[Feat] Manyshot and Archer power

[Fimir]

First of all a question: What was the problem with Manyshot in D&D 3.5 to rewrite it completely in Pathfinder? Forgive me if I missed previous discussions on that.

The Manyshot feat as it is now gives too much power to Archer archetypes too soon, especially when combined with the new feat Deadly Aim.

At level 6, by combining Manyshot with Rapid shot, an archer can shoot 4 arrows with a minimum of feats. Only a -2 penalty from rapid shot applies. Only disadvantage with manyshot added is that the extra arrow can have no sneak or crit damage. It seems that 4 arrows a round is very strong compared to a melee fighter who takes much higher risk in close combat and has to get by with 2 attacks. The alternative being a heavy investment in 2 weapon feats with higher prereqs and penalties.

I would propose to at least put prereqs on Manyshot so that it can not be taken before level 11-15. Then it would still be very powerfull, but as it is written now, I think it is not very balanced.

[DougErvin]

I am surprised Jason has not commented on this problem. Right now the only limiting factor I can see is the number of arrows an archer can carry. Assuming a Dex of 16 and using all 3 feats I can see 4 attacks in a round at +1, +1, -4, -9 to hit with 1d8 + 3 damage. The last one will probably miss but you can always roll a natural 20. I will have to consider a ranger archer as my next character.

Doug

[Fimir]

DougErvin wrote:

Assuming a Dex of 16 and using all 3 feats I can see 4 attacks in a round at +1, +1, -4, -9 to hit with 1d8 + 3 damage.

I think you are missing the point a bit.

Let's compare a human 6th level melee fighter with an archer fighter, with standard point buy of 15 points as default in Pathfinder.

The archer has 15 dex to start, +2 (human), +1 (lvl 4), +2 (gloves of dex +2) for a total of 20 dex. Suppose 14 str, a +1 longbow, weapon focus and specialisation, and off course weapon training.

Attack: 6(bab) +5(dex) +1(weapon) +1(focus) +1(training) = +14
Damage: 1d8 +2(str) +1(weapon) +2(specialisation) +1(training) = 1d8 +6.

So a full round attack with rapid shot and manyshot would look like this: +12/+12/+7. If the first attack hits, it will do 2d8 +12 damage. The other attacks do 1d8+6. If the attacks are within 30ft, point blank shot adds +1 to both attack and damage.

The melee fighter has 15 str to start, +2 (human), +1 (lvl 4), +2 (gauntlets of ogre power +2) for a total of 20 str. Suppose a +1 longsword, weapon focus and specialisation, and again weapon training.

Attack: 6(bab) +5(str) +1(weapon) +1(focus) +1(training) = +14
Damage: 1d8 + 5(str) +1(weapon) +2(specialisation) +1(training) = 1d8 +9.

Full round attack: +14/+9, damage 1d8+9.

The archer will do a lot more damage!

Now some people will ask for a comparison with a 2 weapon fighter. But to have greater 2 weapon fighting, the fighter would need dex 17! Either this means less str, or else a lot less hit points, which the melee fighter needs more than the archer to begin with. And if he does take 2 weapon fighting, he can only add half his str to his off-hand attacks. And it has to be a light weapon, further reducing his damage in both hands as he needs the same weapon to benefit from weapon focus and specialisation. I'm pretty sure the 2 weapon fighter will do little better than the sword and board.

[DougErvin]

You are tight I had not thought ti through. A fighter archer will generate a lot of damage. I agree with your reasonable assumption about magic and training.

Archers will rule.

Doug

[Paul Johnson 245]

I am confused as to why a damage focused build (archer) is doing more damage than a non-damage focused build (melee using longsword) is a bad thing?

Compare it to a greatsword wielder stacking strength and raging with proper feats, namely Overhead Chop and Backswing. The damage comes out the same -- the Archer has a +12/+12/+7 routine with 2d8+12 (21 average) damage on the first hit and 1d8+6 (10.5 average) on the second and third for a total average of 44, whereas the Barbarian comes out to +14/+9 with 2d6+15 (22 average) damage per hit with again a total average of 44.

The Archer is fine, leave him be.

[Kalyth]

Also what two feats did the melee fighter take inplace of Rapid Shot and Many Shot? Both had Weapon Focus and Weapons Spec but the Archer had Rapid Shot and Many Shot in addition. What to extra feats could we tack on to the melee fighter and then take a second look.

[Josiah Worcester]

A better question: why is manyshot a full-round action? At least part of the point of manyshot is being able to run and then shoot a lot, after all...

[tribeof1]

I have a Fighter-Archer with Manyshot in my playtest campaign, and I've been meaning to bring this issue up.

The various new Fighter goodies (Weapon Training, and esp. Armor Training) combine to make the high Dex archer a very potent combat character. The PFRPG version of Manyshot, which has relatively low prerequisites and no downside (other than using up more arrows) pushes things a little too far -- it's basically just 1d8+bonus free damage every round.

So far in the campaign, the archer (a half-elf Ftr 7 at the moment) has completely out-classed the two-handed weapon wielding Ftr 7 in combat. The archer, thanks to Armor Training and high Dex, has a better AC, better chance to hit and does considerably more damage firing 4 arrows a round with Manyshot and Rapid Shot. With a +1 composite bow, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Training and Strength, I think each arrow hits for about 1d8+7 or 1d8+8 damage. That's a lot of bonus damage for a single feat with no penalties.

So, there needs to be some sort of limitation on Manyshot: whether that means a penalty to hit (although Rapid Shot and Deadeye Shot or whatever already have that), significantly higher prerequisites (pushing it into the 11-15th level range) or allowing it to be used only with standard actions - my personal favorite, as it encourages the character to actually move in combat rather than stand still/5-foot step and full attack.

[TriOmegaZero]

Why is this overpowered? As you move up, his archery is going to fall behind like any other damage-dealer. Monsters are going to get in his face, reach is going to prevent him from getting his bow attacks unless he goes out of the way to get protection against that, and wizards of his level are going to throw up Wind Walls that render him useless. Why make him more miserable than he already is?

Edit: And if number of attacks is the problem, what about the two-weapon fighter with his four attacks a round at only a -2?

[Theodore Tibbitts]

My biggest concern with the change to Manyshot is it is a nerf to Scouts, since a Scout with Greater Manyshot used to be decent. Now it's unclear what, it anything, Greater Manyshot does.