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Since there's been so much talk of BAB/level increasing much faster than AC at a given level (not to mention all the talk of how expensive AC is), how about just increasing the base armor bonuses conferred by the various pieces of armor? Maybe just increase them all by +2. Padded would now be +3 and full plate would be +10. If +2 doesn't cut it, how about a different number? Or perhaps a sliding scale?
With regard to backward compatibility, this would be a relatively simple change. Depending on what type of armor the bad guy is using, just plus the AC up the appropriate amount.
Just some thoughts.
-Skeld
You could also give a flat bonus according to the armor type :
+1 to light armor
+2 to medium armor
+3 to heavy armor
I agree these need to be looked at, though I think something more than a flat AC bump is called for.
I'm really looking at these from the perspective that IT COSTS FEATS to be able to wear Med/Heavy Armor.
(or from Class Features which otherwise grant the same ability as the Feats)
Likewise, why would some players actually choose to spend a Feat to use a "better" Shield?
I'm looking at this from the perspective that these are not just "pure positive" Feats allowing higher AC Armor,
but those heavier Armors come with HEAVIER PENALTIES, including REDUCING MOVEMENT SPEED.
In order to balance this, I think introducing "unique" qualities BESIDES Armor Class to the heavier Armors & Shields would provide a good enough benefit so that they're worth a Feat or 2 (and Armor Check penalties.)
I'm thinking something along the lines of Med/Heavy Armor introducing DR, and Med/Heavy Shields introducing Miss Chance%.
Having "secondary" defensive benefits like these I think is more interesting, and ultimately, effective, than just another bump to AC .
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I agree these need to be looked at, though I think something more than a flat AC bump is called for.
I'm really looking at these from the perspective that IT COSTS FEATS to be able to wear Med/Heavy Armor.
(or from Class Features which otherwise grant the same ability as the Feats)
Likewise, why would some players actually choose to spend a Feat to use a "better" Shield?I'm looking at this from the perspective that these are not just "pure positive" Feats allowing higher AC Armor,
but those heavier Armors come with HEAVIER PENALTIES, including REDUCING MOVEMENT SPEED.
In order to balance this, I think introducing "unique" qualities BESIDES Armor Class to the heavier Armors & Shields would provide a good enough benefit so that they're worth a Feat or 2 (and Armor Check penalties.)I'm thinking something along the lines of Med/Heavy Armor introducing DR, and Med/Heavy Shields introducing Miss Chance%.
Having "secondary" defensive benefits like these I think is more interesting, and ultimately, effective, than just another bump to AC .
I still have not been convinced that AC needs to increase. However, I do like these secondary benefits. DR for heavier armors is my favorite to add, but adds another layer of bookkeeping- granted not much but more anyway.
Miss Chance% and Damage Reduction ARE simple, and will be dealt with at mid-level play (at the latest) ANYWAYS.
Adding those effects to Armor Types means published Stat Blocks can be used WITHOUT modifying AC numbers,
just adding Miss%/DR where appropriate (like Miss% is applied situationally in Darkness, or Buffs provide DR/?)
My favorite simple fix that came out of one of the long, heated armor threads was the addition of an additional chance to fumble attack rolls against various armors.
Like weapons have variable crit ranges, it could be appropriate for armors to have variable fumble ranges. For example, Hide armor could have a miss range of 1-3, so that instead of there being a flat 5% miss chance, for an opponent in armor there might be something between the base 5% (1 -- Chain Shirt, Breastplate), 10% (1-2 -- Chainmail, etc.) to 15% (1-3 -- Hide, Full Plate). This provides certain incentives to use certain armor types which might otherwise be considered suboptimal, and makes the base armor substrate have some meaning once the core AC of the armor has less meaning than other sources of AC.
The actual miss ranges numbers should be customized, and tailored to the appropriate armors. By folding it into attack role resolution, it keeps the probability relatively flat, which is not something which could be said of adding additional miss chance percentages separately.
Miss chance may be simple to add, but it's not simple to use. I had a player with a Cloak of Minor Displacement for literally years, and we very very rarely remembered to roll that miss chance, even in the worst of situations (and trust me, I attacked him *lots* - he's a Bard :).
DR...
I really think Medium armor with DR 1/- and Heavy Armor with DR 2/- would be perfectly appropriate. Simple and mild. Tacks on a "should mithril get it" question of course.
I don't know if that will help in this topic, but as a DM i am using the Damage Reduction from armors and shields, as given in Unearthed Arcana (DR = AC bonus/2), but without the AC reduction.
If you think that's too much, you can give DR1 for light, DR2 for medium and DR3 for heavy armor.
I don't personally use the AC adjustments i suggested in a post above, although i consider they would be fair, but that's because i already use some various armor types and qualities (like masterwork), which already modify the basic AC.
That works, and does have simplicity advantages (one attack roll like you mention),
though the fact that Miss Chance% and DR are already in the game and widely understood is also it's own type of simplicity.
I guess I like the Shield=Miss Chance/ Armor=DR distinction, but having them BOTH work as DR *IS* probably the #1 simplest way.
(I just liked the idea of a Heavy Shield's Miss Chance having unique effectiveness at high levels where Monsters' Attack Bonus outscale anything bar massive AC inflation. And it paves the way for a better "Sword & Board" Fighter (without wonky Shield Bash builds) - It would be reasonable for certain Shield Feats to INCREASE the Shield Miss Chance%, for instance, or this could be feature of Fighter Armor Training...)
You could also give a flat bonus according to the armor type :
+1 to light armor
+2 to medium armor
+3 to heavy armor
This imo would be nearly perfect. One small suggestion, increase base speed of medium armors to 30 ft(happy barbarian) but reduce max run to x3. This way a foot bound fighter can still have good but not great mobility. Heavy armors w/ the increase suggested above will still be slow but hard to hit. anyway, the heavy armors often were mounted to begin with, negating the move problem.
Someone smarter than i, pick up the ball with this and roll with it. We tanks need some help with the +20 dex, mithral chain shirt wearing barbarians!
Someone smarter than i, pick up the ball with this and roll with it. We tanks need some help with the +20 dex, mithral chain shirt wearing barbarians!
Higher AC is gotten through light armor.
Higher AC is gotten through no armor.High AC characters wear light or no armor.
Those are the three issues I have with heavier armor at this time.
And:
To-hit quickly outscales defenses, especially with the changes to PA.
Armor needs re-examined. :)
As I have had the opportunity to wear a real chain mail (well in D&D terms, it was more like a chain shirt but knees long) with mail cap, it was 40lb+10lb for the cap, and it's really something to move with it.
So allowing normal speed would be really unreallistic.
Historically, bludgeoning weapons were the best against plate type armor, since slashing could rarely go through this kind of armor.
So I'm in favor of DR.
I would like to ask that historically, plate armor was easier to wear than chain mail.
Plate armor's weight rests on different part of the body which makes it seem lighter than chain mail even if plate is heavier. With a chain mail, you have all the weight on the shoulders, and it gets you fatigued really quick.
You can (and should) belt your chain mail. It's period, and you take some of the weight off the shoulders and put it on the hips that way. If you "bunch" the chain mail over the belt the weight distrubtion is every better, but then you are going to make some noise as you walk/run as that "belly" of chain mail jumps.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On the above discussion about which is better for AC light or heavy armor, don't forget that every point of dex you have costs you something somewhere. Either stat points at the start of the game, stat bumps as you level, or gp as you buy stat boosters. If you want other equipment and don't want to have to blow everything on just your AC you are better off getting the heavier armors.
20 point stat buy
Cleric
Str 14 Dex 11 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 12
5/1/2/0/10/2
Barbarian:
Str 16 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 8
10/2/10/0/0/-2
Paladin:
Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 16
5/2/5/0/-2/10
Ranger:
Str 14 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 11 Cha 10
5/10/2/2/1/0
Rogue:
Str 10 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 9
0/17/2/2/0/-1
The only ones there that are going to pump Dex are the Ranger and the Rogue. Everyone else has more reason to pump up the stats that are useful to them.
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I don't know if that will help in this topic, but as a DM i am using the Damage Reduction from armors and shields, as given in Unearthed Arcana (DR = AC bonus/2), but without the AC reduction.
If you think that's too much, you can give DR1 for light, DR2 for medium and DR3 for heavy armor.I don't personally use the AC adjustments i suggested in a post above, although i consider they would be fair, but that's because i already use some various armor types and qualities (like masterwork), which already modify the basic AC.
we tried this too, with DR. We tried several variants of using AC and DR. All of them increased the time necessary for combat. The worst we had was no AC adjustment and just add DR. Combats routinely went 20 rounds unless a caster was able to do the damage.
Dropping AC to go with DR helped some but was still over 10 rounds.
While I like the idea of DR and miss chances, in play it just made combat last longer.
besides still not sure AC needs to be messed with.
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Someone smarter than i, pick up the ball with this and roll with it. We tanks need some help with the +20 dex, mithral chain shirt wearing barbarians!Higher AC is gotten through light armor.
Higher AC is gotten through no armor.
High AC characters wear light or no armor.Those are the three issues I have with heavier armor at this time.
And:
To-hit quickly outscales defenses, especially with the changes to PA.
Armor needs re-examined. :)
Can you please show the math for this? How exactly do you figure High AC characters wear no armor? I have cranked out numbers in other topics that show this just is not true.
You can (and should) belt your chain mail. It's period, and you take some of the weight off the shoulders and put it on the hips that way. If you "bunch" the chain mail over the belt the weight distrubtion is every better, but then you are going to make some noise as you walk/run as that "belly" of chain mail jumps.
You could do that but it will not be as efficient as an armor designed to be waist strapped I think. Also plate armor are also strapped on each limb. It will always be better than chain mail.
Can you please show the math for this? How exactly do you figure High AC characters wear no armor? I have cranked out numbers in other topics that show this just is not true.
The issue's been admitted, generally, and the reason that medium and heavy armor AC in PF isn't going up has to do with the paperwork it'd involve: the number of NPCs who'll need updated, primarily.
So the solution has to be something different.
DR's been proposed, but voted out as well as several have voted its otherwise impracticality.
So the question is: what now?
Which should be a topic for another thread. :)