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Consider the Xill: please help me fully understand move/atk/CMB option sequence within the round.
The Xill has:
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a xill must hit with one or more claw attacks. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. It receives a +2 bonus on the grapple check for each claw that hits. If it wins the grapple check and maintains the hold in the next round, it automatically bites the foe at that time. The bite deals no damage but injects a paralyzing venom.
Question: Using the Pathfinder RPG ruleset, could a Xill use a move action, then a standard action to attack with a claw, then use CMB as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity to gain the grappled condition, and would it receive a +2 to the CMB roll?
Then the next round, would the Xill just need to maintain the grapple to auto-bite the foe to inject venom? (Since this is automatic, would the Xill also get to select one of the various PRPG Grapple actions in addition to injecting the venom? Or not?)
* * * * *
Thanks for clarifying. At least, this is the way I would handle the 3.5-PRPG conversion today on-the-fly if I had to...vg
Yeah, this seems like a great example of what "Backwards Compatibility" is supposed to be.
And I would say that you DON'T need to "replace" Improved Grab at all.
Grapples are resolved differently, but Improved Grab pretty much works as-written.
(Grapple rules are external to Improved Grab itself. Imp. Grab just allows the free-Grapple-on-Melee-Hit.)
As for the free venom-bite, ??? That's a monster-specific ability (not part of Improved Grab normally),
so I could see it going either way, either free, or as the "Grapple Options" like you mentioned.
Now, the way Grapple works OVERALL, I think needs some work
(re: Full Round Action, wonky mechanics on how Pins are achieved), but that's for the Combat Chapter :-)
I think that's how it works. The real difference is that you now need to spend a standard action every round maintaining the grapple (which was not the case in the past).
All hot for me, you're exatly right. Just throw the Xill at them and have fun.
I actually envy them: Never saw a Xill on a game, not as a player and not as a dm.
Man, I never saw a Xill, Yeth Hound, Shadow Mastiff, and many more, and I'll tell you, I've been playing at quite some time already!
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I hit this particular snag converting over a Behir to 3.p. Improved grab stays as is, and on the subsequent round, the baddie gets another option to add to the carriers on a successful grapple. In the case of the Behir, it gets two options...
Also, for converting over bigger and smaller monsters, the size bonus/penalties got nerfed. Make sure you make the proper adjustments.
Ryn, who just likes Behir
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All hot for me, you're exatly right. Just throw the Xill at them and have fun.
I actually envy them: Never saw a Xill on a game, not as a player and not as a dm.
Funny thing is... me neither. I've been playin' for 25 years.... and this is a first. I even have three Xill minis just waitin' for 'em!
I guess I am envious too.
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Short follow-up. The game was last night. In the dark of night, the Xill's approached from behind. Nobody was impregnated by eggs, but the Xill's did provoke a level of nastalgia as well as interest.
Thanks for the help. I love these messageboards because of everyone's willingness to help-out quickly.
Thanks all.
Were there any successful grapples? Or paralysis-injecting bites?
My worry is that somewhat mediocre grappling creatures in 3.5 (like the choker, otyugh, etc.) will be completely hapless in Pathfinder.
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On that note...how does Improved Grab now work with the whole 'taking a -20 penalty to their Grapple check to attack other people without penalty'? So if I have giant lobster man with two claw attacks, Improved Grab on a successful claw hit, and a +31 CMB, how does it work? If I hit Player A with one claw and make my grapple check to grapple them, I now immediately do the Constrict damage (which is on a successful grapple check) and then have one claw left. If I use said claw to attack another Player, then is that Grapple check only at +11? If I succeed, is it only a DC 26 (15+11) for either player to escape? If I fail, is it still a DC 46 (15+31) for the first player to escape?
It was a bit confusing, any advice is appreciated.
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Were there any successful grapples? Or paralysis-injecting bites?
My worry is that somewhat mediocre grappling creatures in 3.5 (like the choker, otyugh, etc.) will be completely hapless in Pathfinder.
I've used the Otyugh in our playtests - and they were indeed quite ineffective (compared to 3.5). They have only an 11 strength, and only a +3 BAB, so their CMB sucked; considering they are built to grapple. There wasn't any official advice or rules for adjudicating creatures with racial/species physical propensity for grappling.
We ruled that a creature with "improved Grab" feat has a +4 bonus to grapple, and creatures with tentacles/appendages designed for grappling (Kraken, otyugh, glabrezu, choker, grell, grick, etc) have a +4 to grapple as well. That made the Otyugh on par since the bonuses stacked.
That gave the Otyugh a CMB of +11. With most of our 4th level warriors with a CMB of about +8 at that time, the DC to grapple was still 23 and the otyugh still needed a 12. It seemed pretty fair.
Robert
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On that note...how does Improved Grab now work with the whole 'taking a -20 penalty to their Grapple check to attack other people without penalty'? So if I have giant lobster man with two claw attacks, Improved Grab on a successful claw hit, and a +31 CMB, how does it work? If I hit Player A with one claw and make my grapple check to grapple them, I now immediately do the Constrict damage (which is on a successful grapple check) and then have one claw left. If I use said claw to attack another Player, then is that Grapple check only at +11? If I succeed, is it only a DC 26 (15+11) for either player to escape? If I fail, is it still a DC 46 (15+31) for the first player to escape?
It was a bit confusing, any advice is appreciated.
We increased the DC to 25 + opponents CMB for doing that.
In the above example of the otyugh - a CMB of 6 or higher would prevent an otyugh from being able to do that except on a 20! Again, it's worked pretty fairly for us so far.
Robert
We increased the DC to 25 + opponents CMB for doing that.In the above example of the otyugh - a CMB of 6 or higher would prevent an otyugh from being able to do that except on a 20! Again, it's worked pretty fairly for us so far.
Right, but did you still require a standard action each round to maintain the grapple (as per the Pathfinder grapple rules)? Or did you allow the grappler to (possibly) maintain the grapple indefinitely without rolling (as per the 3.5 grapple rules)? Or maybe require a free action to maintain the grapple?
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This is the relevant text for Improved Grab from the d20 srd
Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.
I would assume that, if you were taking that -20 penalty, then you would not need to make the standard action to maintain. Otherwise I can't see how a creature could 'use its remaining attacks'.
It does need clarification though. How Improved Grab works beyond the 'auto-grapple on hit' check has always confused me.
I think things are simpler than you're trying to make them. Using the new system, the only important thing about grappling is the grappled condition. Hence, a creature with the Improved Grab ability can take a -20 to his CMB and does not take the Grappled condition.
Beyond that, things seem pretty self-explanatory. One important note, though. If a creature chooses to take the -20, the victim still counts as encumbrance. This is important when figuring how fast the creature can move, if it can fly, etc. It may even give the creature penalties based on encumbrance level....
P.S. While we're on the subject, I'd just like to say that I liked the way the team was going with the original Alpha grapple rules. I thought it was really a step up from the old rules, and the current style feels inferior. Just IMO...
I think things are simpler than you're trying to make them. Using the new system, the only important thing about grappling is the grappled condition. Hence, a creature with the Improved Grab ability can take a -20 to his CMB and does not take the Grappled condition.
Beyond that, things seem pretty self-explanatory.
Well, except for this clause:
"If you successfully grapple an opponent,
you must continue to make a check each round, as a
standard action, to maintain the hold."
Does that apply or not if you take the -20? You're still successfully grappling an opponent (even if you're not grappled yourself).
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Right, but did you still require a standard action each round to maintain the grapple (as per the Pathfinder grapple rules)? Or did you allow the grappler to (possibly) maintain the grapple indefinitely without rolling (as per the 3.5 grapple rules)? Or maybe require a free action to maintain the grapple?
We increased the DC to 25 + opponents CMB for doing that.In the above example of the otyugh - a CMB of 6 or higher would prevent an otyugh from being able to do that except on a 20! Again, it's worked pretty fairly for us so far.
Well, it's still a Standard Action to maintain the grapple - even with the DC 25; but it frees the creature from the Grappled Condition. (which carries with it penalties to DEX, and cannot use their hands/appendages for anything else.
BUT - since that standard action that is required to maintain the hold allows for one additional thing to be done to the victim as part of the maintain: Damage, Pin, Move.
So in our experience with the otyugh, he got the +8 total bonus to grapple checks (+4 for having tentacles made for grappling as a racial bonus, and +4 for having Improved Grab), and once it got a hold on the wizard that it grappled, it contined to do damage to the wizard after it's successful maintain was made (With an additional +5 I might add since the wizard failed to break free - and the wizard was holding his bonded item (a bow in this case) so he suffered an additional -4 since he didn't have two hands free.
The Otyugh had a +11 when it started; +16 after the wizard failed to break free, and the wizard with only one hand free had a CMB of -2!
So the DC for the Otyugh was 13! The Otyugh in the subsequent round chose to do the DC 25 + CMB (which wound up a 23) and needed a 7 to maintain the grapple and not take on the grappled condition - continued to do damage and was able to defend itself normally.
Unfortunately it became a sitting duck and turned into mincemeat once the fighter and the paladin got there the following round since it could no longer attack anyone.
Robert
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I think things are simpler than you're trying to make them. Using the new system, the only important thing about grappling is the grappled condition. Hence, a creature with the Improved Grab ability can take a -20 to his CMB and does not take the Grappled condition.
Beyond that, things seem pretty self-explanatory. One important note, though. If a creature chooses to take the -20, the victim still counts as encumbrance. This is important when figuring how fast the creature can move, if it can fly, etc. It may even give the creature penalties based on encumbrance level....
P.S. While we're on the subject, I'd just like to say that I liked the way the team was going with the original Alpha grapple rules. I thought it was really a step up from the old rules, and the current style feels inferior. Just IMO...
I like the new system quite well.
However, one thing I don't like - and it could just be a wording issue - is that if you're PINNED (condition), it states you are "FLAT-FOOTED" as opposed to saying, "You lose your Dexterity." What this means is that those with Uncanny Dodge do not lose their Dex. This seems counter to most other forms of being immobilized that typicall DOES trump the Uncanny Dodge card.
I think this makes UD even that much more powerful if indeed this is going to be the way it is going to be.
Personally I think it needs to be re-ruled and/or re-worded to state taht the "pinned victim loses its Dexterity modifer"
Robert
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Right, but did you still require a standard action each round to maintain the grapple (as per the Pathfinder grapple rules)? Or did you allow the grappler to (possibly) maintain the grapple indefinitely without rolling (as per the 3.5 grapple rules)? Or maybe require a free action to maintain the grapple?
We increased the DC to 25 + opponents CMB for doing that.In the above example of the otyugh - a CMB of 6 or higher would prevent an otyugh from being able to do that except on a 20! Again, it's worked pretty fairly for us so far.
Well, it's still a Standard Action to maintain the grapple - even with the DC 25; but it frees the creature from the Grappled Condition. (which carries with it penalties to DEX, and cannot use their hands/appendages for anything else.
The problem is that if it IS a standard action to maintain the grapple still, even taking the -20 penalty, then the creature cannot use other natural attacks they may have to strike at other targets outside the 'grapple' (as per the Improved Grab text above).
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The problem is that if it IS a standard action to maintain the grapple still, even taking the -20 penalty, then the creature cannot use other natural attacks they may have to strike at other targets outside the 'grapple' (as per the Improved Grab text above).Right, but did you still require a standard action each round to maintain the grapple (as per the Pathfinder grapple rules)? Or did you allow the grappler to (possibly) maintain the grapple indefinitely without rolling (as per the 3.5 grapple rules)? Or maybe require a free action to maintain the grapple?
We increased the DC to 25 + opponents CMB for doing that.In the above example of the otyugh - a CMB of 6 or higher would prevent an otyugh from being able to do that except on a 20! Again, it's worked pretty fairly for us so far.
Well, it's still a Standard Action to maintain the grapple - even with the DC 25; but it frees the creature from the Grappled Condition. (which carries with it penalties to DEX, and cannot use their hands/appendages for anything else.
Right - that is a problem I agree. BUT since that was the case, we made the DC 25 (which is an increase of +10 as opposed to -20) since you still don't get any additional actions - for the DC being 10 higher the critters could alleviate themselves from the "grappled" condition (only) to give them their full defense modifiers, etc, and get to make attacks of opportunity - a fair trade-off for for a DC hike of +10 IMO.
Going forward I think "maintaining" should be part of an attack action, and the increase in DC could reduce maintaining to a Swift action. At the very least creatures with physiology designed for grappling and biting (such as the otyugh, giant constrictors, gricks etc) should be able to automatically deal their bite damage for free each round that they "maintain" the grapple - whether via a standard action or part of an attack action.
Gone is the ability to "make an attack at -4 to hit" that many PCs and/or creatures with natural attacks used to be able to do - they could grapple/constrict whatever - dealing damage, AND make one natural attack per round at -4.
I'm not sure how much of that needs to be represented; but at the very least creatures should be able to maintain at a higher DC to allow them the chance to attack and be allowed to make that 'bite' attack or 'constrict' attack for free as part of the maintain.
Robert
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Improved Grab came up in my game last night... I thought I would have been ready, especially after reading this thread a couple days back... but no! one of my players had to have the Close Quarter Fighting feat... so the game stopped and we scratched our heads for 10 min.
Here's what we ruled:
Since a regular dude does not provoke AoOs to initiate a grapple anymore, we ruled that he now does against people with the Close Quarter Fighting (CQF) feat. If the CQF AoO hits, the grappler can't grapple that round (grapple attempt wasted)
In the case of a grappler with Improved Grapple or a monster with Improved Grab: same as the old rules. Any damage dealt by the CQF AoO is added to the DC of the one trying to initiate the grapple (i.e. DC = 15 + CMB + damage dealt)
I think things are simpler than you're trying to make them. Using the new system, the only important thing about grappling is the grappled condition. Hence, a creature with the Improved Grab ability can take a -20 to his CMB and does not take the Grappled condition.
Beyond that, things seem pretty self-explanatory.
Well, except for this clause:
"If you successfully grapple an opponent,
you must continue to make a check each round, as a
standard action, to maintain the hold."Does that apply or not if you take the -20? You're still successfully grappling an opponent (even if you're not grappled yourself).
I guess you have a point there. I don't like the way the new system rules grapple checks to be standard actions. They should be melee attacks just like the majority of the other CMB checks. Did anyone else notice the lack of helplessness in the new pinned condition? I missed it, badly.
Anyway, I still rule the grapple checks out as melee attacks. Solves all the problems. No rolls to "maintain" the grapple, grapple is automatically maintained as long as the opponent doesn't break free. I don't give any other effects on maintaining the grapple, though, without another grapple check. Except for constrict, of course.
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Since a regular dude does not provoke AoOs to initiate a grapple anymore
Wait, what?
Did anyone else notice the lack of helplessness in the new pinned condition? I missed it, badly.
"Miss it"? From where? Pinned characters aren't helpless under 3.5 rules, either. (And, oy, talk about an over-powerful ability, if Pathfinder added "Helpess" to the Pinned condition.)
-- Jeff
Since a regular dude does not provoke AoOs to initiate a grapple anymore...
I don't know where you're seeing that. Under "Performing a Combat Maneuver", it says:
"Unless otherwise stated, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, add the damage to the DC to perform the maneuver."
"Miss it"? From where? Pinned characters aren't helpless under 3.5 rules, either. (And, oy, talk about an over-powerful ability, if Pathfinder added "Helpess" to the Pinned condition.)
-- Jeff
As I remember, a pinned character counts as helpless against attackers outside the grapple. I may be wrong, I guess, since I don't have my 3.5 handy to check that.
Regardless, it's actually ruder now. Now, instead of the guy pinning you needing a buddy to execute a coup-de-grace, he can tie you up and do it himself. I see a lot of characters carrying around a few feet of rope in Paizo's future...
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"Miss it"? From where? Pinned characters aren't helpless under 3.5 rules, either. (And, oy, talk about an over-powerful ability, if Pathfinder added "Helpess" to the Pinned condition.)
-- Jeff
As I remember, a pinned character counts as helpless against attackers outside the grapple. I may be wrong, I guess, since I don't have my 3.5 handy to check that.
Regardless, it's actually ruder now. Now, instead of the guy pinning you needing a buddy to execute a coup-de-grace, he can tie you up and do it himself. I see a lot of characters carrying around a few feet of rope in Paizo's future...
my character always carries a few sets of manacles for this reason.
But no, pinned is not helpless; just flat-footed. Which in my opinion makes being pinned not as bad since those with uncanny dodge can easily circumvent the largest penalty of being pinned.
It used to be - and should still be - "loses dexterity" instead of flat-footed - that way it affects everything equally.
Robert
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Since a regular dude does not provoke AoOs to initiate a grapple anymore, we ruled that he now does against people with the Close Quarter Fighting (CQF) feat. If the CQF AoO hits, the grappler can't grapple that round (grapple attempt wasted)
In the case of a grappler with Improved Grapple or a monster with Improved Grab: same as the old rules. Any damage dealt by the CQF AoO is added to the DC of the one trying to initiate the grapple (i.e. DC = 15 + CMB + damage dealt)
actually grappling always provoke an AoO unless one has "Improved Grapple" feat.
I would instead rule that those with CQF allows one to make an AoO even if the other had Imp Grapple (and/or Improved Grab), and IF the AoO does hit, it follows the same rules and increases the DC based on damage (as you had done).
Robert
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As I remember, a pinned character counts as helpless against attackers outside the grapple.
No, although it was a weirdly common misperception. (Our group played that way for a short time, too.)
Regardless, it's actually ruder now. Now, instead of the guy pinning you needing a buddy to execute a coup-de-grace, he can tie you up and do it himself.
I have to admit, that rule strikes me as pretty absurd, and if it makes it into the Pathfinder final, it still won't make it into my game. It takes longer than six seconds to securely tie someone up, rodeo calves notwithstanding, even when they're not actively squirming. (It does make me want to run a Pin-and-Tie event for commoners at some noble tourney, though ... )
-- Jeff
(It does make me want to run a Pin-and-Tie event for commoners at some noble tourney, though ... )
-- Jeff
That would be hilarious. I'd like to run two different versions of that, switching the side the PCs are playing.
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Since a regular dude does not provoke AoOs to initiate a grapple anymore...I don't know where you're seeing that. Under "Performing a Combat Maneuver", it says:
"Unless otherwise stated, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, add the damage to the DC to perform the maneuver."
Thanks Hogarth, I missed this!
Now the Close Quarter Feat makes sense again. If you hit, you completely negate the incoming grapple; if the attacker has Improved Grab, then the attacker gets to add any damage you deal to his Grapple DC... Thanks!