonus is a waste 95% of the time), whereas action points can be used after you roll (which is much more useful).
I could be completely wrong; I don't have the harrow deck or CotCT, just the Campaign Setting.
Actually, Harrow points are quite a bit more than just a +1. They change with every adventure to fit the adventure's theme; each of the six adventures in Curse of the Crimson Throne are designed with one Harrow suit in mind. Skeletons of Scarwall, for example, is the Wisdom-themed adventure, since it's the most undead heavy and thus the one where you need clerics the most, and since it has some difficult roleplaying decisions to make that require wisdom on the part of the players. The harrow points themselves for Skeletons of Scarwall can be used in one of the following 3 ways:
Spend a point to reroll a Wisdom-based roll (good for rerolling failed Will saves!). You can do this as long as you have points; rerolling the same roll until you're successful if you want but spending a point each time.
Spend a point to increase your effective cleric level by 2 when turning or rebuking undead; you can spend up to 3 points at once here to up your effective turning level to +6.
Spend a point to increase the Save DC of a spell by +2 and its SR check by +4 and any attack rolls to hit with the spell by +2.
We tried to make sure that at least one option in each adventure is something like the reroll; a method to spend points on things that you already know are failures, and that by spending points you can attempt to save yourself. Also, we try to limit the applications that force you to gamble by spending a point before you roll, and when we DO force a gamble, we try to set it up so that the effect is pretty potent (such as option 3 above, which grants a bonus to three variables at once).
Other uses for harrow points from other adventures include spending a point to force the GM to reroll a d20 roll, spending a point to increase an ability score by +4 for an encounter, spend a point to regain hp equal to your level and 1 ability score damage, spend a point to gain DR 3/— for an encounter, spend a point to increase your speed by 10 feet for an encounter, spend points to increase your dodge bonus to AC for an encounter, and so on. They're pretty significant bonuses for the most part.
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how do we think the wis-boosting harrow point may interact with PFRPG channel energy?
I was tossing around a couple different ideas, including: +2d6 damage, bypasses energy resistance (I apply ER 5 for every point of turn resistance the undead has), or even empowering them.
Any other ideas or suggestions out there?
-t
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Creative Director
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how do we think the wis-boosting harrow point may interact with PFRPG channel energy?
I was tossing around a couple different ideas, including: +2d6 damage, bypasses energy resistance (I apply ER 5 for every point of turn resistance the undead has), or even empowering them.
Any other ideas or suggestions out there?
-t
It should work the same; it should bump the cleric's effective level by two. In the PF RPG, this basically means you spend a point and gain +1d6 damage and increases the save DC by +1.
We've completed two adventures and my players have yet to use a Harrow point. I even remind them - "last encounter for this adventure, good time to use your harrow points" - and they don't do it. Anybody else? Maybe I'm not threatening them enough.
My group is playing it now, rather infrequently...
But I have yet to spend a point in Edge of Anarchy with about 3 parts left (according to the GM). Part of my problem, as a Rogue without Weapon Finesse (I was trying to play a concept, only partially successfully) I had very few ways to spend them that mattered. When I obtained the Rogue Talent "Finesse Rogue" I suddenly found myself able to use them on my attack rolls, but no longer needing to.
My groups tactics have been strong enough so far that we haven't had much difficulty either. That isn't a boast, I expect that to change.
For my party, it's a little different, at the beginning they didn't use our harrow point, because it's new. The way to remember it to them, is to use a blackboard during my game, and at the beginning of the evening, I put it down what represent the harrow point for this adventure. But I keep the fact that during the 1rst adventure, 1 harrow point allowed them to re-roll their initiative and they real like it, so I keep it for the following adventure! And it works!
I had three players on Edge. Two used some harrow points in Edge of Anarchy, and the third seemed to forget he even had them. Nobody burned all points.
In Seven Days, however, they burned all their points (And I had four players on Seven Days). The Temple of Urgathoa ate all their resources: spells, wands, Harrow points, everything. The alarm was raised, and everything was very difficult for the party...
My players love Harrow points.
Update: My group started "Crown of Fangs" this Sunday. In their third combat (first two were Gray Maiden patrols and didn't last past the second round...this was Trifaccia) they threw four Harrow points at me on the opponent's round. Now I now the secret; if you give them Harrow points that they can use to keep a big nasty from critting a PC four times in one round, they won't be able to use them fast enough. =)
As I recall, the Harrow Points in Skeletons of Scarwall allow one to reroll a failed will save. Over half the party ultimately, before it was all said and done, had failed their will saves against the danse macabre's nasty dancing power and not one used their Harrow Point for a reroll.
As I recall, the Harrow Points in Skeletons of Scarwall allow one to reroll a failed will save. Over half the party ultimately, before it was all said and done, had failed their will saves against the danse macabre's nasty dancing power and not one used their Harrow Point for a reroll.
Whereas, my party did. I find it interesting how some situations are inherently more frightening for players than others. Having no control of your actions during a combat with a creepy undead thing must push buttons in my players that they don't in yours.
It's like I said before; some people like to save their points for a "real" emergency (which may never arise). Whereas I live in fear of my play-by-post or play-by-email games collapsing completely at a moment's notice (happens all the time), so I try to spend early and often!