In another thread
Here's my take on the effectiveness of summoned monsters:
They don't scale properly. While this isn't exactly true, a decent rule of thumb is that Summon spells get creatures of a CR equal to their spell level.
At 1st level, the Summon is a relevant threat: It's CR 1 at level 1. However, it only sticks around for 1 turn, making it more of a flank generator with a single attack strapped on. (Not bad for a first level spell, though.)
At 2nd level, the summon is still sorta relevant: It's still CR 1, but you get it for two turns, and a CR monster is still relevant against 2nd level ecounters.
At 3rd level, summon is actually pretty good. You get access to Summon Monster II, so you get a CR 2 summon, and it sticks around for 3 rounds. Most fights only last 4-5 rounds, and you had to spend a round summoning it, so it starts to stick around for the whole fight.
After 5th level, the duration increase stops really being relevant. The maximum duration is two whole minutes at 20th level, and it's hard to get two fights in two minutes.
By the time you reach 17th level, you're still only getting stuff of CR 9-11 out of Summon Monster IX. I'd rather use Gate.
Notice the pattern here? The duration scales neatly, but that stops helping much around 5th level. The power of the monsters, on the other hand, only goes up at HALF the rate of character advancement, leading to an ever widening gap between summoned monster and the summoner.
Obviously, there should be a gap, because a summoned monster should not be a replacement for a party member. But the gap shouldn't grow as badly as it does. It doesn't help that frequently summoned critters are templated, and templated monsters frequently have a glass jaw (or are glass cannons). (This is why Druids have an easier time being effective than Conjurers: Summoned Nature's Allies are rarely templated).
I suggest that the summon lists be reworked by shifting monsters downward, and populating the 8th and 9th level lists with some tougher beasts. This shouldn't be a threat to backward compatibility because anything a caster could summon before they can still summon (since you can choose monsters from a lower level list.)
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Ross, your post deals with two aspects of summon spells. The duration and the quality of creature summoned.
I think that the duration is really only an issue, as you've said, at low levels, say 3 or lower. I'd love to see summon spells get a new duration of 3 rounds + 1 round/caster level, or something close to that, so that these spells are more useful at low levels.
As for the creatures on the summon list, the best fix would be to shuffle some of the creatures on the higher level spell lists down a level or two, and add some better creatures for summon VIII and IX. The one problem here (asides from backwards compatibility) is that it would probably be harder to find some good high level options for the summon nature's ally spells.
It would also be nice to see some plant monsters added to the nature's ally lists - treant, shambling mound, etc.
If we're going to remove the Calling effect from Gate (which will probably have to be done because it is WAY overpowered), then the creature re-shuffling that Ross is suggesting will probably be necessary to give the higher level Monster/Nature's Ally spells some additional "oomph". But what creatures would be added to the list at the high end?
IMO these spells need to be reworked very badly. At the very least the list of what each level summons needs to be looked at very closely.
Personally I think the SMI-IX spells are real candidates for being scrapped and reworked from scratch.
Barring that, if the current version is kept I suggest the duration on the spells be changed to concentration+1round/level, this would allow them to be more useful at lower levels, and allow them to be a little more flexible in regards to non-combat uses, rounds are after all terribly short increments of time.
Could one solution to the Templated Creatures issue be increasing the power of the Templates?
As is, they ARE generally pretty underpowered, I could certainly see them increasing in line with the rest of Pathfinder. (more DR/ Resistance, Better Saves, Better Abilities, HD/BAB type increase d8->d10?, ???)
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In, (I want to say) Unearther Arcana, they had this option for Summon Spells where the Summoner chose specific creatures to summon with Each spell level. That was very fascinating concept, that could be used to lessen the amount of different things that can be summoned while making it a little easier for the casters with less choices.
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If we're going to remove the Calling effect from Gate (which will probably have to be done because it is WAY overpowered), then the creature re-shuffling that Ross is suggesting will probably be necessary to give the higher level Monster/Nature's Ally spells some additional "oomph". But what creatures would be added to the list at the high end?
What Calling effect of Gate are you taking about? The ability to call a few outsiders or whatever to come to your aid? How is that any worse than a Summon Spell?
What Calling effect of Gate are you taking about? The ability to call a few outsiders or whatever to come to your aid? How is that any worse than a Summon Spell?
You can summon a Couatl or a Leonal or a Celestial Roc with Summon Monster IX. With Gate, you can summon a Solar, a Pit Fiend, or a Balor. There is a HUGE difference in summoning power between the two spells.
Gate, as it is currently written, is extremely overpowered.
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I did something with the Druid to make Summoned Creatures more Effective, and control their numbers as well.
A Different Application of Nature's Bond, It only applied to creatures summoned with SNA. So as long as you concentrated as a full round action, the duration extended on a SNA, and it got your BAB and Saves as Bonuses. So it scaled fairly well.