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In different threads, two major problems with Summon Monster were identified.
1) At low levels the spells are respectable, but at higher levels the quality of the monster summoned drops off until it simply cannot compete with Gate, Elemental Swarm, or other high level spells. I theorized that this was because the power of the monster was increasing in proportion to the spell level, not the caster level. The end result is that the toughest monster summoned by Summon Monster IX is the Leonal at CR 12, which is barely relevant at 17th level, let alone 20th.
The other aspect of Summon Monster that scales with level is duration, which ceases to be relevant after 5th level, at which point it is long enough to last an entire combat. (Even at 20th level, it's hard to cram two fights into 2 minutes.)
2) A summoner can easily crowd the battlefield with too many critters, especially in combats that are already running long, slowing down combat even more.
I propose the following fixes.
1) Add rules to the Summoning subschool to say that a caster can only have a single Summon effect involving creatures at a time, unless otherwise specified. Of a second one is cast, the first is automatically dismissed. Flavorwise, this can be related to the fact that summoned creatures are compelled to obey, and the caster can only be in tune to one at a time.
2) Modify the Summon Lists to increase the power of the monsters delivered at high level to help keep the monster relevant. My new lists are noted below, with the CR and potentially relevant abilties noted. (For instance, a Grig with a fiddle can cast Irresistable Dance, and 8th level non-Druid spell, so it's on Summon Nature's Ally IX regardless of CR.) New or moved monsters are noted in bold. (However, do note that the spell effects created by a summoned creature expire when the summon ends, so sometimes the ability ends up being weaker than the associated spell.)
Please note that I have NOT attempted to fix every possible alignment for having a flyer/swimmer/whatever at every level. It's also possible (likely) that for some monsters, CR is not a good metric for poswer, even accounting for SLAs. If you find a problem of this nature, please comment. Similarly, if you see anything that is broken with Augment Summoning, chime in.
The new pattern should vaguely resemble:
I: <1
II: 1
III: 2-3
IV: 4-5
V: 6-7
VI: 8-9
VII: 10-11
VIII: 12-13
IX: 14-15 (IX gets shafted in that at level 20 you're still casting the same spells you've had since 17, but it is not worth making it the only summon spell with a Caster Level requirement for some of the list.)
This was done very agressively, so please do look for problems, especially at moderate levels.
(Augment Summoning is a whole other rant: Rather than fix the Summon lists between 3.0 and 3.5 when it was clear they were anemic, instead Augment Summoning was made core, because that was less work.)
Since no monsters have been removed, and most that have been moved have been moved downward, I don't believe that this change would be a threat to backward compatibility. Anything a caster could summon before with a spell can still be summoned with the same spell. Some monsters at the very low end could probably be cut (Monkey, I'm looking at you!), especially if the associated creature does not make the Pathfinder Bestiary.
There were cases where I felt a monster should have moved up, such as the Dretch granting access to Stinking Cloud to clerics at the same spell level, or just to Sorcerers/Wizards who prepared Summon instead. Achaierai, in particular, are a sore spot, granting access to an insanity effect at 5th spell level (which doesn't expire, since it's (Ex) and is Instantaneous anyway!). In the interest of backward compatibility, I did not want to move these creatures up. However, the breaking point for this decision came when I found that Summon Nature's Ally V getting a Janni allows a Druid access to Plane Shift for travel, as long as the desired destination is an elemental, the astral, or material plane. A non-offensive, limited Plane Shift might not merit being a fuill 5th level spell, but Plane Shift isn't on the Druid list at all.
Also, a few monsters are noted as 'must be higher than X', because they form a heirarchy (Hound Archons are tougher to summon than Lantern Archons, for instance). In the cases where this is noted, the bottom creature in the series is being held above it's CR by a spell-like ability or similar effect. If the bottom creature is removed, the creatures 'resting' on it could be moved down.
Don't complain that Evil gets more toys. The problem there is the Bestiary/Monster Manual/What-have-you has a legitimate reason to contain more Evil than Good things.
Also, I am QUITE aware that CR and other changes in the Pathfinder Bestiary can invalidate all this work, but I urge the Paizo staff to go over the list and it's monsters carefully. It appears to me that a great deal of the bizarre patterns of what certain levels of the spell get you are a result of cut and paste from 3.0 without worrying about changes to the 3.5 Monster Manual. I am now VERY glad the Bestiary has to go to print before the core rules.
Don't assume it will be easy, either. It took something like ten hours of work to put this post together. Don't laugh.
(") is used as a 'ditto mark', because I was sick of repeating 'Celestial' and 'Fiendish'.
Original List:
Summon Monster
Celestial Dog - CR 1/3
" Owl - CR 1/4 (flies)
" Fire Beetle - CR 1/3
" Porpoise - CR 1/2 (aquatic)
" Badger - CR 1/2
" Monkey - CR 1/6
Fiendish Dire Rat - CR 1/3
" Raven - CR 1/6 (flies)
" Medium Centipede - CR 1/2
" Small Scorpion - CR 1/2
" Hawk - CR 1/3 (flies)
" Small Spider - CR 1/2
" Octopus - CR 1 (aquatic)
" Small Viper - CR 1/2
Celestial Giant Bee - CR 1 (flies)
" Bombardier Beetle - CR 2 (Acid Cone)
" Riding Dog - CR 1
" Eagle - CR 1/2 (flies)
Fiendish Squid - CR 1 (aquatic)
" Wolf - CR 1
" Large Centipede - CR 1
" Medium Scorpion - CR 1
" Medium Shark - CR 1 (Aquatic)
" Medium Spider - CR 1
" Medium Viper - CR 1
Lemure - CR 1
Celestial Black Bear - CR 2
" Bison - CR 2
" Dire Badger - CR 2
" Hippogriff - CR 2
Fiendish Ape - CR 3
" Dire Weasel - CR 2
" Constrictor Snake - CR 2
" Boar - CR 2
" Dire Bat - CR 3 (flies)
" Huge Centipede - CR 3
" Crocodile - CR 2
" Large Viper - CR 2
" Wolverine - CR 2
Small Elemental - CR 1 (flies/aquatic)
Hell Hound - CR 3
Dretch (demon) - CR 2 (Can cast Stinking Cloud!)
Celestial Giant Owl - CR 4
" Giant Eagle - CR 4
" Lion - CR 4
Fiendish Dire Wolf - CR 4
" Giant Wasp - CR 4
" Giant Praying Mantis - CR 4
" Large Shark - CR 3 (aquatic)
" Large Spider - CR 3
" Huge Viper - CR 4
Lantern Archon - CR 2 (Flies, touch attack, Can cast Continual Flame for free at will)
Mephit - CR 3 (Flies) (Grab bag of 2nd and 3rd level SLAs)
Yeth Hound - CR 3
Howler - CR 3
Celestial Brown Bear - CR 5
" Stag Beetle - CR 5
" Sea Cat - CR 5 (aquatic)
" Griffon - CR 5 (flies)
Fiendish Deinonychus (Dinosaur) - CR 4
" Dire Ape - CR 4
" Dire Boar - CR 5
" Huge Shark - CR 6 (aquatic)
" Large Scorpion - CR 4
" Dire Wolverine - CR 5
" Giant Crocodile - CR 5
" Tiger - CR 5
Hound Archon - CR 4 (Needs be be higher than Lantern Archon)
Medium Elemental - CR 3 (Flies/swims)
Achaierai - CR 5 (Black Cloud!)
Bearded Devil - CR 5
Shadow Mastiff - CR 5
Celestial Polar Bear - CR 6
" Orca - CR 7 (aquatic)
" Dire Lion - CR 7
Fiendish Gargantuan Centipede - CR 8
" Rhino - CR 6
" Elasmosaurus (Dinosaur) - CR 9 (aquatic)
" Huge Spider - CR 7
" Giant Constrictor Snake - CR 7
Bralani (Azata) - CR 6 (Flies, Charm Person at will, Cure Serious Wounds twice)
Large Elemental - CR 5 (Swims/flies)
Janni (Genie) - CR 4 (Flies (slowly), Plane Shift, Can cast Etheral Jaunt, but self only)
Chaos Beast - CR 7
Kyton - CR 6
Xill - CR 6
Celestial Elephant - CR 9
" Baleen Whale - CR 8 (aquatic)
Fiendish Megaraptor (Dinosaur) - CR 8
" Huge Scorpion - CR 9
" Giant Octopus - CR 10 (aquatic)
" Girallon - CR 7
Avoral (Agathion) - CR 9
Djinni - CR 5 (Plane Shift, needs to be higher than Janni)
Huge Elemental - CR 7 (flies/swims)
Invisible Stalker - CR 7 (flies)
Bone Devil - CR 9
Babau (Demon) - CR 6
Celestial Dire Bear - CR 9
" Cachalot Whale - CR 9 (aquatic)
" Triceratops (Dinosaur) - CR 11
Fiendish Giant Squid - CR 11 (aquatic)
" Colossal Centipede - CR 11
" Dire Tiger - CR 10
" Gargantuan Spider - CR 10
" Tyrannosaur (Dinosaur) - CR 10
Lillend - CR 7 (6th level Bard, flies)
Greater Elemental - CR 9 (swims/flies)
Hellcat - CR 7
Vrock - CR 9 (Flies)
Celestial Roc - CR 11 (flies)
Fiendish Dire Shark - CR 11 (aquatic)
" Gargantuan Scorpion - CR 12
" Colossal Spider - CR 13
Couatl - CR 10 (flies, 9th level sorceror)
Leonal (Agathion) - CR 12
Elder Elemental - CR 11 (flies/swims)
Barbed Devil - CR 11
Night Hag - CR 9
Bebilith - CR 10
Hezrou - CR 11
Summon Nature's Ally
Dire Rat - CR 1/3
Eagle - CR 1/2 (flies)
Monkey - CR 1/6
Octopus - CR 1 (aquatic)
Owl - 1/4 (flies)
Porpoise - CR 1/2 (aquatic)
Small Viper - CR 1/2
Wolf - CR 1
Black Bear - CR 2
Crocodile - CR 2
Dire Badger - CR 2
Dire Bat - CR 2 (flies)
Small Elemental - CR 1 (flies/swims)
Hippogriff - CR 2 (flies)
Medium Shark - CR 1 (aquatic)
Medium Viper - CR 1
Squid - CR 1 (aquatic)
Wolverine - CR 2
Ape - CR 2
Dire Weasel - CR 2
Dire Wolf - CR 3
Giant Eagle - CR 3 (flies)
Giant Owl - CR 3 (flies)
Lion - CR 3
Satyr (no pipes) - CR 2
Large Shark - CR 2 (aquatic)
Constrictor Snake - CR 2
Large Viper - CR 2
Thoqqua - CR 2 (Leaves a usable tunnel)
Juvenile Arrowhawk - CR 3 (flies, touch attack)
Brown Bear - CR 4
Giant Crocodile - CR 4
Deinonychus (Dinosaur) - CR 3
Dire Ape - CR 3
Dire Boar - CR 4
Dire Wolverine - CR 4
Medium Elemental - CR 3 (flies/swims)
Flamebrother Salamander - CR 3
Sea Cat - CR 4
Huge Shark - CR 4
Huge Viper - CR 3
Tiger - CR 4
Juvenile Tojanida - CR 3 (aquatic)
Unicorn - CR 3 (Can cast Neutralize Poison and Cure Moderate Wounds)
Minor Xorn - CR 3
Adult Arrowhawk - CR 5 (flies, touch attack)
Polar Bear - CR 4 (but tougher than Brown Bear)
Dire Lion - CR 5
Elasmosaur (Dinosaur) - CR 7 (Aquatic)
Large Elemental - CR 5 (flies/swims)
Griffon - CR 4 (flies)
Janni (Genie) - CR 4 (Flies (slowly), Plane Shift, Can cast Etheral Jaunt, but self only)
Rhino - CR 4
Satyr (With pipes) - CR 4 (can cast Fear)
Giant Constrictor Snake - CR 5
Nixie (Sprite) - CR 1 (Aquatic, Access to Charm Person and Water Breathing)
Adult Tojanida - CR 5 (aquatic)
Orca - CR 5 (aquatic)
Dire Bear- CR 7
Huge Elemental - CR 7 (flies/swims)
Elephant - CR 7
Girallon - CR 6
Megaraptor (Dinosaur) - CR 6
Giant Octopus - CR 8
Pixie (no special arrows, can't cast Irresistible Dance) - CR 4 (but deprived of arrows, can cast Dispel Magic and Permanent Image (Effectively Major Image due to expiration))
Salamander - CR 6
Baleen Whale - CR 6 (aquatic)
Xorn - CR 6
Elder Arrowhawk - CR 8 (flies, touch attack)
Dire Tiger - CR 8
Greater Elemental - CR 9 (flies/swims)
Djinni - CR 5 (Must be higher than Janni)
Invisible Stalker - CR 7 (flies)
Pixie (sleep arrows, can't cast Irresistible Dance)
Giant Squid - CR 9 (aquatic)
Triceratops (Dinosaur) - CR 9
Tyrannosaur (Dinosaur) - CR 8
Cachalot Whale - CR 7 (aquatic)
Elder Xorn - CR 8
Dire Shark - CR 9 (aquatic)
Roc - CR 9 (flies)
Noble Salamander - CR 10 (Note it cannot summon a Fire elemental)
Elder Tojanida - CR 9 (aquatic)
Elder Elemental - CR 11 (flies/swims)
Grig (with fiddle) - CR 1 (Irresistable Dance)
Pixie (Sleep arrows, memory arrows, can cast Irresistible Dance) - CR 5 (Irresistable Dance)
Celestial Charger (Unicorn) - CR 13
NEW LISTS:
Summon Monster
Celestial Dog - CR 1/3
" Riding Dog (can not Trip) - CR 1 (Added)
" Owl - CR 1/4 (flies)
" Fire Beetle - CR 1/3
" Porpoise - CR 1/2 (aquatic)
" Badger - CR 1/2
" Monkey - CR 1/6
" Eagle - CR 1/2 (flies) (Moved from Summon Monster II)
Fiendish Dire Rat - CR 1/3
" Raven - CR 1/6 (flies)
" Medium Centipede - CR 1/2
" Small Scorpion - CR 1/2
" Hawk - CR 1/3 (flies)
" Small Spider - CR 1/2
" Octopus - CR 1 (aquatic)
" Small Viper - CR 1/2
Celestial Giant Bee - CR 1 (flies)
" Bombardier Beetle - CR 2 (Acid Cone)
" Riding Dog (can Trip) - CR 1 (ability to trip clarified)
Fiendish Squid - CR 1 (aquatic)
" Wolf - CR 1
" Large Centipede - CR 1
" Medium Scorpion - CR 1
" Medium Shark - CR 1 (Aquatic)
" Medium Spider - CR 1
" Medium Viper - CR 1
Formian Worker - CR 1/2 (Grants access to Make Whole if summoned in multiples) (Added)
Lemure - CR 1
Small Elemental - CR 1 (flies/aquatic) (Moved from Summon Monster III)
Celestial Black Bear - CR 2
" Bison - CR 2
" Dire Badger - CR 2
" Hippogriff - CR 2
Fiendish Ape - CR 3
" Dire Weasel - CR 2
" Constrictor Snake - CR 2
" Boar - CR 2
" Dire Bat - CR 3 (flies)
" Huge Centipede - CR 3
" Crocodile - CR 2
" Large Viper - CR 2
" Wolverine - CR 2
" Large Shark - CR 3 (aquatic) (Moved From Summon Monster IV)
" Large Spider - CR 3 (Moved From Summon Monster IV)
Hell Hound - CR 3
Yeth Hound - CR 3 (Moved From Summon Monster IVV)
Howler - CR 3 (Moved From Summon Monster IV)
Celestial Giant Owl - CR 4
" Giant Eagle - CR 4
" Lion - CR 4
" Brown Bear - CR 5 (Moved from Summon Monster V)
" Stag Beetle - CR 5 (Moved from Summon Monster V)
" Sea Cat - CR 5 (aquatic) (Moved from Summon Monster V)
" Griffon - CR 5 (flies) (Moved from Summon Monster V)
Fiendish Dire Wolf - CR 4
" Giant Wasp - CR 4
" Giant Praying Mantis - CR 4
" Huge Viper - CR 4
" Deinonychus (Dinosaur) - CR 4 (Moved from Summon Monster V)
" Dire Ape - CR 4 (Moved from Summon Monster V)
" Dire Boar - CR 5 (Moved from Summon Monster V)
" Large Scorpion - CR 4 (Moved from Summon Monster V)
" Dire Wolverine - CR 5 (Moved from Summon Monster V)
" Giant Crocodile - CR 5 (Moved from Summon Monster V)
" Tiger - CR 5 (Moved from Summon Monster V)
Dretch (demon) - CR 2 (Can cast Stinking Cloud!) (Moved from Summon Monster III)
Lantern Archon - CR 2 (Flies, touch attack, Can cast Continual Flame for free at will)
Bearded Devil - CR 5 (Moved from Summon Monster V)
Shadow Mastiff - CR 5 (Moved from Summon Monster V)
Mephit - CR 3 (Flies) (Grab bag of 2nd and 3rd level SLAs)
Formian Warrior - CR 3 (Added)
Celestial Polar Bear - CR 6 (Moved From Summon Monster VI)
" Orca - CR 7 (aquatic) (Moved From Summon Monster VI)
" Dire Lion - CR 7 (Moved From Summon Monster VI)
Fiendish Huge Shark - CR 6 (aquatic)
" Rhino - CR 6 (Moved From Summon Monster VI)
" Elasmosaurus (Dinosaur) - CR 9 (aquatic) (Moved From Summon Monster VI)
" Huge Spider - CR 7 (Moved From Summon Monster VI)
" Giant Constrictor Snake - CR 7 (Moved From Summon Monster VI)
" Girallon - CR 7 (Moved From Summon Monster VII)
Medium Elemental - CR 3 (Flies/swims)
Hound Archon - CR 4 (Needs be be higher than Lantern Archon)
Bralani (Azata) - CR 6 (Flies, Charm Person at will, Cure Serious Wounds twice) (Moved From Summon Monster VI)
Chaos Beast - CR 7 (Moved From Summon Monster VI)
Kyton - CR 6 (Moved From Summon Monster VI)
Xill - CR 6 (Moved From Summon Monster VI)
Babau (Demon) - CR 6 (Moved From Summon Monster VII)
Hellcat (Devil) - CR 7 (Moved from Summon Monster VIII)
Invisible Stalker - CR 7 (flies) (Moved From Summon Monster VII)
Celestial Elephant - CR 9 (Moved From Summon Monster VII)
" Dire Bear - CR 9 (Moved from Summon Monster VIII)
" Baleen Whale - CR 8 (aquatic) (Moved From Summon Monster VII)
Fiendish Megaraptor (Dinosaur) - CR 8 (Moved From Summon Monster VII)
" Huge Scorpion - CR 9 (Moved From Summon Monster VII)
" Gargantuan Centipede - CR 8
Large Elemental - CR 5 (Swims/flies)
Janni (Genie) - CR 4 (Flies (slowly), Plane Shift, Can cast Etheral Jaunt, but self only)
Avoral (Agathion) - CR 9 (Moved From Summon Monster VII)
Bone Devil - CR 9 (Moved From Summon Monster VII)
Lillend - CR 7 (6th level Bard, flies) (Moved from Summon Monster VIII)
Night Hag - CR 9 (Moved from Summon Monster IX)
Vrock - CR 9 (Flies)(Moved from Summon Monster VIII)
Zelekhut (Inevitable) - CR 9 (Added)
Celestial Roc - CR 11 (flies) (Moved from Summon Monster IX)
" Cachalot Whale - CR 9 (aquatic) (Moved from Summon Monster VIII)
" Triceratops (Dinosaur) - CR 11 (Moved from Summon Monster VIII)
Fiendish Giant Squid - CR 11 (aquatic) (Moved from Summon Monster VIII)
" Colossal Centipede - CR 11 (Moved from Summon Monster VIII)
" Dire Tiger - CR 10 (Moved from Summon Monster VIII)
" Gargantuan Spider - CR 10 (Moved from Summon Monster VIII)
" Tyrannosaur (Dinosaur) - CR 10 (Moved from Summon Monster VIII)
" Giant Octopus - CR 10 (aquatic)
" Dire Shark - CR 11 (aquatic) (Moved from Summon Monster IX)
Huge Elemental - CR 7 (flies/swims)
Couatl - CR 10 (flies, 9th level sorceror) (Moved from Summon Monster IX)
Djinni - CR 5 (Plane Shift, needs to be higher than Janni)
Barbed Devil - CR 11 (Moved from Summon Monster IX)
Bebilith - CR 10 (Moved from Summon Monster IX)
Fiendish Gargantuan Scorpion - CR 12 (Moved from Summon Monster IX)
" Colossal Spider - CR 13 (Moved from Summon Monster IX)
Greater Elemental - CR 9 (swims/flies)
Achaierai - CR 5 (Black Cloud!) (Moved from Summon Monster V)
Greater Abyssal Basilisk - CR 12 (Added)
Leonal (Agathion) - CR 12 (Moved from Summon Monster IX)
Hezrou - CR 11 (Moved from Summon Monster IX)
Ghaele (Azata) - CR 13 (Added)
Noble Djinni (Genie) (Can't cast Wish) - CR 8 (Added)
Efreeti (Genie) (Can't cast wish) - CR 8 (Added)
Fiendish Colossal Scorpion - CR 14 (Added)
Elder Elemental - CR 11 (flies/swims)
Astral Deva (Angel) - CR 14 (Added)
Golden Protector Lammasu - CR 13 (Added)
Marut (Inevitable) - CR 15 (Added)
Trumpet Archon - CR 14 (Added)
Glabrezu (Demon) - CR 13 (Added)
Ice Devil - CR 13 (Added)
Summon Nature's Ally
Dire Rat - CR 1/3
Eagle - CR 1/2 (flies)
Monkey - CR 1/6
Octopus - CR 1 (aquatic)
Owl - 1/4 (flies)
Porpoise - CR 1/2 (aquatic)
Small Viper - CR 1/2
Wolf - CR 1
Black Bear - CR 2
Crocodile - CR 2
Dire Badger - CR 2
Dire Bat - CR 2 (flies)
Small Elemental - CR 1 (flies/swims)
Hippogriff - CR 2 (flies)
Medium Shark - CR 1 (aquatic)
Medium Viper - CR 1
Squid - CR 1 (aquatic)
Wolverine - CR 2
Ape - CR 2
Dire Weasel - CR 2
Dire Wolf - CR 3
Giant Eagle - CR 3 (flies)
Giant Owl - CR 3 (flies)
Lion - CR 3
Satyr (no pipes) - CR 2
Large Shark - CR 2 (aquatic)
Constrictor Snake - CR 2
Large Viper - CR 2
Juvenile Arrowhawk - CR 3 (flies, touch attack) (Moved From Summon Nature's Ally IV)
Deinonychus (Dinosaur) - CR 3 (Moved From Summon Nature's Ally IV)
Dire Ape - CR 3 (Moved From Summon Nature's Ally IV)
Flamebrother Salamander - CR 3 (Moved From Summon Nature's Ally IV)
Juvenile Tojanida - CR 3 (aquatic) (Moved From Summon Nature's Ally IV)
Minor Xorn - CR 3 (Moved From Summon Nature's Ally IV)
Huge Viper - CR 3 (Moved From Summon Nature's Ally IV)
Brown Bear - CR 4
Polar Bear - CR 4 (but tougher than Brown Bear) (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally V)
Dire Lion - CR 5 (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally V)
Rhino - CR 4 (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally V)
Giant Crocodile - CR 4
Dire Boar - CR 4
Dire Wolverine - CR 4
Sea Cat - CR 4
Huge Shark - CR 4
Tiger - CR 4
Medium Elemental - CR 3 (flies/swims)
Unicorn - CR 3 (Can cast Neutralize Poison and Cure Moderate Wounds)
Thoqqua - CR 2 (Leaves a usable tunnel) (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally III)
Adult Arrowhawk - CR 5 (flies, touch attack) (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally V)
Griffon - CR 4 (flies) (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally V)
Adult Tojanida - CR 5 (aquatic) (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally V)
Orca - CR 5 (aquatic) (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally V)
Giant Constrictor Snake - CR 5 (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally V)
Nixie (Sprite) - CR 1 (Aquatic, Access to Charm Person and Water Breathing) (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally V)
Elasmosaur (Dinosaur) - CR 7 (Aquatic)
Large Elemental - CR 5 (flies/swims)
Satyr (With pipes) - CR 4 (can cast Fear)
Salamander - CR 6 (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally VI)
Baleen Whale - CR 6 (aquatic) (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally VI)
Xorn - CR 6 (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally VI)
Dire Bear- CR 7 (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally VI)
Elephant - CR 7 (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally VI)
Girallon - CR 6 (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally VI)
Megaraptor (Dinosaur) - CR 6 (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally VI)
Pixie (no special arrows, can't cast Irresistible Dance) - CR 4 (but deprived of arrows, can cast Dispel Magic and Permanent Image (Effectively Major Image due to expiration)) (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally VI)
Invisible Stalker - CR 7 (flies) (Moved From Summon Nature's Ally VII)
Shambling Mound - CR 6 (Added)
Huge Elemental - CR 7 (flies/swims)
Giant Octopus - CR 8
Janni (Genie) - CR 4 (Flies (slowly), Plane Shift, Can cast Etheral Jaunt, but self only) (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally V)
Dire Tiger - CR 8 (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally VII)
Triceratops (Dinosaur) - CR 9 (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally VII)
Tyrannosaur (Dinosaur) - CR 8 (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally VII)
Cachalot Whale - CR 7 (aquatic) (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally VII)
Elder Xorn - CR 8 (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally VII)
Elder Arrowhawk - CR 8 (flies, touch attack) (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally VII)
Elder Tojanida - CR 9 (aquatic)(Moved from Summon Nature's Ally VIII)
Pixie (sleep arrows, can't cast Irresistible Dance) - CR 4 (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally VII)
Dire Shark - CR 9 (aquatic) (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally VIII)
Roc - CR 9 (flies) (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally VIII)
Treant - CR 8 (Added)
Nymph - CR 7 (Added)
Stone Giant - CR 8 (Added)
Greater Elemental - CR 9 (flies/swims)
Djinni - CR 5 (Must be higher than Janni)
Giant Squid - CR 9 (aquatic)
Noble Salamander - CR 10 (Note it cannot summon a Fire elemental) (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally VIII)
Fire Giant - CR 10 (Added)
Frost Giant - CR 9 (Added)
Celestial Charger (Unicorn) - CR 13 (Moved from Summon Nature's Ally IX)
Noble Djinni (Genie) (Can't cast Wish) - CR 8 (Added)
Efreeti (Genie) (Can't cast wish) - CR 8 (Added)
Kraken - CR 12 (Aquatic) (Added)
Purple Worm - CR 12 (Added)
Cloud Giant - CR 11 (Added)
Elder Elemental - CR 11 (flies/swims)
Grig (with fiddle) - CR 1 (Irresistable Dance)
Pixie (Sleep arrows, memory arrows, can cast Irresistible Dance) - CR 5 (Irresistable Dance)
Storm Giant - CR 13 (Added)
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In different threads, two major problems with Summon Monster were identified.
1) At low levels the spells are respectable, but at higher levels the quality of the monster summoned drops off until it simply cannot compete with Gate, Elemental Sqarm, or other high level spells. I theorized that this was because the power of the monster was increasing in proportion to the spell level, not the caster level. The end result is that the toughest monster summoned by Summon Monster IX is the Leonal at CR 12, which is barely relevant at 17th level, let alone 20th.
The other aspect of Summon Monster that scales with level is duration, which ceases to be relevant after 5th level, at which point it is long enough to last an entire combat. (Even at 20th level, it's hard to cram two fights into 2 minutes.)2) A summoner can easily crowd the battlefield with too many critters, especially in combats that are already running long, slowing down combat even more.
Excellent post!!!! I too have felt the same way you feel: on both points. The mosters are far behind the curve once the PCs hit about 10th level or so.
I really appreciate the time and effort you put into the update list proposals for the spell.
I took a look at them and they look great!!! Thanks for sharing - whether Paizo agrees or not (I hope that they do) with your points, I see myself adopting these updates for my games.
Robert
Please do use it in your home game, especially if you have a Druid, Conjurer, or minion-happy Cleric. I feel it could use playtesting.
Other things that I'd like people to look for would be critters, particularly animals, with abnormally large HD or who otherwise interact oddly with Augment Summoning, or really interactions with Augment Summoning in general, or spell-like abilities I may have overlooked.
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In different threads, two major problems with Summon Monster were identified.
1) At low levels the spells are respectable, but at higher levels the quality of the monster summoned drops off until it simply cannot compete with Gate, Elemental Sqarm, or other high level spells. I theorized that this was because the power of the monster was increasing in proportion to the spell level, not the caster level. The end result is that the toughest monster summoned by Summon Monster IX is the Leonal at CR 12, which is barely relevant at 17th level, let alone 20th.
The other aspect of Summon Monster that scales with level is duration, which ceases to be relevant after 5th level, at which point it is long enough to last an entire combat. (Even at 20th level, it's hard to cram two fights into 2 minutes.)2) A summoner can easily crowd the battlefield with too many critters, especially in combats that are already running long, slowing down combat even more.
Excellent post!!!! I too have felt the same way you feel: on both points. The mosters are far behind the curve once the PCs hit about 10th level or so.
I really appreciate the time and effort you put into the update list proposals for the spell.
I took a look at them and they look great!!! Thanks for sharing - whether Paizo agrees or not (I hope that they do) with your points, I see myself adopting these updates for my games.
Robert
Ditto
The inevitables are odd, with mark of justice, which isn't on the arcane list, and with the Kolyarut, being able to be called as multiples, with that at-will enervation ray which has to be considered as though the caster has the ability to cast a super-long range quickened enervation when being able to summon up to 1d3 of them.
Additionally, although I am a big fan of the formians, their set of resistances and immunities are pretty big, which makes them quite a bit more situationally useful than some of the other options. I like adding the workers as a low summon, but I am conflicted about the Warriors. It does give non-evils a poison option, but I think they might be the lowest summonable creature with SR, and a stack of 1d4+1 of them could be certainly better than similar stacks of lower summons, due to hive mind.
It does give non-evils a poison option, but I think they might be the lowest summonable creature with SR.
Everything Fiendish or Celestial has SR of 5 + HD.
I'll take another peek at the Kolyarut SLAs.
Edit: I peeked. Enervation is a 4th level spell. Given that the Kolyarut is on Summon Monster VIII, that's probably fine.
The Mark of Justice thing is fine: The spell effect ends when the summon does. And witha 10 minute casting time, the Summoned critter couldn't do it anyway.
Edit: Mephits have been returned to SM IV, due to the huge grab bag of SLAs they as a group possess.
Everything Fiendish or Celestial has SR of 5 + HD.
The Formian Warrior is SR 18, far ahead of what the Fiendish or Celestial template would give anything near the same CR and HD.
I'll take another peek at the Kolyarut SLAs.
Edit: I peeked. Enervation is a 4th level spell. Given that the Kolyarut is on Summon Monster VIII, that's probably fine.
The Kolyarut's enervation ray is substantially better than the spell, with a 200ft range, versus Close range for the spell. Granted, we are talking about something which is going to be in the hands of 15th level characters, but a 17th level character can call up 3 of them, which is essentially multiples of a very beefy SoS spell with no save, at a range where the spell would not normally be castable.
Edit: Yah, mephit (any) is a remarkably huge grab bag of tricks. Much moreso than elemental (any), which is still a big grab bag, but one that I am okay with pushing to second level spells.
The Formian Warrior is SR 18, far ahead of what the Fiendish or Celestial template would give anything near the same CR and HD.The Kolyarut's enervation ray is substantially better than the spell, with a 200ft range, versus Close range for the spell. Granted, we are talking about something which is going to be in the hands of 15th level characters, but a 17th level character can call up 3 of them, which is essentially multiples of a very beefy SoS spell with no save, at a range where the spell would not normally be castable.
The Formian Warrior should perhaps be moved to 4th level, due to it's fairly high resists. At 4th, it has to compete with the likes of the Bearded Devil. EDIT: I can apparently still edit the top post, so done.
Touch attacks do tend to be pretty good, and the Kolyarut's ray is not subject to SR, since it's an (Su) ability. Would it be fair on SM IX? Or not at all? If it'd be fair on SM IX, I'm sad because that'd mean the Marut gets knocked off. It's it's not safe at any speed, then just cut it from the list.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I haven't had time to fully review, but a few quick comments:
First, the concept is great - I hope something along these lines gets in the final PRPG.
I'm glad to see you added plant creatures to summon nature's ally.
Another way to expand the SNA lists would be to include more vermin - I want to be able to summon giant bees, giant wasps, giant preying mantises, etc.
I'm not sure if the giants fit thematically for me. Yes they're natural, but they're intelligent humanoids (except they're giants, I know). Personally, I'd rather not have intelligent non-outsider non-elementals on the lists other than fey. Magical beasts that aren't that intelligent are a good fit though, like the purple worm you added.
I haven't had time to fully review, but a few quick comments:
First, the concept is great - I hope something along these lines gets in the final PRPG.
I'm glad to see you added plant creatures to summon nature's ally.
Another way to expand the SNA lists would be to include more vermin - I want to be able to summon giant bees, giant wasps, giant preying mantises, etc.
I'm not sure if the giants fit thematically for me. Yes they're natural, but they're intelligent humanoids (except they're giants, I know). Personally, I'd rather not have intelligent non-outsider non-elementals on the lists other than fey. Magical beasts that aren't that intelligent are a good fit though, like the purple worm you added.
I added the Giants under duress. Otherwise SNA IX would have been quite empty. I added Frost, Fire, and Cloud giants because otherwise Storm Giants would have been alone and quite out of place. There are not many 'Natural' creatures over CR 10. Doesn't make any less sense than a Genie, though.
The Giant versions of Vermin might work under the same reasons as 'Dire' animals, but I think the 'Monstrous' vermin are by definition unnatural. (Bees, ants, beetles, sure, but I don't think Druids need a 45-foot long Scorpion.)
Touch attacks do tend to be pretty good, and the Kolyarut's ray is not subject to SR, since it's an (Su) ability. Would it be fair on SM IX? Or not at all? If it'd be fair on SM IX, I'm sad because that'd mean the Marut gets knocked off. It's it's not safe at any speed, then just cut it from the list.
Since it is a Su, 200 ft range, no save touch attack, I think the Kolyarut needs to be knocked off, because the Marut is definately worthy of SM IX.
Since it is a Su, 200 ft range, no save touch attack, I think the Kolyarut needs to be knocked off, because the Marut is definately worthy of SM IX.
I'm going to agree with you. Done.
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Very nice list.
I particularly like splitting out the non wartrained (no Trip) riding dog from the Trip-doggie. That was pretty awesome.
The list does kind of hammer home to me how darn annoying it is that various low CR critters (like Grigs in particular) have abilities that are so incredibly out of whack for their CR.
Having a 2 hp Grig with crap-all for resistances / defenses being considered a 9th level Summoning because it can cast a spell that has a DC 12 Will save to resist is just painfully awkward, IMO.
But that's a monster design issue, really.
In the case of the Grig, it's an area-affect version of a touch spell, and Spell Resistance doesn't apply (since the Grig's fiddle is (Su)), so on some way it's superior to the spell.
But yeah, the save is laughable. But it's an 8th level non-Druid spell, and there really is no other reason to summon a Grig. (Which is why there is no entry for 'Grig without a Fiddle', even at SNA 1, like there is with Satyrs and Pixies.)
A pixie casts it just like the spell, with a DC 21 save if my math is right, but a caster level of 8 for fighting Spell Resistance.
Ok, I'm fairly new to the d20 system and I've only been playing the 3.5 edition for about a year now, so I'm obviously not an expert by any means.
In order to more effectively scale the potency of the monster summoned, how about this:
The CR of the monster summoned is equal to the spell level + 1/2 the caster level.
Example:
A 4th level wizard casting Summon Monster III could summon a creature with a CR of 5 or less.
Or a lv18 wizard casting Summon Monster IX could summon a creature with a CR of 18.
Obviously, this formula is very broad and doesn't take certain factors into account, so I have no idea how effective or broken it might be.
Would it make the summoned monsters too powerful?
Any thoughts?
Again, I'm somewhat of a newb, so please don't flame me if this idea isn't all that great.
This would make summoned monsters too powerful. For one thing, spell levels are already just about 1/2 caster level, so taking spell level + 1/2 caster level is close to being just 'caster level'. (In practice, it's actually higher, since spell level for Wiz/Clr/Drd is 1/2 caster level + .5.)
Second, it should never be possible to summon a critter with the same CR as the PC unless either a large cost is associated, or the PC is somehow taken out of the battle. Summoning spells should not allow a PC to DOUBLE their combat effectiveness.
Third, CR isn't necessarily accurate for some monsters, since they can have funky spell-like abilies, as I noted above.
Oh, and welcome to the boards. I hope you enjoy your time here. I promise we don't flame newbies here.
Oh, also, Shaitan and Marids should be added to both sets of summon lists if they're in the Pathfinder Bestiary!
I propose the following fixes.
1) Add rules to the Summoning subschool to say that a caster can only have a single Summon effect involving creatures at a time, unless otherwise specified. Of a second one is cast, the first is automatically dismissed. Flavorwise, this can be related to the fact that summoned creatures are compelled to obey, and the caster can only be in tune to one at a time.
I think this is sheer genius, and handily stops a key summoning problem flat. Consider it yoinked for use in my home games, even if it doesn't make it into the formal rules.
Ok, I'm fairly new...
Hi new person! Welcome to the Paizo boards! Have some cookies! *inundates Nicolas with cookies*
Ok, I'm fairly new...Hi new person! Welcome to the Paizo boards! Have some cookies! *inundates Nicolas with cookies*
As long as they're chocolate chip...