What would you like your favorite monster template to look like in Pathfinder?

[Courrain]

What would you like your favorite monster template to look like in Pathfinder?

Templates, love or leave them, have made the monsters in D&D more versatile than they have been in previous editions. They allow you to take a monster, and turn him into something that the players might not suspect. Or they can turn a player character into something more powerful (at the expense of having to gain more XP in order to advance to the next level). But how will Paizo make them more interesting for us Pathfinder fans? ;)

My favorite template in D&D has always been the Half-Dragon template. So here is what I think should be changed with regards to Pathfinder:

(1) I think that all Half-Dragons regardless of size should have useable wings that would allow them to progress from gliding to true flight. I never really understood why D&D allowed Half-dragons of size Large and larger to have wings and fly speed when those with the Half-Celestial or Half-Fiend templates have them.

(2) Make their breath weapon's range and damage scaleable just like the Dragonborn's in Races of the Dragon.

(3) Changing their attribute bonuses to +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, and +2 Cha. Half-dragons should have good attribute bonuses for all of their attributes. ;)

Thoughts?

[Kvantum]

Courrain wrote:

What would you like your favorite monster template to look like in Pathfinder?

(1) I think that all Half-Dragons regardless of size should have useable wings that would allow them to progress from gliding to true flight. I never really understood why D&D allowed Half-dragons of size Large and larger to have wings and fly speed when those with the Half-Celestial or Half-Fiend templates have them.

(2) Make their breath weapon's range and damage scaleable just like the Dragonborn's in Races of the Dragon.

(3) Changing their attribute bonuses to +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, and +2 Cha. Half-dragons should have good attribute bonuses for all of their attributes. ;)

Thoughts?

(1) Well, half-dragon in 3.5 is now LA +3 instead of Half-Celestial or Half-Fiend's +4. I think the flight is the whole reason for the difference.

(2): A very good idea. It's almost useless right now for an ECL 20 (17 class levels) half-dragon. 6d8 damage with a pathetic DC of 10 + 1/2 racial hit dice (which for most races is 0, after all) + Con mod is essentially meaningless at 20th level.

(3) No Dex increase. True Dragons all have a Dex of 10 regardless of age category, after all. Str +6, Con +2, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2 sounds better to me.

[Heathansson]

I think half fiends and half celestials oughtta be more varied, to be more like the specific ancestor in question.
There's that drow thing with four arms from FR kinda; something like that....
I mean a half-succubus and a half-marilith ought to be two totally different critchers, IMHO.

[Dogbert]

Courrain wrote:

What would you like your favorite monster template to look like in Pathfinder?

My favorite? By far and large the Lich

What would I like to see in the lich?
a) Intelligence Requirement (19+): Being undead doesn't make you smarter, it's you who have to be a genius to enact the lich formula correctly.
b) Additional Feat Requirement (Brew Potion): I'd love Paizo to bring back the potion that used to be part of the ritual. While the phyllactery houses the creature's soul, the potion was what enacted the change into an undead creature. This formula was a concoction of extreme toxicity that required the spellcaster to succeed a saving throw vs poison. If the save succeeded, he died to rise as a lich a moment later... and if he failed he died and his soul was destroyed, leaving him forever dead.

Also I'd like their description to involve less repetition of the word evil, and focus more on a lich' disturbed psyche that results from combining an absolute devotion to magic as to be willing to drink the potion for the promise of having eternity to delve into The Art, and the guts to actually drink it and risk your very soul. This disturbed psyche being accentuated by the isolation of someone that cares for nothing else than magic and increasing his personal power, isolation that extends for centuries or even millenia, causing them to often lose their grip on reality, forgetting their former lives and names altogether (and the folklore that finding out a lich' name granted you power over the creature). I want liches as detached from the world as to have no use for concepts like good or evil as we know them (even when their actions are all too easy to come as evil to outsiders...or anyone not insane for that matter). I want players to see a lich and piss their pants thinking "this thing has had at least a century to develop magics that aren't even in the book".

Finally, I'd like the Demilich to be returned to the lich' base description rather than being handled as a "generic epic monster", I want to see again how the magics that kept the lich' body in place erode over the course of millenia until nothing but its skull and ashes remain, point at which the lich has already learned everything the prime material plane can teach it anyway, and just leaves its body to decay in order to continue learning, resarching places unknown in foreign planes of existence... until some fool discovers the former lich' lair and disturbs the remains.

Making a long story short. I'm asking for fluff, nice, tasty fluff.

[KaeYoss]

Heathansson wrote:

I think half fiends and half celestials oughtta be more varied, to be more like the specific ancestor in question.

There's that drow thing with four arms from FR kinda; something like that....
I mean a half-succubus and a half-marilith ought to be two totally different critchers, IMHO.

I think a list of powers, with a ancesters that would grant them, would work well here.

In fact, I'd go as far as make it a point system: Each of those powers is worth X points.

Suites of resistances and immunities would have point costs as well, as would suites of ability score enhancements.

LA/ECL would depend on the point cost.

Example (Half-Fiend)
Powers:

Extra arms (Marilith-born) (6 points): The half-fiend has an extra pair of arms. Can use up to 4 weapons (or up to two two-handed weapons), and use multiweapon fighting and multiattack and so on.

Change Shape (Succubus-born)(3 points): The half-fiend can assume the form of any small or medium humanoid.

True Seeing (erinyes, nalfeshnee, glabrezu, balor) (6 points): as the spell

Impale (barbed devil) (2 points): The half-fiend has several barbed stingers all over his body, he deals 3d6 (3d4 small, 3d8 large, etc) plus 1 1/2 times his strength modifier on a successful grapple check

Resistances:

Devil, lesser (2 points): resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10; +4 to saves versus poison.

Devil (4 points): as above, but immune to fire and poison; DR 5/ silver or good

Devil, greater (6 points): as above, but also regeneration 5 (good weapons and spells); DR 10/ silver and good

Demon, lesser (3 points):reist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10, electricity 10, +4 saves against poison.

Demon (5 points): as above, but immune to electricity and poison; DR 5/ cold iron or good

Demon, greater (6) points: as above, but immune to fire; DR 10/ cold iron and good.

(Though I guess you could also split those further, into energy resistances/immunities and other resistances/immunities, though the general demon/devil themes should remain.

Dogbert wrote:

What would I like to see in the lich?
a) Intelligence Requirement (19+):

That would preclude divine liches. I prefer liches to be versatile

Dogbert wrote:

b) [b]Additional Feat Requirement (Brew Potion):

I think the lich requirements are best left open, secret, different for every contender. It might invovle brewing a vile concoction out of unspeakable requirements, or it might involve a specific sacrifice at a specific time in a specific place and in a specific way(three noble-born orphans at midnight in a new moon night, in a place sacred to urgathoa, where they have to be exsanguinated by undead stirges you then have to disintegrate and breathe in the lingering dust), or any other way.

Dogbert wrote:

If the save succeeded, he died to rise as a lich a moment later... and if he failed he died and his soul was destroyed, leaving him forever dead.

Very anti-climatic, if years of preparation are wasted by bad dice luck...

[JoelF847]

While it's not currently a template, I'd like to see Dire become a template that could be applied to all animals (and possibly vermin, and low intelligence magical beasts).

[Set]

JoelF847 wrote:

While it's not currently a template, I'd like to see Dire become a template that could be applied to all animals (and possibly vermin, and low intelligence magical beasts).

You just want a template for Dire Magical Beasts so that you can have a Dire Flumph, admit it!

But seriously, I would love to see a Dire template. Some critters might need an intermediary stage (the Dire template would break down if there wasn't a normal Giant Bat to be 'Dired up').

I would like to see non-Dire Giant Bats, and non-Giant Dire Eagles and Owls, for the big scary not-sentient (or friendly) raptor encounters. Intelligent good-aligned Giant Eagles and Owls are a long-time tradition, sure, but I would like to see some plain old really, really big and mean Giant Eagles and Giant Owls that aren't intelligent and friendly...

[Set]

Courrain wrote:

What would you like your favorite monster template to look like in Pathfinder?

(1) I think that all Half-Dragons regardless of size should have useable wings that would allow them to progress from gliding to true flight.

(2) Make their breath weapon's range and damage scaleable just like the Dragonborn's in Races of the Dragon.

(3) Changing their attribute bonuses to +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, and +2 Cha. Half-dragons should have good attribute bonuses for all of their attributes. ;)

1) Agreed with the Flight thing. A half-dragon wolf or kobold should have wings that work.

2) Agreed with the scaling breath weapon. It makes the template more versatile. As it stands, the breath weapon is *way* too good to add to a lower level encounter, such as the aforementioned wolves or kobolds, but ends up being pretty limp when attached to a Fire Giant or Efreeti or something.

3) No Dex bonus, definitely, and I'm not convinced that an Int bonus is really required. Some dragons are born smarter than the average human, and some, like the White Dragon, aren't. Half-Dragons being stronger, tougher, having keener senses / stronger wills are all absolutely sensible. A Charisma bonus fits with the D&D specifics of dragonkind with fearful presences and innate sorcery, so that can stay too, but an Intelligence bonus seems less likely, and a Dexterity bonus right out.

[KaeYoss]

Oh, not a template now, but I think it should be: Planetouched. (Augmented) Humanoids infused with goodness, evil, order, chaos, fire, water, air or earth.

[JoelF847]

Set wrote:

JoelF847 wrote:

While it's not currently a template, I'd like to see Dire become a template that could be applied to all animals (and possibly vermin, and low intelligence magical beasts).

You just want a template for Dire Magical Beasts so that you can have a Dire Flumph, admit it!

I was actually shooting for a Dire Carbuncle, but a Dire Flumph would be another great addition to RPG lore.

Neither of them could compete with a Dire Giant Space Hampster (two-headed, lernean).

[flash_cxxi]

Set wrote:

You just want a template for Dire Magical Beasts so that you can have a Dire Flumph, admit it!

Dire Flumph, that would Rock Cleveland Hard!

In related news: Dire is a good idea for a Template.

[Courrain]

Set wrote:

1) Agreed with the Flight thing. A half-dragon wolf or kobold should have wings that work.

2) Agreed with the scaling breath weapon. It makes the template more versatile. As it stands, the breath weapon is *way* too good to add to a lower level encounter, such as the aforementioned wolves or kobolds, but ends up being pretty limp when attached to a Fire Giant or Efreeti or something.

3) No Dex bonus, definitely, and I'm not convinced that an Int bonus is really required. Some dragons are born smarter than the average human, and some, like the White Dragon, aren't. Half-Dragons being stronger, tougher, having keener senses / stronger wills are all absolutely sensible. A Charisma bonus fits with the D&D specifics of dragonkind with fearful presences and innate sorcery, so that can stay too, but an Intelligence bonus seems less likely, and a Dexterity bonus right out.

(1) With Flight being a possibility in the revised version of the Half-Dragon template, Half-Dragons would gain the Fly skill as a class skill regardless of what class they took.

(2) Excellent. ;) With a scaling breath weapon, it becomes more likely that Half-Dragons could use the Metabreath feats from the Draconomicon to enhance their breath weapon. And if they are an arcane spellcaster, they could gain access to the Metabreath spells as well. ;)

(3) Okay. No Dex Bonus being granted to the base race by the template, and no bonus to Intelligence. So would we be seeing attribute bonuses being assigned just to Strength, Constitution, Wisdom and Charisma then? As for the keener senses, Half-Dragons could have a +2 bonus to all Perception checks and have the Perception skill as a class skill.