I've read so many discussions about the differences between sword-and-board, THW and TWF that I just had to make my own simulations.
I used, for each, a 20 point buy and brought them to level 16. I bought some equipment using the NPC suggested gold and spent almost the same for each. Finally, I used the last feat proposed by Jason.
The conclusions are surprising...
So, here they are:
DW
Toowendher, Fighter 16
AC 25 (Armor +8, Dex +1, Defl. +1, Nat. +1, Training +4)
hp 135
Greatsword +26 (4d6+24/x)
AVG DAM 0,6 x 38 = 22,8
OR Greatsword +31/+26/+21/+16 (2d6+12 (+21 first)/x)
AVG DAM 0,85 x 28 + 1,05 x 19 = 43,8
OR Greatsword +31/+26 (6d6+12 (+21 on first)/x)
AVG DAM 0,85 x 42 + 0,6 x 33 = 55,5
BAB +16/+11/+6/+1 ;
Abilities Str 22, Dex 13, Con 14,
Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10
SQ Weapon Training +4, Armor Training +4
Feats Weapon Focus, Gr. Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec., Gr. Weapon Spec., Overhand Chop, Backswing, Devastating Blow, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike
Possessions Full Plate Armor +3, Greatsword +3, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1
BEST AVG DAM DURING FULL ATTACK VS AC 35: 55,5
Toowaypen, Fighter 16
AC 31 (Armor +11, Dex +4, Defl. +1, Nat. +1, Training +4)
hp 103
Shortsword +26/+21/+16/+11 (1d6+14/x)
AVG DAM 1,1 x 17,5
AND Melee Shortsword +26/+21/+16/+11 (1d6+14/x)
AVG DAM 1,1 x 17,5 = 38,5
OR
Melee Shortsword +26/+21/+16 (3d6+14/x)
AVG DAM 1,05 x 25
AND Melee Shortsword +26/+21/+16 (3d6+14/x)
AVG DAM 1,05 x 25 = 52,5
BAB +16/+11/+6/+1
Abilities Str 18, Dex 19, Con 10,
Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10
SQ Weapon Training +4, Armor Training +4
Feats Weapon Focus, Gr. Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec., Gr. Weapon Spec., TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, Two-weapon Rend
Possessions Full Plate Armor +3, Shortsword +2, Shortsword +2, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1
BEST AVG DAM DURING FULL ATTACK VS AC 35: 52,5
Sohrdenbjerd, Fighter 16
AC 34 (Armor +11, Shield +5, Dex +2, Defl. +1, Nat. +1, Training +4)
hp 103
DR 4/-
Heavy Steel Shield +33/+28/+23/+18 (1d6+19/x)
AVG DAM 2,3 x 22,5 = 51,8
OR Heavy Steel Shield +33/+28 (3d6+19/x)
AVG DAM 1,65 x 30 = 49,5
AND Shortsword +26 (1d6+12/x)
AVG DAM 0,6 x 15,5 = 9,3
BAB +16/+11/+6/+1 ; CMB +
Abilities Str 22, Dex 15, Con 10,
Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10
SQ Weapon Training +4, Armor Training +4
Feats Shield Focus, Shield Master, Shield Mastery, Greater Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Bash, Weapon Focus, Gr. Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec. Gr. Weapon Spec. Shield Slam (Free bull rush), Two-weapon Fighting, Double Slice, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike
Possessions Full Plate Armor +3, Heavy Steel Shield +2, Shortsword +3, Ring of protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1
BEST AVG DAM DURING FULL ATTACK VS AC 35: 61,1
Surprisingly, our shield surfer got a lot out of Shield Master feat, making it worthwhile to use his shield as his primary weapon.
Unless I misinterpreted the description of the feat.
You'll also note the huge impact Improved Vital strike has on some damage output.
The THF has better hp, but the S&B has DR and a much better AC.
Note also that the THF has more feats to spare than the others, for things like Cleave or Great Cleave, which give situational advantages.
I don't know what to think, except that the S&B might have received the love they needed after all?
What do you think?
DW
Nice worked DW.
I would point out the different combat tactics and options available to each beyond damage and AC/DR... Like a S&B can bullrush with the shield everytime he hits giving him some substantial tactical advantage to full attack, move, and move his foes.
Another thought on the sword and boarder -- he has enough feats taht he could double specialize in Short spear and Shield, taking Point blank shot, precise shot, and rapid shot. This would give him the means to also attack at range while being able to two weapon fight without penalties. Doing so would require dropping the shield mastery that grants the DR though.
The feat list I came up with for doing this was:
Point Blank shot
Precise shot
Rapid shot (or quick draw)
Shield bash, shield slam, shield master
TWF & improved
Shield focus & greater
weapon focus, specialization, greater both with short spear and shield
Vital strike and improved vital strike
Penetrating strike and greater penetrating strike
Quick draw might be worth switching out with rapid shot.
Something that hasn't made it into the comparisions yet are archery fighters... but I imagine it's easy to see they are fine.
Primary doesn't mean two handed...
Beyond that it says to "Treat the heavy shield as a one handed martial weapon"... you can two hand any one handed martial weapon. Says so on page 98:
"One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either
the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s
Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a
one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or
1/2 his Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. If a onehanded
weapon is wielded with two hands during melee
combat, add 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to
damage rolls."
Beyond that go read the feats involved he's talking about using the shield for Two WEAPON fighting, not two handed fighting.
Two handed fighting is a trap, as is two weapon fighting without a shield in pathfinder.
Shield mastery allows you to attack with your shield and a weapon:
1. without any two weapon fighting penalties
2. With an enhancement bonus to hit and damage equal to your shield bonus.
Those points are very important. That means you are going to have your full BAB with up to eight attacks (4 from BAB, 3 from two weapon fighting, 1 from haste).
It also means that the attacks from your shield will have up to a +9 enhancement bonus to hit and damage (+2 from shield, + 5 from shield enhancment bonus, + 2 from shield focus and greater shield focus).
If you get a "bashing" + 5 spiked heavy shield, and take close combat as your weapon traing at level 1, and grab the feats mentioned about (weapon focus, specialization, greater focus, greater specialization, shield focus, greater shield focus) you are looking at getting the following out of your shield at level 16:
+9 AC (+2 shield, + 5 enhancement, + 2 shield focus)
+30 to hit (+ 16 BAB, + 3 weapon training, + 2 weapon focuses, + 9 shield bonus)
2d6 + 16 minimum damage (+ 3 weapon training + 4 weapon specializations + 9 shield bonus)
In addition to the fact that if you hit with the shield you automatically get a bullrush attempt from the shield slam feat, and you can still attack with another weapon at it's full bonus.
Thank you Tholas, you are absolutely right on the Weapon Training being +3 (though they all share the same mistake) and on the damage output for the THF.
As for the actual interpretation of the shield bash option, I would tend to also agree with you but would see a clarification needed in the Shield Master feat, as it doesn't state if the shield is to be used as the primary or secondary weapon. But if it is the primary, you couldn't consider it a shield bash.
To serve as a off-hand weapon, and to be able to use it to its full potential, one would have to take the other two-weapon fighting feats, and use a light shield, unless I keep the short sword (light weapon).
I like Abraham's idea of using a spear instead.
Let me rework my calculations and get back to you.
DW
Ok, here are the revised numbers. I took into account that the shield is to be used in the off hand. Also, I had to use a shortsword to be able to use a heavy shield.
You'll note that even though the THF gets the most output, he will also get the most from that CR 16 creature in front of him...
Finally, the S&B had to use a lot of feat to get to that point. Again, Improved Vital Strike makes a huge difference in damage ouput.
But see for yourself, while I hope I didn't miss something!
Sohrdenbjerd, Fighter 16
AC 35 (Armor +11, Shield +5, Dex +3, Defl. +1, Nat. +1, Training +4)
hp 103
DR 4/-
Shortsword +25/+20/+15/+10 (1d6+11)
AVG DAM 0,95 x 14,5 = 13,8
AND Heavy Steel Shield +30/+25 (1d6+18)
AVG DAM 1,35 x 21,5 = 29
OR (Imp. Vital Strike)
Shortsword +25/+20 (3d6+11)
AVG DAM 0,85 x 22 = 18,7
AND Heavy Steel Shield +30/+25 (3d6+18)
AVG DAM 1,35 x 29 = 39,2
BAB +16/+11/+6/+1
Abilities Str 20, Dex 17, Con 10,
Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10
SQ Weapon Training +3 (blades, light) +2 (close), Armor Training +4
Feats Shield Focus, Shield Master, Shield Mastery, Greater Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Bash, Weapon Focus, Gr. Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec. Gr. Weapon Spec. Shield Slam (Free bull rush), Two-weapon Fighting, Improved TWF, Greater TWF, Double Slice, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike
Possessions Full Plate Armor +3, Heavy Steel Shield +2, Shortsword +3, Ring of protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1
S&B: BEST AVG DAM DURING FULL ATTACK VS AC 35: 57,9
Toowendher, Fighter 16
AC 25 (Armor +8, Dex +1, Defl. +1, Nat. +1, Training +4)
hp 135
Greatsword +25 (4d6+24/x)
AVG DAM 0,6 x 38 = 22,8
OR
Greatsword +30/+25/+20/+15 (2d6+19 (+28 first))
AVG DAM 0,8 x 35 + 0,9 x 26 = 51,4
OR (Imp. Vital Strike)
Greatsword +30/+25 (6d6+19 (+28 on first))
AVG DAM 0,8 x 49 + 0,55 x 40 = 61,2
BAB +16/+11/+6/+1 ;
Abilities Str 22, Dex 13, Con 14,
Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10
SQ Weapon Training +3, Armor Training +4
Feats Weapon Focus, Gr. Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec., Gr. Weapon Spec., Overhand Chop, Backswing, Devastating Blow, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike
Possessions Full Plate Armor +3, Greatsword +3, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1
THF: BEST AVG DAM DURING FULL ATTACK VS AC 35: 61,2
Toowaypen, Fighter 16
AC 31 (Armor +11, Dex +4, Defl. +1, Nat. +1, Training +4)
hp 103
Shortsword +25/+20/+15/+10 (1d6+13/x)
AND Melee Shortsword +25/+20/+15 (1d6+13/x)
AVG DAM 0,95 x 16,5 + 0,9 x 16,5 = 30,5
OR (Improved Vital Strike)
Melee Shortsword +25/+20/+15 (3d6+13/x)
AND Melee Shortsword +25/+20 (3d6+13/x)
AVG DAM 0,9 x 25 + 0,85 x 25 = 43,8
BAB +16/+11/+6/+1
Abilities Str 18, Dex 19, Con 10,
Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10
SQ Weapon Training +3, Armor Training +4
Feats Weapon Focus, Gr. Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec., Gr. Weapon Spec., TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, Two-weapon Rend
Possessions Full Plate Armor +3, Shortsword +2, Shortsword +2, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1
TWF: BEST AVG DAM DURING FULL ATTACK VS AC 35: 43,8
Nice comparaisons,
Interesting side-effect of the builds, remaining feats for Fluff / Character choices / Strategic Feats:
Toowendher: Uses 9 feats leaving 7 for customizing,
Toowaypen: Uses 10 feats leaving 6 for customizing,
Sohrdenbjerd: Uses 16 feats leaving ZIP for customizing.
Still, good choices to make.
I also find it disturbing that all builds featuring a viable sword-and-shield character are, in essence, TWF builds. In other words, you're focusing on shield bashing, because there are no decent feats in the Beta to make a shield primarily defensive. So, we're back to THW or TWF as the only two fighting options.
...
there are no decent feats in the Beta to make a shield primarily defensive.
I wouldn't say DR 4/- is "un-decent".
And so what if you can use that shield for something other than damage interception? Why is that bad?
However I would like to see the following added in at some time:
Shield Parry
Prerequisites: Shield Focus
Benefit: Once per round you may parry a successful attack against you with your shield. Subtract your shield's hardness from the damage done then apply the damage to the shield's HP. If the shield's HP is completely depleted you take any left over damage.
Plenty of examples of this in fantasy writing.
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I also find it disturbing that all builds featuring a viable sword-and-shield character are, in essence, TWF builds. In other words, you're focusing on shield bashing, because there are no decent feats in the Beta to make a shield primarily defensive. So, we're back to THW or TWF as the only two fighting options.
I'm inclined to agree. Shield-bashing is nice and all, but it would be nice to see something more in line with the shield being used for defense (as strange as that sounds) for sword & boarders.
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I also find it disturbing that all builds featuring a viable sword-and-shield character are, in essence, TWF builds.
It does seem kinda whacky that you'd blow all of your feats to play a sword and board character that ends up just being a TWF by other means.
On the one hand, the 'dual shielding' fighter idea from Plot & Poison is sexy as all hell.
On the other hand, I'd rather see some more *defensive* uses for shields, rather than ways to make them effective off-hand weapons. (Yet another possible use for iterative attack sacrifices, turning them into extra bonuses to a shield users AC?)
I believe some of them can be found in splabooks. The PHB II has a few nice ones, like Shield Specialization, Shield Ward and one that did the same as Deflect Arrow. It thus leaves some choice if you want to focus on defense (and get a bigger main weapon), or defense-offense.
I stuck with the Beta for my builds though.
That TWF fighter falls a lot behind in comparison. I don't like the idea of Weapon Swap (I can't see it I guess)and I couldn't find anything to improve its output, besides sneaking (which shouldn't be related but still kept in mind).
So to me, so far, the TWF has to have some sneak if he wants to have output. It leaves me with a weird feeling as there really seems, if you take DR and high AC into consideration, like there is no good reason for a pure fighter TWF build.
DW
I also find it disturbing that all builds featuring a viable sword-and-shield character are, in essence, TWF builds.It does seem kinda whacky that you'd blow all of your feats to play a sword and board character that ends up just being a TWF by other means.
On the one hand, the 'dual shielding' fighter idea from Plot & Poison is sexy as all hell.
On the other hand, I'd rather see some more *defensive* uses for shields, rather than ways to make them effective off-hand weapons. (Yet another possible use for iterative attack sacrifices, turning them into extra bonuses to a shield users AC?)
I'm sorry Set but they are far from equivalent. With better damage output and defense (AC and DR), the TWFS&B is by far superior to the TWF, no?
DW
On the other hand, I'd rather see some more *defensive* uses for shields, rather than ways to make them effective off-hand weapons. (Yet another possible use for iterative attack sacrifices, turning them into extra bonuses to a shield users AC?)
Something like:
Vital Defense: remove one attack for DR 2/- for the round.
and
Improved Vital Defense: remove two attacks for DR 4/- for the round.
Nothing to do with the shield, but perhaps a nice option? The fighter uses those attacks to make blocks.
Just an idea.
DW
Not to mention the tactical advantages of the TWFS&B.... shield slam is almost as nice as shield master.
Heck change thange that sword to a shortspear and that's about all you need as a fighter... range, close in, piercing and bashing damage. All with good damage and great defense.
To serve as a off-hand weapon, and to be able to use it to its full potential, one would have to take the other two-weapon fighting feats, and use a light shield, unless I keep the short sword (light weapon).
There are a number of light, throwable weapons out there. Have you considered a throwing axe, light hammer or star knife as an alternative to the shortsword? I'm sure there are others, but I'm at work without my books right now.
Dreaming Warforged,
I think Set's point wasn't that your 2WF/Shield builds were "exactly equivalent",
but that since the Shield build is built around having 2WF/Imp.2WF/G.2WF,
it essentially IS a 2WF-sub build (just focusing on a specific weapon (Shield).
In fact, given the huge number of Feats necessary for it, it's likely it'd develop rather similarly to the 2WF build early-on, rather than completely gimp offense until the upper levels. So it really seems more of a question whether Shields are the "optimal" build for a 2WF vs. the 6(?) extra Feats they could spend elsewhere if they're not bothering with Shields.
So how would a Shield build look WITHOUT Imp. 2WF?
Let's just assume it's damage is lower, which is pretty reasonable.
You could get Imp. Bullrush to improve the effectiveness of your Bullrushes vs. Monsters/strong melee opponents, which helps keep opponents away from where you don't want them. ...Maybe Defensive Maneuvers (to go with Defensive theme). Shall Not Pass (combo with Lunge?) seems a good one if you want to play a "Defensive" Warrior controlling the Battlefield. (Bullrushes-as-AoO's are especially effective in tight quarters/ narrow bridges)
I feel like Armor & Shields are getting an overhaul to give Medium/Heavy Armor & Shields more benefits to balance out their Armor Check Penalties, which would likely be higher AC and/or DR/Miss Chance, making a Shield build inherently more Defensively viable.
As for the non-Shield builds, I think their SIGNIFIGANT extra Feats are a factor...
Improved Critical & Critical Focus/ Auto-Confirm Barbarian Power to start, just damage-wise.
And given the plethora of Non-Damage Feats (Imp. Init, "Step Up", Combat Reflexes, Imp. Trip, Greater Trip (giving 3.5 Functionality), Spring Attack, etc, etc...), they seem like they definitely have alot to offer.
Dreaming Warforged,
I think Set's point wasn't that your 2WF/Shield builds were "exactly equivalent",
but that since the Shield build is built around having 2WF/Imp.2WF/G.2WF,
it essentially IS a 2WF-sub build (just focusing on a specific weapon (Shield).In fact, given the huge number of Feats necessary for it, it's likely it'd develop rather similarly to the 2WF build early-on, rather than completely gimp offense until the upper levels. So it really seems more of a question whether Shields are the "optimal" build for a 2WF vs. the 6(?) extra Feats they could spend elsewhere if they're not bothering with Shields.
Perhaps it wasn't Set's point, nevertheless, I started this thread to show how a defensive build could be made that also allowed for pretty good average damage.
In other words, that some of the new feats of the Beta (and more recently of the Paizo team) balanced things out by giving some to the S&B, compared to what the THF got.
And don't think that all his feats are used. I took wathever was best to build on that shield. Many other combinations with slightly different flavors can be made, mainly bringing down his defense. Instead of going with the shortsword,one could choose a thrown weapon and pick up different feats, or a light flail and go the trip route, etc.
Again, if you're talking average damage ouput, I believe that the S&B can hold his ground, if he uses two feats, and builds up his Dex, for TWF and ITWF. And he certainly does better in all categories than that TWF with two shortswords.
DW
Why no spiked shield for Sohrdenbjerd?
- I discovered that Shields are listed as martial weapons on the weapons table. So maybe one could really wield a shield as a main weapon. Imagine a spiked heavy shield of bashing -> 2d6 dmg ... crazy.
- At level 16 Toowaypen and Sohrdenbjerd could afford a Sun Blade. Imho cheesy and your DM might not allow it.
- Why Dex 19 and only Str 18 for Toowaypen? Ok, he gets some more AC but this stat distribution is seriously limiting his damage output.
Yeah that was the basis of my benny build and something I mentioned ealier...
That spiked heavy shield of bashing is 2d6+4+shield enhancement bonuses. I mentioned this in one of my above posts. However it's good taht things get seen. The TWFS&B build can do some really nasty stuff, especially since shield master turns the shield's enhancment bonus into a weapon enhancment bonus.
Some more data for Toowendher. I added Power Attack, Powerful Critical and their needed prerequisite feats to the build.
Please note that I didn't factor in criticals. So take the comparison with Devastating Blow with a grain of salt. I'll see if I can find the time and energy to extend my calculation script after Christmas. As a rule of thumb add aproximately 10% to the damage output....
Thanks for the new input Tholas! It is quite true that Devastating blow can do a lot for a fighter who has to move to get to his target, or to bypass DR. There is nothing of that sort for the TWFS&B and the TWF unfortunately, though it might not be their focus.
Interesting comment about the difference between Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike.
But the actual efficiency of any combat feat is, of course, dependent on many factors like the actual AC (are those third and fourth attacks lost anyway?), DR (what's the point of doing ten times 11 hp of damage to a DR 10 monster?) and terrain (movement and standard action can strain a lot of fighters!).
Of course, a fighter can pile up many styles, but not that many.
As to the decision of not using certain items, it was all so that we could actually compare them. So no special item, no stat boosting.
Of course, those would widen the differences already present.
I had to give that TWF a Dex of 19 to allow him his Greater TWF.
One final thought: the feat that made a great difference for the TWFS&B was Shield Master, available at level 11. For the THF, it was Backswing,
available at level 6 and improving at level 11. But for the TWF, ther is no real equivalent, except perhaps Two-weapon Rend, also available at level 11, which I'm not sure how to take into account, except perhaps by simply adding 5.5 + 1.5 STR to the average damage. It doesn't make a big difference though, especially against DR.
TWF need a feat, with a BAB+11 prerequisite, that allow them to dish out more damage to beat DR. Something like double strike, where the two attacks are focused and taken as one?
DW
Hmm, so I could build a shield fighter with improved unarmed strike chain, chain mail, and a +x adamantine ranged heavy shield of parrying collision? And he wouldn't be a resource drain? I like it.
Hmmm, obviously, we don't have the same books. Are those real add-on for shields, or are you just pulling my leg?
DW
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Hmm, so I could build a shield fighter with improved unarmed strike chain, chain mail, and a +x adamantine ranged heavy shield of parrying collision? And he wouldn't be a resource drain? I like it.Hmmm, obviously, we don't have the same books. Are those real add-on for shields, or are you just pulling my leg?
DW
Expanded Psionic Handbook modifications.
to sum up, Ranged (can be thrown with a 30' ranged increment and returns to thrower, 1d8 for large, 1d6 for small/buckler)
Parrying (Weapon enhancement, adds to AC when wielded)
Collision (becomes heavier at point of impact, doing additional damage)
see www.d20srd.org for more details
ranged is like a combined throwing and returning feature for shields.
If I remember correctly multiplying the chances of the two attacks should get you there: Say both attack have a 65% chance of hitting the target you have a 42.25%(0.65*0.65) chance of applying Two-Weapon Rend damage.
You'd need to multiply the chance of *not* hitting with one weapon on any attacks, then the chances of *not* hitting with the other weapon on any attacks, and multiply the inverse chances by each other.
For instance.. with 3 primary hand attacks and two off hand attacks, both starting at +30, vs. AC 35:
Primary: 20% (chance of not hitting with first attack) * 45% * 70% = 6.3%
Offhand: 20% * 45% = 9%
Rend: 93.7% (100-6.3) * 91% = 85.2% of rending.
or vs. AC 40:
Primary: 45% * 70% * 95% = 30%
Offhand: 45% * 70% = 31.5%
Rend: 70% * 68.5% = 48% of rending.
Overhand Chop and Devastating Blow are addressing that problem but imho Devastating Blow is overpowered and Overhand Chop too lame.
I completely agree with you. DB only puts the crit multipliers back in fashion, for metagaming purposes only IMO. Your suggestion of having OC scale is a good one I believe.
Actually that was brought up first by Samuel Leming in this thread.
Thanks for the link! I posted some of my results for THF using my brand new calculator taking critical and confirmation into account. The results are quite interesting and support Samuel Leming's statement.
Yea, I forgot that prerequisite. I just wonder if it might be better to dump strength completely and go for Weapon Finesse.
Good point, although I suspect the loss in damage will be staggering, DR or no DR.
You'd need to multiply the chance of *not* hitting with one weapon on any attacks, then the chances of *not* hitting with the other weapon on any attacks, and multiply the inverse chances by each other.
Thanks! Very helpful. I'll se if I can prepare results for our three fighters using suggestions from all of you (Weapon finesse, crit effective weapons, energy weapons for TWF, etc.).
DW
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Expanded Psionic Handbook modifications.
Parrying (Weapon enhancement, adds to AC when wielded)
Huh, I'd been looking for something that would allow a person to enchant a shield *and* a shield spike without breaking the bank...
This isn't quite what I was looking for, but is neat, nonetheless.
(I've never been fond of the extreme costs to enchant both ends of a quarterstaff, or a shield / shield spike or armor / armor spike seperately.)
Thanks for the link! I posted some of my results for THF using my brand new calculator taking critical and confirmation into account. The results are quite interesting and support Samuel Leming's statement.
You got me interested, so far I'm far too lazy to expand my current 10 lines bash script into something more usable. Does your calculator have a graphical interface or is it script based? Any chance of sharing it?
You'd need to multiply the chance of *not* hitting with one weapon on any attacks, then the chances of *not* hitting with the other weapon on any attacks, and multiply the inverse chances by each other.Oops, silly me. Thanks for the correction.
It's an Excel file. Should be easy to adapt.
Give me your email and I'll send it to you.
DW