|
I know this comment will seem like I peed in James Jacob's Post Toasties, but I'd like to see Pathfinder break away from the notion that game designers should be "rendering" PrCs for DMs and players. I'd like to see James, Jason, Sean, & co., sit down and develop a 5 page layout of all the powers, added feats & bonuses that could exist for a custom PrC - - then publish a section on how to build a custom PrC for YOUR campaign, whatever and where ever that might be.
If I understood you corectly, your suggesting that they have a chapter detailing out all the different abilities the DM could use to create a Prestige Class and then essentially pick their own in order to create a class. If this is what your saying, I think it's a great idea. Excellent for helping DM's customize Prestige Classes for their world, oh, say like Greyhawk.
The little bit I did of creating my own Prestige Class was for a Giant Slayer. What I did is make a base template for the class and then modify the abiliites somewhat per region in Greyhawk, allowing more logical differences in combating giants throughout the Flanaess based on the terrain. Not only did the Prestige Class vary according to the terrain but it also created a unified Giant Slayer organization plus give a little ooomph to geographical regions as well.
Hey Eileen! Nice to hear from you. And, as always, I get a kick out of the passion with which you are devoted to Greyhawk. Nice job, keeping the dream that was Greyhawk alive in this crazy 4e economy (if you get my mixed metaphors)...
But YES, exactly! I am suggesting a break through in the way PAZIO can present options and TEACH the art of prestige-buidling as a story vehicle. Perhaps the DM only reveals the benefits and powers level-by-level, adding excitement back into the game (versus the splat that players typically read and select (or in some cases expect or demand)). First, lets put the "prestige" back into the position of Gamemaster (GM/DM) and build a new culture where GMs partner with players to focus once again on actually playing characters, not shallow silhouttes nor burlesqued charactures. The powers and abilities would be thus hand selected by either 1) the players interest in the campaign world or 2) the GMs selection based on the character's development direction. In this way the GM acts as a coach. Hell, this could be the NEW MOTIVATOR that XPs has failed to be (but that's a side thought altogether).
This modality of play would not break any conceits that have not been with d&d in its 30+ years of history. From day ONE, character development and integration into the fabric of the GM's campaign world has been part and parcel of the game. Third edition (a la v.3.5) lays out many prestige options. And, a wise editor-in-chief will recognize its high time to integrate our new Pathfinder edition BETTER than the game's previous stewards ever did.
I must head to a meeting now. But yes, Eileen - that EXACTLY what I'm suggesting. How cool would that be?
Are PrC's required to have an enjoyable 3.5 experience? Nope. Sure some classes are more prone to taking PrCs to add some varity to them (fighters) and other have so much going on they don't need them (Druids, Monks). I have tun games with people using PrCs (Elemental Sevant and Storm something or other). I have played characters that took them (my barbarian took Bear Warrior and my current Cleric will be taking a modified Alienist PrC).
Yes some of them are build for per mechanics fixes and other really do add flavor. I would say that not all of them need organizations to back them up and are just a natural evolution of character based on in game events that shape them. I was learly of them when I first saw them but when use properly they do add a lot to a character and to role playing, but that aren't the end all to beat all. I think people should feel free to use them if they want them and tweak them if they feel they need to. They are just another option like feats. If you don't like a particular feat then don't take it, its the same with PrCs. People who take three different PrCs to min/max their characters are what can cause problems not the PrC system. Any system can be abused, it's not the systems fault its the abusers fault.
Any system can be abused, it's not the systems fault its the abusers fault.
Can't it be both?
Any system can be abused, it's not the systems fault its the abusers fault.Can't it be both?
Only if you assume that it's possible to design a perfectly balanced system that also allows significant non-fluff character customization. And we're still waiting for that RPG after 30+ years.
|
I had developed a some rules allowing the characters to acquire the abilities of the Prestige Class one by one but rather than taking another class and cutting into the class levels, they would take an XP cut. The more abilities they took (one with each forthcoming level) they would take a bigger XP cut in the long run.
There is a precedent for this; essentially, this was what happened in 1st Edition, for the Ranger and the Paladin.
Rather than being designed to be Fighters who swapped abilities (a la D&D3), and hence had even xp progression, they had all the abilities of a Fighter, and all the rest on top, hence needed more base xp to level up (2250 instead of 2000, I believe...and doubling after that).There were also rules in the Greyhawk Adventures hardcover, which allowed for the playing of 0-level PCs, who could do exactly as Eileen suggests, picking individual abilities from several classes, to make a personalised build, with the xp cost increasing accordingly.
Each ability could be picked individually, eg, an illusionist could opt to be trained in the Thief's 'Pick Pockets' ability (ie, D&D3 Sleight of Hand), to assist him in carrying out stage magic, or casting inconspicously (as per Still Spell), but have no requirement to train in Open Locks, Find Traps, etc, so not be forced to pay the price of full multiclassing.
Once enough xp had been gained to progress to level 1, these abilities would normally atrophy, as you focussed on your chosen class, unless you elected to continue paying the upkeep in 'xp-tax'.
Anyone else remember this?
|
In general, prestige classes that make you a "super specialist" in some area should be frowned upon, if not totally eliminated. For example, the full progression prestige classes for wizards (Incantatrix, ...) seem to trade off a few feats few consider essential (metamagic is more conveniently handled with items) for vast increases in their primary effectiveness. That is to me the basic, distilled bad prestige class.
I got some ribbing for playing an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, having to field accusations of cheese-mongering.
I don't know if that is one of the classes you refer to, but I can vouch that the pre-requisites for that were most certainly not what I would have freely chosen.Skill Focus (Spellcraft)? Err...don't the 12 ranks I have to sink in this skill prove how 'focussed' I am?
Spell Focus (Abjuration)? A feat that, as written, seems to have no practical use whatsoever? (Increase the save DC for protection and buff spells that the targets choose not to save against...)? WTF?
Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration)? Oh, now. That's just adding insult to injury.
Although I can vouch for the benefits at higher level (See the thread 'Moltenwing Dies in One Round') from immediate action prismatic walls, I can honestly say that the campaign really required this level of power-whoring (level 18 party surviving Level 30 Word of Chaos/Blasphemy? Sheesh!).
And those pre-requisites made a difference; I really felt the pain at low levels, with what effectively amounts to three wasted feats.
The little bit I did of creating my own Prestige Class was for a Giant Slayer. What I did is make a base template for the class and then modify the abiliites somewhat per region in Greyhawk, allowing more logical differences in combating giants throughout the Flanaess based on the terrain. Not only did the Prestige Class vary according to the terrain but it also created a unified Giant Slayer organization plus give a little ooomph to geographical regions as well.
/threadjack
Can we get a looksie at this, somehow? It sounds really good! :D
/end threadjack
Peace,
tfad
|
|
I am left with two conclusions
Either the Bad PrC Fallacy is really a Dm/Grognard fallacy. There is really no such thing as a bad prc, just a lot of Dm's and grognards who compleign alot about them.
LOL
While you may be right that such folk exist, I don't think that 'keeping the PCs weak' is the aim of this thread, more like 'getting rid of an awkward metagame mechanic'.
I'm quite happy to work with a player to find a cool concept, and even give out different/bonus abilities, but don't think the PrC format is neccesarily the ideal way to do this in every case.
My current AoW campaign has a player who wants a grim, shadow-blooded, undead-hunting, Scout/Ranger. He wants to be able to survive in the wild, track, and have a favoured enemy, but doesn't care about spells (not believing the PC would be religious) wild empathy, or an animal companion (in fact he offered to have animals be wary of his unnatural heritage).
In the end, we settled on him having a 'variant of a variant' ability, ie the 'SPIRITUAL CONNECTION' and 'SPIRITUAL GUIDE' class features from Complete Champion, but altered so that instead of speaking with animals/plants and communing with nature, he gets messages of equivalent utility in the back of his mind, via the subtle whisperings of his unborn twin.
In summary, we don't mind the players getting some goodies, but feel this could be better served by turning a lot of the PrC into generally available options such as feat chains, variant classes and racial substitution levels.
All in all, I dont think 3.5 got lazy by throwing around so many PrCs instead of using classes we already have, I think a lot of players/DMs tend to get lazy. I never get upset when new options are added, because they are just that; options. In the games I have played, the DM was usually too busy to notice when someone came in with a PrC or took time to work it into the campaign (we usually have 7+ players, so the DM is pretty busy). I feel it has a lot to do with what the DM allows and doesnt. Also, how campaign-appropriate the PrC is.
I ran a Ravenloft campaign for a few years and let me tell you, 95% of the PrCs out there are NOT appropriate for that campaign. On the other hand, the existing PrCs for Ravenloft are VERY specific to the setting, and thus inappropriate in other games. I can get behind these with little trouble. It actually makes me happy to see the players take an intrest in the setting enough to not only be a monster-hunter, but an associate of Van Richten type PrC.
When I run games now, I am making PrCs as part of a side-quest to gain access to that class; either by encountering an existing member of that class and receiving formal training, or by completing some task that proves you have the prereqs and understand why you needed them. Sort of like how you "unlock" new jobs in Final Fantasy XI. I think PrCs can be a wonderful game tool when used properly.
The little bit I did of creating my own Prestige Class was for a Giant Slayer. What I did is make a base template for the class and then modify the abiliites somewhat per region in Greyhawk, allowing more logical differences in combating giants throughout the Flanaess based on the terrain. Not only did the Prestige Class vary according to the terrain but it also created a unified Giant Slayer organization plus give a little ooomph to geographical regions as well./threadjack
Can we get a looksie at this, somehow? It sounds really good! :D
/end threadjack
Peace,
tfad
Hmmm....possibly, I'd have to dig out my D&D stuff, its all in storage at the moment. Give me a couple of days and I can post it (Mon. or Tues).
In the end, we settled on him having a 'variant of a variant' ability, ie the 'SPIRITUAL CONNECTION' and 'SPIRITUAL GUIDE' class features from Complete Champion, but altered so that instead of speaking with animals/plants and communing with nature, he gets messages of equivalent utility in the back of his mind, via the subtle whisperings of his unborn twin.
Nicely done. Undead twin is a great idea.
My current AoW campaign has a player who wants a grim, shadow-blooded, undead-hunting, Scout/Ranger.
I'm the player, and that's my character. Working out so far - and it works from level 1 up - that's important.
He wants to be able to survive in the wild, track, and have a favoured enemy, but doesn't care about spells (not believing the PC would be religious) wild empathy, or an animal companion (in fact he offered to have animals be wary of his unnatural heritage).
Again, Snorter is right on the money. The only thing I wanted to add was some shadow abilities. A PrC helped here, but I had the core of it without a PrC (and arguably, it would be more powerful without). But I liked the flavour of the shadowy sword thing...
In the end, we settled on him having a 'variant of a variant' ability, ie the 'SPIRITUAL CONNECTION' and 'SPIRITUAL GUIDE' class features from Complete Champion
Yep, yep, yep.
but altered so that instead of speaking with animals/plants and communing with nature, he gets messages of equivalent utility in the back of his mind, via the subtle whisperings of his unborn twin.
WHAT! This is new!? And my twin is still unborn? I am 20 years old you know... Why on earth didn't you post as Tip-Sniffer if this was going to be some kind of reveal? Bums.
In summary, we don't mind the players getting some goodies, but feel this could be better served by turning a lot of the PrC into generally available options such as feat chains, variant classes and racial substitution levels.
And family revelations at inopportune times as well it seems.
Matt
Once enough xp had been gained to progress to level 1, these abilities would normally atrophy, as you focussed on your chosen class, unless you elected to continue paying the upkeep in 'xp-tax'.
Anyone else remember this?
I do. It was a cool idea. Always wanted a fighter that could cast a CLW when in a pinch. And use scrolls of healing of course. The DM never followed through with the campaign though :-(
Matt
In general, prestige classes that make you a "super specialist" in some area should be frowned upon, if not totally eliminated. For example, the full progression prestige classes for wizards (Incantatrix, ...) seem to trade off a few feats few consider essential (metamagic is more conveniently handled with items) for vast increases in their primary effectiveness. That is to me the basic, distilled bad prestige class.
Guess who I thought of when I read that post. And would you look who pops up to protest too much:
I got some ribbing for playing an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, having to field accusations of cheese-mongering.
I'm presuming here that 'field accusations' is a euphemism for 'accept the obviousness'?
Although I can vouch for the benefits at higher level (See the thread 'Moltenwing Dies in One Round') from immediate action prismatic walls, I can honestly say that the campaign really required this level of power-whoring (level 18 party surviving Level 30 Word of Chaos/Blasphemy? Sheesh!).
Exactly - you became uber. And it happened as soon as the PrC was yours. It was fairly sickening. And I think you reined yourself in somewhat as well...
I think this agrees with the feeling of the posters on this thread. What you wanted was flavour. What you got was some crappy choices of feats, and then an almost game-breaking character. I looked at it and thought "Who wouldn't want to be one of these?"
And those pre-requisites made a difference; I really felt the pain at low levels, with what effectively amounts to three wasted feats.
So why do it? Look at Kaile. He could've been a straight cleric and be exactly the same to be honest. I only took the PrC because it was easy, and I felt I'd lag behind otherwise. Need not have bothered tbh - hardly ever used the abilities.
Nicely done. Undead twin is a great idea.
In the end, we settled on him having a 'variant of a variant' ability, ie the 'SPIRITUAL CONNECTION' and 'SPIRITUAL GUIDE' class features from Complete Champion, but altered so that instead of speaking with animals/plants and communing with nature, he gets messages of equivalent utility in the back of his mind, via the subtle whisperings of his unborn twin.
Hang on? Is it undead or unborn? I'm getting really confused now? Although I agree it is a great idea. Snorter is full of them.
:-)
I don't have much sympathy for the "it's okay if I'm overpowered later, because I suck now" design philosophy. I don't think it justifies wizards being the way they are just like I don't think a few out-of-the-way prereqs justifies an overpowered PrC.
TS
I know this comment will seem like I peed in James Jacob's Post Toasties, but I'd like to see Pathfinder break away from the notion that game designers should be "rendering" PrCs for DMs and players. I'd like to see James, Jason, Sean, & co., sit down and develop a 5 page layout of all the powers, added feats & bonuses that could exist for a custom PrC - - then publish a section on how to build a custom PrC for YOUR campaign, whatever and where ever that might be.
If I understood you corectly, your suggesting that they have a chapter detailing out all the different abilities the DM could use to create a Prestige Class and then essentially pick their own in order to create a class. If this is what your saying, I think it's a great idea. Excellent for helping DM's customize Prestige Classes for their world, oh, say like Greyhawk.
The little bit I did of creating my own Prestige Class was for a Giant Slayer. What I did is make a base template for the class and then modify the abiliites somewhat per region in Greyhawk, allowing more logical differences in combating giants throughout the Flanaess based on the terrain. Not only did the Prestige Class vary according to the terrain but it also created a unified Giant Slayer organization plus give a little ooomph to geographical regions as well.
Hey Eileen! Nice to hear from you. And, as always, I get a kick out of the passion with which you are devoted to Greyhawk. Nice job, keeping the dream that was Greyhawk alive in this crazy 4e economy (if you get my mixed metaphors)...
But YES, exactly! I am suggesting a break through in the way PAZIO can present options and TEACH the art of prestige-buidling as a story vehicle. Perhaps the DM only reveals the benefits and powers level-by-level, adding excitement back into the game (versus the splat that players typically read and select (or in some cases expect or demand)). First, lets put the "prestige" back into the position of Gamemaster...
I'm in. I need to make good PrC's for my homebrew, and I'd like a few pointers.
I don't have much sympathy for the "it's okay if I'm overpowered later, because I suck now" design philosophy. I don't think it justifies wizards being the way they are just like I don't think a few out-of-the-way prereqs justifies an overpowered PrC.
TS
As usual, I agree with TS- characters should never suck or be bad at what it is they do in any way unless they are taking another level in a new class at great disparity(Ftr 9/Wiz 1, for example). I think this is where alternate class abilities and creative feats save the day as opposed to PrCs or new base classes- they offer new abilities that define and flavor a character without holding them back.
The little bit I did of creating my own Prestige Class was for a Giant Slayer. What I did is make a base template for the class and then modify the abiliites somewhat per region in Greyhawk, allowing more logical differences in combating giants throughout the Flanaess based on the terrain. Not only did the Prestige Class vary according to the terrain but it also created a unified Giant Slayer organization plus give a little ooomph to geographical regions as well./threadjack
Can we get a looksie at this, somehow? It sounds really good! :D
/end threadjack
Peace,
tfad
I regret to say that I can't find it on my computer or the hard copy. Haven't played D&D for so long that when I stopped, things were kinda left unorganized. I'm really surprised it wasn't under the Prestige Class file on my computer.
|
|
WHAT! This is new!? And my twin is still unborn? I am 20 years old you know... Why on earth didn't you post as Tip-Sniffer if this was going to be some kind of reveal? Bums.
Relax, I meant it as in 'didn't go to full term'.
That's what you wrote at the start.Your mother hasn't been gestating all this time. Yeesh.
|
|
Nicely done. Undead twin is a great idea.
Hang on? Is it undead or unborn? I'm getting really confused now? Although I agree it is a great idea. Snorter is full of them.
:-)
Relax, you're getting your knickers in a twist over nothing, because Arch-Lich can't read. :)
Thanks for the compliment. Wait till you see how much foreshadowing I inserted to make you hurl yourselves into chapter 2...
I regret to say that I can't find it on my computer or the hard copy. Haven't played D&D for so long that when I stopped, things were kinda left unorganized. I'm really surprised it wasn't under the Prestige Class file on my computer.
Bummer.
Oh well - thanks for taking the time to look! :D
Peace,
tfad
|
|
The little bit I did of creating my own Prestige Class was for a Giant Slayer. What I did is make a base template for the class and then modify the abiliites somewhat per region in Greyhawk, allowing more logical differences in combating giants throughout the Flanaess based on the terrain. Not only did the Prestige Class vary according to the terrain but it also created a unified Giant Slayer organization plus give a little ooomph to geographical regions as well.
I regret to say that I can't find it on my computer or the hard copy. Haven't played D&D for so long that when I stopped, things were kinda left unorganized. I'm really surprised it wasn't under the Prestige Class file on my computer.
You didn't post it on Canonfire, by any chance?
<fingers crossed>
Ok, I just found a hard copy of it. It's about 4 1/2 pages long and called Giant Killers of the Lost Lands. I made it with 3rd edition rules though I doubt there would be much if any difference with 3.5 rules. There are 10 class levels, each with one ability. At level 2 you get a regional ability, the rest of the level abilities are the same. The prestige class also goes into the organization of Giant Killers as well. I'd maybe retitle it Giant Slayers of the Lost Lands. It gets the name Lost Lands because the individual who insipired the class was from the original Against the Giants module, and over the span of 20+ years, the profession has grown to other areas of the Flanaess and into a full fledged organization.
It will take me awhile to retype the entire thing, so where do you want me to post it? Don't know if it will be to most people's liking, so if not, please don't be overly critical, else I'll cry (sniff, sniff).
Nicely done. Undead twin is a great idea.Hang on? Is it undead or unborn? I'm getting really confused now? Although I agree it is a great idea. Snorter is full of them.
:-)
Relax, you're getting your knickers in a twist over nothing, because Arch-Lich can't read. :)
Thanks for the compliment. Wait till you see how much foreshadowing I inserted to make you hurl yourselves into chapter 2...
You makin fun of me boy?
Nah, just tryin' to throw my boy Fayne off the scent.
What I'll really be doing to his character is... come closer...<whisper, whisper>.
Sick, huh?
Oh. My. God
IthinkImgoingtopuke.
It will take me awhile to retype the entire thing, so where do you want me to post it? Don't know if it will be to most people's liking, so if not, please don't be overly critical, else I'll cry (sniff, sniff).
Just caught up with your post - yes please! I'm not fussed where it is, I'm just interested in the material! But don't make too much work for yourself. I'd be happy with a note pad pasted onto the Paizo boards. Anything more elaborate would be a Christmas present.
Many thanks in advance!
tfad
It will take me awhile to retype the entire thing, so where do you want me to post it? Don't know if it will be to most people's liking, so if not, please don't be overly critical, else I'll cry (sniff, sniff).Just caught up with your post - yes please! I'm not fussed where it is, I'm just interested in the material! But don't make too much work for yourself. I'd be happy with a note pad pasted onto the Paizo boards. Anything more elaborate would be a Christmas present.
Many thanks in advance!
tfad
Very well, I shall just post it here, it would be the easiest. I'm on vacation starting today, so I have plenty of time. Hope you like it or at the very least, aren't disappointed anyway.
Anyway, for my games, I'm pretty loose with PRCs as long as the characters can hit the mechanical requirements. At the end of the day, they're just classes and the main requirement I care about is alignment-restrictions. (No monk/barbarian/paladin/bards, or equivalent prestige variations, in my games. That would drive me insane.) The mechanical requirements do give them the illusion of prestige to the players though.Really? Out of curiousity, why are alignment prereqs a sticking point for you?
TS
Sorry I didn't reply sooner, didn't see the thread for a while.
Alignments are a sticking point for me in classes because the alignment builds behavior into a class. If a class has an alignment restriction, that's a "roleplay mechanic" that is inherited by the character because the character has to have a valid alignment for the class. Granted, you can say that an organization for a PRC is also a built-in roleplay mechanic, but it's really not built-in to classes, it has to be built from the class in most cases and the DM has to build it (or an equivalent) for the world. For alignments, most players at least have a vague (very vague) idea of what they are and understand that they're aspects of the character's personality that makes the class available, rather than something external to the character that makes the class available.
A paladin/barbarian just doesn't make sense to me because the alignment of the class is so built with the class. Paladins are Lawful Good, barbarians aren't Lawful Good, and never the two shall meet. Now a barbarian could be Neutral Good, but I would think that when he truly crosses into lawful territory, his own lawfulness might interfere with his ability to lose control and rage. I understand that mechanically, he can just no longer gain levels in the class and his previous barbarian levels (and rages) still continue to function if he becomes Lawful Good, but I think it's reasonable to say he can't continue to advance in barbarian because he has become too structured and is losing touch with his ability to cut loose and rage.
The same argument, more or less, can be applied to prestige classes, I just used base classes for my example because it keeps it simple. :-)
I'm not sure I follow. Alignment restrictions are a sticking point for you because you want characters of certain classes to act in certain archetypal ways? Personally I hate alignment restrictions, but everyone's entitled to an opinion.
TS
In the year 576 CY, the good lands of Geoff and Sterich were brutally invaded by hill, frost, and fire giants descending from the peaks of the Jotens, Crystalmist, and Hellfurnaces Mountains. A brave group of adventurers led by a dwarf named Redmod Dumple, fought valiantly against these invaders, attacking key locations such as the Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, The Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl, and the Hall of the Fire Giant King. After defeating these significant locales, the adventurers learned that drow elves were organizing and supporting the giant attacks. These tales are now known as the legendary stories of Against the Giants and The Descent into the Depths of the Earth.
When the giants and drow were defeated, only a few adventurers returned to the surface world, one of them being Redmod Dumple. Soon after the lands were liberated from the invaders, stories began appearing throughout the country sides depicting the exploits of this courageous dwarf; as such, Redmod Dumple was given a new name by the bards, Redmod the Giant Slayer.
With his new title and the honor of protecting his homeland, Redmod began teaching others the art of giant slaying. Training was available to all who were brave enough to answer his challenge. Thus began the Giant Slayers of the Lost Lands.
Though more than twenty years has passed since Redmod fought the giants, the passage of time as allowed him to train countless adventurers, who in turn have taught students of their own. With their renown expertise in giant slaying, many of Redmod’s pupils have taken their skills to other lands throughout the Flanaess. These skills have been developed and shaped to fit the unique terrains and giant kind faced in various lands in order to maximize the effectiveness of the giant slayer. With all this, the Giant Slayers of the Lost Lands has become one of the most famous organizations throughout the Flanaess.
PRESTIGE CLASS, GIANT SLAYERS OF THE LOST LANDS
The World of Greyhawk is filled with giants and such a land is in demand of those that possess the skill and courage to eradicate such monsters. These experienced individuals come from similar backgrounds, most of which suffered from the cruelty of such giant kind. These heroes have become self-motivated, brave, and above all, have learned the art of giant slaying in order to protect their homelands and to champion those who would also suffer fates similar to theirs.
Giant Slayers generally rely on light armor and special combat techniques which are designed to bring about the demise of such creatures as quickly as possible. Working with others, they utilize their skills and knowledge to lead attacks against giants and vanquish their hated foes.
Giant Slayers of the Lost Lands may have previous training from any character class, though barbarians, fighters, and rangers certainly make up the majority of these individuals. Those with spell casting abilities may become effective giant slayers as a result of the unique class abilities.
Hit Dice
Giant Slayers of the Lost Lands receive a d10 hit die for each experience level attained.
REQUIREMENTS
To qualify to become a Giant Slayer of the Lost Lands, characters must fulfill the following criteria:
• You must have a base attack bonus of +4 or higher
• You need at least 3 ranks in the Knowledge (Giant Lore) skill as well as have the Speak Language (Giant) skill. This may be taken in replace of a bonus racial language.
• You must have at one time victimized by giants in order to develop such a strong hatred for these creatures. This life changing moment may be the result of being captured and enslaved by giants, watching one’s home town be over ridden by such creatures, watching loved ones die by their hands, or some similar moment of tragedy.
• In order to be accepted into the organization you must slay a particular giant selected by members of the giant slayer organization. Proof of success must come in the form of the giant’s head or be witnessed by a good standing member of the organization.
• You must take the Vow of Courage.
ACCEPTANCE INTO THE ORGANIZATION
To become a join and train to become a Giant Slayers of the Lost Lands, you must meet the first three requirements above. You may then attend a yearly meeting of the Giant Slayers of the Lost Lands and request an audience with the senior member present. This individual shall listen to your request and determine if it has any merit and if so, a quest of courage will be called for.
The quest of courage requires you to kill a specific giant chosen by the senior member. Information pertaining to the giant’s background and exploits as well as approximate location is then given unto you. Reaching the giant’s location and defeat of any companions may be accepted by party members of the applicant or the aid of a Giant Slayer of the Lost Lands of your choosing. The giant specifically designated to you must be slain by you alone.
Upon completion of the class requirements, you will become a member of the Giant Slayers of the Lost Lands. A ceremony called the Right of Passage will be held in your honor. During this ceremony you must take the Vow of Courage and be awarded a heraldic coat of arms indicating your status within the organization. Worked into the coat of arms is the symbol of the Giant Slayers of the Lost Lands. The design consisting of a triangular shaped shield with a hill giant on the bottom, a frost giant on the upper left, and a fire giant in the upper right. In the center is the character’s unique personal symbol. The background is always blood red.
CLASS SKILLS
The class skills are as follows:
Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (Giant Lore) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Speak Language (Int), and Spot (Wis).
Level 1: Attack bonus +1 normally +3 against giants; Saving Throws: Fort +0, Ref +2 normally, +3 against giant rock throwing, Will +0; Track
Level 2: Attack bonus +2 normally +4 against giants; Saving Throws: Fort +0, Ref +3 normally, +4 against giant rock throwing, Will +0; Regional Ability
Level 3: Attack bonus +3 normally +5 against giants; Saving Throws: Fort +0, Ref +3 normally, +4 against giant rock throwing, Will +1; Inspiring Words
Level 4: Attack bonus +4 normally +6 against giants; Saving Throws: Fort +1, Ref +4 normally, +5 against giant rock throwing, Will +1; Taunting
Level 5: Attack bonus +5 normally +7 against giants; Saving Throws: Fort +1, Ref +4 normally, +5 against giant rock throwing, Will +1; Hated Species
Level 6: Attack bonus +6 normally +8 against giants; Saving Throws: Fort +1, Ref +5 normally, +6 against giant rock throwing, Will +2; Detect Ambush
Level 7: Attack bonus +7 normally +9 against giants; Saving Throws: Fort +2, Ref +5 normally, +6 against giant rock throwing, Will +2; Lair Knowledge
Level 8: Attack bonus +8 normally +10 against giants; Saving Throws: Fort +2, Ref +6 normally, +7 against giant rock throwing, Will +2; Instill Fear
Level 9: Attack bonus +9 normally +11 against giants; Saving Throws: Fort +2, Ref +6 normally, +7 against giant rock throwing, Will +3; Lead Attack
Level 10: Attack bonus +10 normally +12 against giants; Saving Throws: Fort +2, Ref +7 normally, +8 against giant rock throwing, Will +3; Anticipate Giant Attack
CLASS FEATURES
The class features for the Giant Slayers of the Lost Lands are as follows:
Track
You receive the track feat at 1st level. Giant tracks are easier to identify and follow than others and when tracking such creatures the DC is reduced by 5. If you already possess the track feat, you acquire 1 additional rank in the ability.
Regional Ability
Each region of Giant Slayers of the Lost Lands has its own special ability unique to that territory. You have acquired that ability. The exact nature of the talent is dependent upon where you learned to slay giants. See regional abilities below.
Insipiring Words
When battling giants you offer inspiring words be it advice or encouragement to your companions within 20 feet. The following round, the individual increases their chance to hit by +2 for 4 rounds plus your Cha. modifier (always a minimum of 1 round regardless of Cha. modifier).
Taunt
You are skilled in aggravating your giant opponent, taunting it with insults. This is a free action. The following round, the giant makes a Will saving throw to avoid becoming so aggravated that it makes mistakes in combat, suffering a -4 in battle against the giant slayer. The ability lasts for 1d4+1 rounds ad may be repeated until the giant succeeds in their Will saving throw. The DC of the Will saving throw equals 10 + Giant Slayer character level + charisma modifier.
Hated Species
Battle experience has created a hatred for a specific giant species. Select one type of giant and gain a +2 attack bonus (including spells requiring a touch attack), and +4 damage bonus (this modifier applies to damage inflicted by spells as well).
Detect Ambush
Your knowledge of giants allows you to locate a giant ambush in advance. When nearing such an attack (surprise situation) you receive a +4 bonus to spot or listen checks.
Lair Knowledge
Upon entering a giant lair, you can anticipate the layout design thereby understanding what lies ahead. This enables you to determine the locations of guards, treasure, pets, and where various types of rooms lie, such as sleeping quarters, kitchen, dens, and the like. Successful determination of such detail requires a +4 Int check against a DC of 15. (DM’s should use the Against the Giants module series to help determine giant lair layouts).
Instill Fear
When facing off in melee combat against one giant, you show such hatred and fierceness that your opponent must make a Will saving throw DC 10 + Giant Slayer character level + Cha modifier, or take the defensive in battle. A failed Will roll indicates the giant employs the “Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action” on page 140 of the Players Guide.
Lead Attack
Your presence raises the morale of your companions while fighting giants. With your battle experience those within 50’ increase their attack by +2 for the duration of the fight.
Anticipate Giant Atack
Your extensive giant experience allows you to anticipate organized giant attacks upon familiar settlements 2-3 weeks in advance. With this ability, you are able to determine the species and properly estimate the number of giants which would be involved in the raid. You are able to determine their place of origin as well as route of travel towards the settlement. To determine any of these factors, you must make a Knowledge (giant lore) skill check against a DC of 15 for familiar giants and terrain or in dealing with unfamiliar giants and terrain, the DC becomes 20.
REGIONAL ABILITIES
Various areas of the Flanaess are particularly populated and threatened by giants. In each region a special class ability feature is learned which assists the individual in their crusade against giants. These abilities may be used only against the giants of your region. Regional abilities are as follows:
Frost, Ice, and Snow Barbarians, Bon March, Corusks Mountains, Rakers Mountains, Blemu Hill,s, Flinty Hills
The primary giant species encountered in these regions are frost, hill, and stone. As a giant slayer of this area you battle with such ferocity that when you take damage from your giant kin opponent, a +1 bonus is applied to all your attacks for every 20 points they have inflicted upon you.
Lands of Iuz, Howling Hills
The majority of giants encountered in these regions are hill giants in service of Iuz and his troops. Your hatred extends to these giants and you acquire a +1 attack, damage and saving throw bonus for every 2 levels you have in the Giant Slayer of the Lost Lands prestige class.
The Pomarj, Abbor-Alz Hills and Mountains, Cairn Hills, Drachensgrab Hills
Hill giants are the primary specie living within these areas. The giant slayers of these lands are especially good at preparing ambushes against their giant foes. A successful Knowledge (giant lore) skill check against a DC of 15 allows you to select an appropriate ambush location providing it’s at least 1 mile from the giant’s lair. If successful, you encounter giants after 1d12 hours of waiting (this is in addition to normal chances of encounters). Your Hide and Move silently skill checks receive a +4 bonus when preparing the ambush. After one encounter with giants the ambush location must be moved to at least 5 miles away.
Spine Ridge Hills
Hill giants are most likely to be found in the Spine Ridge Hills. You have learned to be particularly good at disarming giants and may use the disarm combat attack on page 155 of the Players Guide with greater ease. The character is not subject to an attack of opportunity and the giant receives only half his size bonus when making their opposed roll to prevent the disarming. Each time this technique is tried against a particular giant, the character imposes a cumulative -2 penalty to their own opposed die roll due to the giant learning from the experience. Most Giant Slayers of the Lost Lands utilize two handed weapons because of this regional ability.
Lost Lands (Geoff and Sterich), The Kingdom of Keoland, The Yeomanry, Dim Forest, Hornwood Forest, Oytwood Forest, Barrier Peaks Mountains, Clatspur Mountains, Crystalmist Mountains, Hellfurnaces Mountains, Jotens Mountains, Salhaut Mountains, Ullsprue Mountains, Stark Mounds, and Tors Hills
This huge region covers the most of the western quarter of the Flanaess. It is here that the Giant Slayers of the Lost Lands originated. The majority of tiants which reside here are fire, frost, hill, and stone. Giants in these lands tend to live in clans and reside in caves and fortifications which reflect a more organized culture. You are used to fighting several giants at once and they do not gain any flanking bonus (see page 153 of the Players Guide). In addition, you retain any Dex bonus against such opponents because of your unqiue combat sytle of giant fighting.
MEETING OF THE GIANT SLAYERS OF THE LOST LANDS
Once a year, on Planting Day 1, each region holds a meeting in which all members are expected to attend. The location is always the same and is usually a famous tavern, church, or well known location in the wilderness. Here, as many members as possible gather and discuss their exploits of the past year. The activity of the giants within their region is discussed in detail and plans are laid to foil any giant actions. In addition, giant related events of other regions are spoken of at these meetings and if necessary, members are dispatched to other regions to assist their fellow kin. At each meeting, the Vow of Courage is renewed for each member as they speak in unison. In times of great threat, additional gatherings may be called to deal with matters at hand.
The meetings may be very serious and organized or quickly become little more than excuses for drunken behavior depending upon the exact nature of the members attending. Giant Slayers residing from other regions will attend a meeting of another location if they are unable to reach their own area. In such cases, they are treated with considerable respect and honored throughout the night. If the tone of the meeting fails to meet the expectations of these guests, they often retire early for the night.
VOW OF COURAGE
The vow of courage is renewed at each meeting held by giant slayers. The oath is often spoken before entering into battle with giants be it spoken or silently thought. The Vow of Courage is as follows:
In times of peril
In times of mourning
When giants invade the lands of others
I shall uphold the Vow of Courage
I shall put aside my personal needs and safety
By my hands no giant shall live to conquer
By my blade I proclaim no giant shall flee
It is my sworn duty to rid the land of such vile creatures
That the innocent and weak shall not suffer
For I am a Giant Slayer of the Lost Lands
And I have spoken the Vow of Courage
VOW OF REMEMBERANCE
Whenever a comrade of the giant slayer is killed, a burial or cremation usually takes place. In such cases a member of the organization will speak the following words which is called the Vow or Remembrance
My fallen comrade (insert name and title of the deceased)
I (name and title of giant slayer) lay witness to your acts of bravery
For this day you lay down your life for those you have sworn to protect
Your courage shall carry your memory
Your honor be my guide
For this I speak the Vow of Remembrance
May your soul find peace this day
GIANT SLAYER REPUTATION
Your reputation supersedes you as a Giant Slayer of the Lost Lands. Upon reaching 5th level in this class, you develop a reputation where certain giants may wish to prove themselves worthy by defeating such a legendary giant slayer. Expect to be hunted down by specific individuals and perhaps even small bands who seek the glory of slaying you. Such encounters occur at the DM’s discretion but are likely to happen at least once a year.
Thank you *so* much for taking the time to type that out. It was well worth the wait. Good stuff, I'm going to make a little tweak here and there, but use this for sure!
Many thanks again for taking the time to type this up!
Peace,
tfad
Let me guess; Redmod Dumple was your PC, right?
LOL
It's 01:00 am here right now, so I'll read it later, but you are a credit to the community!
<kiss>
1:00 a.m., so your in Europe some where?
Redmod Dumple was a pregenerated character which was published in the original Against the Giants module.
I wrote this with 3rd edition rules for my campaign but it really didn't see any action. It was intended to round out Greyhawk more than anything. I altered a few abilities to comply with 3.5 rules. Feel free to change anything you like for home use should anyone out there choose to use it. The base attack bonus is kinda low but I went with that because I wanted to free up some levels for players who would take all 10 levels in Giant Slayer and still have room to grow.
• You need at least 3 ranks in the Knowledge (Giant Lore) skill as well as have the Speak Language (Giant) skill. This may be taken in replace of a bonus racial language.
The referance to the Speak Language skill (Giant) replacing a bonus racial language was more for background purposes if a player decided at character creation they wanted to take the prestige class. This way they could write their background to include giant events and have learned the language without sacrifcing skill points at character creation. A house rule you may choose to throw out.
Giant Awesomeness
This really is a good example of what a PrC should do and should be.
It has history, tied to the world. It brings the PC closer to that history. It adds flavor as well as mechanics. All of the mechanics are focused in the direction of the history. It's an attractive option, without being something all players are going to want to take. Good work!
The only real changes I'm considering (but won't get around to for some time) is something I like to do for all PrCs I'm going to use in our games. That's to add a second progression with spell casting. I like PrCs as organizations with different members from different classes. So I usually do an extra progression for the full casters (and manifesters), so the organization is a little more realistic (in fantasy terms) and the wizard, who is close to his brother the fighter, can both join the PrC. Plus it gives the players, as members of the organization, a little more variety in terms of who they can call on for help. Otherwise, every time the giant slayers need help with a magic wielding foe, they have to look for outside help. Suddenly, they don't feel as epic and awesome as they used to, do they?
Plus a giant slaying dwarf cleric is a must!
Thanks again for sharing,
Peace,
tfad
Giant AwesomenessThis really is a good example of what a PrC should do and should be.
It has history, tied to the world. It brings the PC closer to that history. It adds flavor as well as mechanics. All of the mechanics are focused in the direction of the history. It's an attractive option, without being something all players are going to want to take. Good work!
The only real changes I'm considering (but won't get around to for some time) is something I like to do for all PrCs I'm going to use in our games. That's to add a second progression with spell casting. I like PrCs as organizations with different members from different classes. So I usually do an extra progression for the full casters (and manifesters), so the organization is a little more realistic (in fantasy terms) and the wizard, who is close to his brother the fighter, can both join the PrC. Plus it gives the players, as members of the organization, a little more variety in terms of who they can call on for help. Otherwise, every time the giant slayers need help with a magic wielding foe, they have to look for outside help. Suddenly, they don't feel as epic and awesome as they used to, do they?
I'm glad you liked it. I originally proposed it to WOTC but they sent me back a rejection letter saying they had enough prestige classes in the making already (this is when 3rd edition first came out). They didn't even bother to look at it, so I said Phooeey on them.
Are you saying that you plan on developing a second list of abilities in which regular spell casters would take in order to emphasize their spell casting ability? If this is what your implying, I think its an excellent idea. I personally don't feel that their should be much for restictions on prestige classes in regards to classes and races (in most cases, but not all). I think they should be versatile without losing their direction. Thus, individuals of various walks of life (classes, races, and backgrounds) should generally be able to fit in. Prestige classes specifically designed to exclude individuals as a result of elitism, evil or good, xenophobic attitudes, etc. should maintain their restictions because its very much a part of what they are. Situations like these are when I intentionally would close the door to "unqualified or unworthy individauls".
Please share your version with us when the time comes. By the way, what world do you play in?
|
|
1:00 a.m., so your in Europe some where?
Yes, Halifax, West Yorkshire County, United Kingdom.
Redmod Dumple was a pregenerated character which was published in the original Against the Giants module.
<checks>
Hah! So he was!My God, there were some god-awful names in that list of pre-gens, weren't there?
Gleep Wurp, 'The Eyebiter'
Cloyer Bulse
Roaky Swerked
Frush O'Suggil
Fonkin Hoddypeak (priceless, this one wouldn't survive unchanged one minute with any of my groups...)
Flerd Trantle
Redmod Dumple
Faffle Dwe'o-mercraeft (WTF? Not content with having an obsure term as a surname, he splits it into three, and adds a superfluous dipthong.)
Beek Gwenders of Croodle (conjures up a vision of Beaker from the Muppets - Mimimimi!)
When we played ToEE, we had to change Verbobonc to Verbrock, because no-one could take the place seriously.
And here's me thinking you were just bigging up the exploits of one of your old PCs, trying to get them immortalised in a WOTC product via stealth. Hey, it's what I'd do!
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
My God, there were some god-awful names in that list of pre-gens, weren't there?
Gleep Wurp, 'The Eyebiter'
Cloyer Bulse
Roaky Swerked
Frush O'Suggil
Fonkin Hoddypeak (priceless, this one wouldn't survive unchanged one minute with any of my groups...)
Flerd Trantle
Redmod Dumple
Faffle Dwe'o-mercraeft (WTF? Not content with having an obsure term as a surname, he splits it into three, and adds a superfluous [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipthong]dipthong[/url
It sounds like someone just used a random letter generator and strung together whatever came out...
Given the list of names the module had, I thought it was the best one there. Yes, they were all terrible. Early modules tended to do that. I could have come up with a better name but I'm kind of like a purist approach. I guess I'm just stuck in my ways. (Lowers head in shame).
1:00 a.m., so your in Europe some where?Yes, Halifax, West Yorkshire County, United Kingdom.
Redmod Dumple was a pregenerated character which was published in the original Against the Giants module.<checks>
Hah! So he was!My God, there were some god-awful names in that list of pre-gens, weren't there?
Gleep Wurp, 'The Eyebiter'
Cloyer Bulse
Roaky Swerked
Frush O'Suggil
Fonkin Hoddypeak (priceless, this one wouldn't survive unchanged one minute with any of my groups...)
Flerd Trantle
Redmod Dumple
Faffle Dwe'o-mercraeft (WTF? Not content with having an obsure term as a surname, he splits it into three, and adds a superfluous dipthong.)
Beek Gwenders of Croodle (conjures up a vision of Beaker from the Muppets - Mimimimi!)When we played ToEE, we had to change Verbobonc to Verbrock, because no-one could take the place seriously.
And here's me thinking you were just bigging up the exploits of one of your old PCs, trying to get them immortalised in a WOTC product via stealth. Hey, it's what I'd do!
You actually went and checked? Hmmmphhh...... Whips head around, nose up in the air, stomps off.
It didn't take much checking; it was only five feet away.
'Dumple' just sounded too much like a halfling name, like 'dumpling'...
Given the names, I thought it was the best one. I agree, it makes a better halfing name. Perhaps the dwarf was really a cross dresser.
NO WAIT! NO SUCH CONTAMINATION OF GREYHAWK.
Ok, maybe his parents just hated him.
|
|
The only real changes I'm considering (but won't get around to for some time) is something I like to do for all PrCs I'm going to use in our games. That's to add a second progression with spell casting. I like PrCs as organizations with different members from different classes. So I usually do an extra progression for the full casters (and manifesters), so the organization is a little more realistic (in fantasy terms) and the wizard, who is close to his brother the fighter, can both join the PrC. Plus it gives the players, as members of the organization, a little more variety in terms of who they can call on for help. Otherwise, every time the giant slayers need help with a magic wielding foe, they have to look for outside help. Suddenly, they don't feel as epic and awesome as they used to, do they?
I thoroughly second this approach (or is it 'third' by now?).
A major theme of D&D, since the start, has been that a party of adventurers, with diverse skills, can prevail against threats that would overwhelm a single-classed group.
Any organisation that limited its prospective members, to those holding a homogenous set of skills and feats, and then continued to teach them further homogenous skills and feats, so that each member were virtually identical, would be shooting themselves in the foot.
A Thieves' Guild would mostly be Rogues, but would also contain Illusionists and Enchanters, to fool the Watch, clerics to heal, Fighter types for muscle, Rangers to liaise with the lands outside the city walls...
Similarly, a guild of giant-slayers should really only care whether you can slay an evil giant. Bring them proof, and you're in.
I feel so dern unpopular saying this, but as an avowed pre-1st edition grognard, I really like reading PrCs. Playing them, for me, can seem a bit canned, because I often allow higher level characters a chance to win a special power based on their character's ultimate goals, as a way of letting them feel unique, and I don't feel I need much help insofar as imagination goes. However, using what I've learned from prestige classes has only bolstered my toolkit for occasionally handing these powers in more balanced ways.
::Ducks::
A major theme of D&D, since the start, has been that a party of adventurers, with diverse skills, can prevail against threats that would overwhelm a single-classed group.
Any organisation that limited its prospective members, to those holding a homogenous set of skills and feats, and then continued to teach them further homogenous skills and feats, so that each member were virtually identical, would be shooting themselves in the foot.
Exactly.
That's the reason for the way I do things. It works out well, especially compared to the WotC way of doing things, where everyone in the party signs up to a different PrC/Organization. Sometimes more than one! I'm sure that if you joined the "Fellowship of X" then neither X nor Y would be too keen on you joining the "Fellowship of Y".
Are you saying that you plan on developing a second list of abilities in which regular spell casters would take in order to emphasize their spell casting ability?
Exactly.
It's surprisingly easy to do. Just trade out bonus to 'this' for bonus to 'that', where this is something more martial and that is something more spell related. Bonus damage (e.g. +4 vs. giants) can be moved directly to bonus save DCs (usually at about 50%, e.g. +4 damage becomes +2 to save DCs), bonus abilities can be switched for continued casting progression, saved can either be kept or traded for more spell type things. Again, I usually don't differentiate between arcane/divine/psionic, because then *any* class with a caster level can use it. Of course, the "balance" crowd would probably eat me alive for this but I've never had a problem with this approach.
Please share your version with us when the time comes. By the way, what world do you play in?
I'm probably not going to get around to it for some time. I'm not gaming at the moment, and I've got a lot of writing to do. Plus I'm super busy *and* I've just rediscovered the joys of Rebel Assault II. I'll see if I can put some time aside over Christmas, maybe, but I can't promise.
That makes me feel really ungrateful!
And we play in a variety of worlds. Planescape, Spelljammer and Ghostwalk are our favorites. We'll be starting a pulp-themed Pathfinder game next year.
Thanks again,
Peace,
tfad
|
It didn't take much checking; it was only five feet away.
'Dumple' just sounded too much like a halfling name, like 'dumpling'...
Given the names, I thought it was the best one. I agree, it makes a better halfing name. Perhaps the dwarf was really a cross dresser.
NO WAIT! NO SUCH CONTAMINATION OF GREYHAWK.
Ok, maybe his parents just hated him.
You call that contamination?
Huh huh.Huh.
Hahahahahahaaaaaaaaa!!!
Nothing to see here...
It didn't take much checking; it was only five feet away.
'Dumple' just sounded too much like a halfling name, like 'dumpling'...
Given the names, I thought it was the best one. I agree, it makes a better halfing name. Perhaps the dwarf was really a cross dresser.
NO WAIT! NO SUCH CONTAMINATION OF GREYHAWK.
Ok, maybe his parents just hated him.
You call that contamination?
Huh huh.
Huh.
Hahahahahahaaaaaaaaa!!!Nothing to see here...
So are you saying you have cross dressing dwarves in your Greyhawk?