I really like the concept of the ritual as used in 4th edition. Anyone else like it? How about for Pathfinder?
I liked the concept of the Incantations that was introduced in Unearthed Arcana (3.5) and would love to see more of them in products, but I'm not sure the core rulebook would be the place for them.
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I very much liked when Relics & Rituals introduced 'True Rituals,' and then again the basics behind Unearthed Arcana's Incantations.
It was an interesting solution, to make the Wizard (and Clerics) non-combat affecting abilities into longer-term rituals, while keeping their 'spells' basically limited to 'pew-pew, lazors.'
I'm not sure if I would go quite as far as they did, but there are a few cases where I would *much* prefer Incantations to 'spells' that could be prepared. Raise Dead magic, in particular, I'd like to see limited to;
a) Spells that only work within a few rounds of death, making them primarily good for adventurers, but *much* less likely to utterly change the dynamic of the society.
b) Incantations that require the stars to be right, assembled congregations, rare reagents, etc, etc. allowing for them to be used more as plot devices (Oh no! The cult of the Crimson Plague are attempting to ressurect Blood Empress Malgazora! They've gathered relic X and assembled their sacrifices, now they just need the blade that ended his life, and your mission is to defend the temple that currently is protecting it from their assassins!) and less as setting-disrupting assumptions (Yeah, we assassinated the King. Again. Maybe we should assassinate every 9th level Cleric within 1000 miles first, next time?).
A few spells, like Identify, are practically already Incantations, taking non-typical amounts of time and / or components.
I like rituals, but I don't like seeing the wizard lose all its wonderful power as a price. Essentially, rituals are just scrolls that anyone can use.
So here's my idea.
Let anyone use any scroll without a Use Magic Device check, and have tomes that let you cast it over and over again. Make the casting time 10 minutes like most 4e rituals. If the spell is on your spell list, or if you succeed a Use Magic Device check, then you can cast it at the normal casting time.
rituals should be limited to arcane PCs
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I like rituals, but I don't like seeing the wizard lose all its wonderful power as a price. Essentially, rituals are just scrolls that anyone can use.
I was unaware of that aspect of 4E! I definitely wouldn't want any commoner to be able to ressurect someone by going through the motions.
If I were to use a Ritual / Incantation system to make certain game mechanics (like resurrection) into non-spells, they'd remain limited to the appropriate classes.
I like rituals, but I don't like seeing the wizard lose all its wonderful power as a price. Essentially, rituals are just scrolls that anyone can use.I was unaware of that aspect of 4E! I definitely wouldn't want any commoner to be able to ressurect someone by going through the motions.
If I were to use a Ritual / Incantation system to make certain game mechanics (like resurrection) into non-spells, they'd remain limited to the appropriate classes.
which I think would be great
No thank you, if I wanted fourth edition to corrupt my 3.5 I'd use Tome of Swords.
No thank you, if I wanted fourth edition to corrupt my 3.5 I'd use Tome of Swords.
I don't like the 4e magic system. This one idea I do like however
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Disclaimer: 3.x player here, opinions coloured accordingly
I like rituals, within reason.
In a high magic setting, they allow everyone to have some kind of potential oomph. They also give the DMs a lot of hand waving ability. "How did all the rogues have a shadow step ability? Ritual."
It also allows one shot spells and quest options. "Well to stop wizard X, you need to complete the ritual summoning of MacGuffin. How do you do that? It is said the ritual is written in the ruins of a lost city..."
In low magic settings, rituals are even better. Harry's 'little Chicago' and binding circle are examples of rituals in the Dresden Files, but even Thomas can manage a tracking spell/ritual and Butters (who AFAWK, is a normal human) can manage a warding circle as a ritual.
but if translated to Pathfinder, I would limit rituals to arcane PCs
Just to clarify, not just any ol' commoner can us a ritual. A.) You need the ritual caster feat. B.) You need to have spent 8 hours mastering the ritual as well. C.) You still have to purchase the ritual and pay the component costs, obtain focuses etc.
With ritual scrolls anyone can use em (but they still need the components and foci), but it's really easy to limit what's available as far as scrolls go.
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Doesn't Unearthed Arcana have some ritual rules? I'd probably keep them out of the core rules, particularly given that aa 3.5 version is already available for those that like that system.
Yeah, they're called Incantations.
Pretty cool notion. Basically rules for those NPC plot device spells that pretty much every adventure has in them somewhere.
'How does the Elder Sign drive everyone in Pirateville crazy? Incantation!'
'How will the cultists resurrect the Muttering Despot? Incantation!'
'How will the party use the Crook of Rao to close the portal to the Abyss? Incantation!'
'How do we get the fourth pyramid of the God-Kings to appear in our dimension so that we can pillage it? Incantation!'
Disclaimer: 3.x player here, opinions coloured accordingly
I like rituals, within reason.
In a high magic setting, they allow everyone to have some kind of potential oomph. They also give the DMs a lot of hand waving ability. "How did all the rogues have a shadow step ability? Ritual."
It also allows one shot spells and quest options. "Well to stop wizard X, you need to complete the ritual summoning of MacGuffin. How do you do that? It is said the ritual is written in the ruins of a lost city..."
In low magic settings, rituals are even better. Harry's 'little Chicago' and binding circle are examples of rituals in the Dresden Files, but even Thomas can manage a tracking spell/ritual and Butters (who AFAWK, is a normal human) can manage a warding circle as a ritual.
You don't NEED a written rule or mechanic to do this!
Just have a plot device "ritual" as part of the story... "During the heroic rescue Princess Issielle was slain by the mercenaries that kidnapped her from the Abbey. The bishop tells the heroes that in order to raise her from the dead he needs the heroes need to gather certain reagents from the nearby village and from the 'forbidden caverns' in abandoned mines outside of the village. They will also have to retrieve the Tome of Spirits from haunted ruins of the ancient keep that protected the mines when they were in use centuries ago." There, done. The ritual is now set as a story device, certain items have to be obtained (conveniently this is set as an adventure for the party to experience)... No need for mechanics and rules for something that ultimately won't influence much outside of the story elements anyway...
And for those things that do influence mechanical elements - do it much the same way... Just don't make a major "spells per day" kind of deal out of it... Either allow, or disallow, certain items and reagents to be available for the casting of whatever "rituals" you want to include in the game as you see fit (as DM, of course).
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You don't NEED a written rule or mechanic to do this!
I resoundingly agree, and want this to be copied into half a dozen threads.
So many things in this game don't need rules, pretty much anything outside of combat should be more subjective, and even in combat I think the DM can and should rule in favour of fun over a rule any day of the week.
I do prefer if the DMs behave in a consistent manner, just because player expectation, and then a change of that expectation falls under the "not fun" column, but beyond that, the rules are only their to help facilitate.
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You don't NEED a written rule or mechanic to do this!I resoundingly agree, and want this to be copied into half a dozen threads.
So many things in this game don't need rules, pretty much anything outside of combat should be more subjective, and even in combat I think the DM can and should rule in favour of fun over a rule any day of the week.
This position, that anything outside of combat doesn't need any rules anyway, suggests that you are more of a fan of purely combat games, that get rid of 'useless' rules like profession?
We don't *need* rules for anything. We could sit around doing a round-robin narrative game, where one person suggests a challenging situation or premise and the various other players state ways in which their characters could either deal with the issue themselves or cooperate with the other players to resolve it communally, with no mechanics at all, other than Jason saying that his character is a 'mighty swordsman, trained at a legendary salle des armes' and Kelly says that her character is a 'hot-tempered pyromancer-priestess, skilled in all aspects of flame, from cautery to combustion.'
But if we *are* going to have discrete combat maneuvers and numbers determining who is more accurate or which attacks or more damaging or what 'spells' the pyromancer is capable of casting, then other mechanics that affect the characters and setting, such as raise dead, should have some consistent mechanics applied as well, instead of being left frustratingly inconsistent.
Player - "But Evil King Bob just had to get together a bunch of diamonds to be raised from the dead. I've got a bunch of diamonds, and way more power and supporters than Evil King Bob had, why can't Nice Queen Jane be raised the same way?"
DM - "Uh, plot says that Nice Queen Jane stays dead. Evil King Bob coming pack was a plot point..."
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You don't NEED a written rule or mechanic to do this!
Just have a plot device "ritual" as part of the story... "During the heroic rescue Princess Issielle was slain by the mercenaries that kidnapped her from the Abbey. The bishop tells the heroes that in order to raise her from the dead he needs the heroes need to gather certain reagents from the nearby village and from the 'forbidden caverns' in abandoned mines outside of the village. They will also have to retrieve the Tome of Spirits from haunted ruins of the ancient keep that protected the mines when they were in use centuries ago." There, done. The ritual is now set as a story device, certain items have to be obtained (conveniently this is set as an adventure for the party to experience)... No need for mechanics and rules for something that ultimately won't influence much outside of the story elements anyway...
And the players reply "Why do you need all that crap? Why don't you just let us cast Raise Dead? Seriously, it'll only take a minute.".
I've no problem with making certain spells into longer rituals, but it should be done consistently across the board, regardless of whether the person casting or being raised is a PC or NPC.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Snorter, I think Set has advocated in the past making raise dead an incantation, instead of a spell, so he's consistant.
I'd not mind seeing incantations being part of a core rules, taking a lot of the 'big spells' out of combat settings. It won't happen, but a 'incantations of Golarion' would be a nice source book.
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Snorter, I think Set has advocated in the past making raise dead an incantation, instead of a spell, so he's consistant.
Oh, don't worry, I wasn't taking issue with him. Apologies if it seemed that way. It was the genre in general.
I just roll my eyes when a scenario relies on an intricate, convoluted ritual, which takes "however long the PC's take to get to the final chamber", to produce an effect that any PC of the BBEG's level could carry out in a few minutes or less.
Returning the Arch-Tyrant to life?
Check.
Got the body?
Check.
Still got all his bits?
Check.
Raise Dead. Casting time, one minute.
Summoning your dark and terrible God to wreak his vengeance on the nations of the Earth?
Check.
Got 1000 spare xp?
Check.
Gate. Casting time one standard action.
"What's taking you guys so long? Cut out all the oogly-boogly, and just cast your damn spell. I've got a Solar holding on Line One."
I really like the concept of the ritual as used in 4th edition. Anyone else like it? How about for Pathfinder?
No. Not in a box, not with a fox, not in the rain, not on a train.
When it takes 10 minutes to summon a bird(animal messenger) to send a message across town something is wrong. You could've walked there in less than 5! Unless of course you're incapacitated or immobilized, at which point you don't have the ability to set up and perform a ritual. Just say NO.
When it takes 10 minutes to summon a bird(animal messenger) to send a message across town something is wrong. You could've walked there in less than 5! Unless of course you're incapacitated or immobilized, at which point you don't have the ability to set up and perform a ritual. Just say NO.
well, I don't want to copy WoTC's rules on it, but I do like the concept of a ritual
well, I don't want to copy WoTC's rules on it, but I do like the concept of a ritual
yes. ^^
No. Not in a box, not with a fox, not in the rain, not on a train.
When it takes 10 minutes to summon a bird(animal messenger) to send a message across town something is wrong. You could've walked there in less than 5! Unless of course you're incapacitated or immobilized, at which point you don't have the ability to set up and perform a ritual. Just say NO.
The Animal Messenger ritual is designed to deliver messages over long distances. It can potentially allow for days of travel. Oh, and it unerringly finds its target, so it also is useful in those situations where you don't want to have to track a moving person down to get them a message.
If you need a message delivered across town, walk. If you need to alert the general back in the capital that the necromancer's undead army will be at his gates in half a week, use Animal Messenger.
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We use ritual magic in my campaigns but more like the rules from Spellbound than 4e. Except we substitute temporary spell levels or CON (for non-casters) loss for the "currency" of the ritual. Since ritual magic is above and beyond the magic allocated by the normal rules there needs to be a cost to balance it.