Why not simply make Dodge an always-on +1 dodge bonus to AC that doesn't apply when flat-footed? That's simple and easy to remember and use.
I'd actually prefer it to remain a swift action, but have the bonus scale with BAB: +1, +1/4 points of BAB would ensure that warrior classes get the most benefit (+6 max) from this combat feat, whereas wizards would cap at +3. Indeed, I'd like to see this logic extended to the other combat feats as well.
I'm somewhat concerned that even though there's now a small scaling (+2 if you have 10 or more ranks in Acrobatics) that it's not enough.
I feel that scaling combat feats based on things that melee characters can't afford (e.g., Acrobatics skill) is exactly the wrong approach. Combat feats should benefit combatants the most. Scaling them with BAB ensures that. Scaling them with, say, caster level, or ranks in skills that 2 point/level classes can't afford to keep maxed out, sends the message that melee classes are now officially obsolete, and should just be phased out of the game after 6th level or so.
I agree with you that a +2 bonus to AC at 20th level is somewhat insulting, insofar as a 1st level spell can give the wizard a +4 bonus all day (mage armor), or the cleric a temporary +6 bonus (shield of faith).
The following feats all use up a swift action:
Arcane Armor Master
Arcane Armor Training
Arcane Strike
Dodge
Quicken Spell
Turning Smite
I can easily see an Eldritch Knight have all of those except the Turning Smite. Compbined with the Spell Critical then swift action management becomes a critical component of playing this kind of character. My bard will have to decide betweeen defense (Dodge) or offense (Arcane Strike).
Doug
In our campaign, we play it as an always on ability. The 3.5 version was nitpick bookkeeping, and the Pathfinder version is a little limiting. If it is to remain a swift action, perhaps tying more to the Acrobatics skill would be good:
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC. In addition, as a swift action you may increase this dodge bonus to AC by +1 for every 5 ranks you have in Acrobatics until the start of your next turn.
Here, you have the best of both worlds. For those who don't invest in acrobatics, there is a useful benefit. For those that do, there is a bonus at the cost of a swift action.
For those that invest in Acrobatics the benefits scale as follows:
Level 5 (5 ranks) +2 bonus
Level 10 (10 ranks) +3 bonus
Level 15 (15 ranks) +4 bonus
Level 20 (20 ranks) +5 bonus
Note I'm assuming that the one-time +3 bonus for a class skill is just that and not +3 bonus ranks.
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Note I'm assuming that the one-time +3 bonus for a class skill is just that and not +3 bonus ranks.
You're right - that's how it works. The +3 is a bonus to the roll - the ranks are based on the number of skill points/ranks you've allocated to a given skill (which can be no more than 1 per character level).
Robert
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC. In addition, as a swift action you may increase this dodge bonus to AC by +1 for every 5 ranks you have in Acrobatics until the start of your next turn.
Again, I feel that fighters and paladins in particular should not be barred from gaining any real benefit from this feat -- they get only 2 skill points/level, and levying a "skills tax" on the use of their combat feats is just plain cruel.
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Here's my problem with Dodge: it helps those who are already Dextrous. It doesn't make sense that someone who ISNT dextrous to be agile and have ability to Dodge, but it makes just as little sense to add the feat that is going to give a +1 to someone who already has the high Dex.
Furthermore, the only way to make a good go at it, is that you have to have 10 ranks in a skill.....which once again benefits those who are already dextrous.
The fighter, cannot typically afford allocating those kinds of skill points, the paladin and cleric (even if they COULD find a way to get a 13 DEX) would certainly not be able to afford the skill allocation.
Once again it seems to benefit the ranger, rogue, and bard - most of whom are going to have a) the capable DEX to qualify for it b) the available skill points to max it out and c) because they already have a good dex mod to their AC the dodge isn't even as required.
It's the equivalent of adding a prereq to Weapon Focus of "a good BAB" Well, it helps them, but it really helps those without the good BAB more! They're the ones who really need it.
So - since Dodge +1 bonus all the time may be too lucrative for the reasons above - (those who easily take it and max in it don't need it), its reduced by applying a restriction that it requires a Swift action to use.
That all being said - it's a staplepoint feat, it's a prereq for a lot of good feats, and I don't see the pragmatism of dumping it from the system. It just isn't a well-designed feat (yet).
How to fix it? I don't know. The swift action seems kinda clunky and unuseable. The old way of picking a target - was too complicated for record-keeping.
I guess it's a feat designed to help the rogue....? (and rogue types). Fighters are now encouraged to have higher DEX's than ever before (with Armor Training class feature), but they still would rarely max out the feat due to lack of skill points.
The paladin certainly would rarely benefit from it, and hardly EVER benefit completely.
Perhaps removing the Skill point adherence and have it scale to BAB would be good - but that would benefit the fighters more than the rogue - and the fighters certainly dont need the benefit is their dex is good, Armor Training is paying off in dividends - however the rogues (albeit lesser bonus than the fighters) would not go away when flat-footed (thanks to uncanny dodge) so there is the trade-off.
And once again that would leave other armored types like clerics and paladins in the dust by a combo of Armor training, Dodge and its increases based on their BAB making it even better - so....
So every idea has a downfall of making it too powerful as far as I can see.
As is it's klunky, attemps to fix it don't sound right (yet), and its a feat that just needs to stay for backwards compatibility and the impetus it puts on the feat trees.
Here is the only thing I see it working:
No prereq. +1 Dodge bonus to AC all the time. At 10th level this goes to +2. At 20th level to +3.
It's still a bonus that disappears when one is flat-footed, so rogues and barbarians will still have that uncanny dodge ace in the how to make it worth their while.
Sorry for my rambling.
Robert
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Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC. In addition, as a swift action you may increase this dodge bonus to AC by +1 for every 5 ranks you have in Acrobatics until the start of your next turn.Again, I feel that fighters and paladins in particular should not be barred from gaining any real benefit from this feat -- they get only 2 skill points/level, and levying a "skills tax" on the use of their combat feats is just plain cruel.
you and I are in agreement on that.
Most paladins (and clerics) aren't going to have the dex needed for that feat anyway - which is part of the problem IMO.
Robert
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC. In addition, as a swift action you may increase this dodge bonus to AC by +1 for every 5 ranks you have in Acrobatics or for every 5 points of BAB, until the start of your next turn.
For those that invest in Acrobatics or have a high BAB, the benefits scale as follows:
Level 5 (5 ranks/+5 BAB) +2 bonus
Level 10 (10 ranks/+10 BAB) +3 bonus
Level 15 (15 ranks/+15 BAB) +4 bonus
Level 20 (20 ranks/+20 BAB) +5 bonus
This may be getting too rules laden though.
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC. In addition, as a swift action you may increase this dodge bonus to AC by +1 for every 5 ranks you have in Acrobatics or for every 5 points of BAB, until the start of your next turn.
For those that invest in Acrobatics or have a high BAB, the benefits scale as follows:
Level 5 (5 ranks/+5 BAB) +2 bonus
Level 10 (10 ranks/+10 BAB) +3 bonus
Level 15 (15 ranks/+15 BAB) +4 bonus
Level 20 (20 ranks/+20 BAB) +5 bonusThis may be getting too rules laden though.
I like this as a solution.
Doug
No prereq. +1 Dodge bonus to AC all the time. At 10th level this goes to +2. At 20th level to +3.
The simplification side of me likes this idea a lot. I'll say I don't really care for who should/ should not benefit from it. And as part of a group who uses the classic system for generating ability scores, I find it dubious when others suggest that X character can't afford to have a Y score, because you don't know your scores until rolled in that system which we favor and is a viable and enjoyable way to create a character.
The bottom line should be is the feat good or not and also, is the feat cumbersome or not? I like your suggestion here because it provides a good benefit and is easy to understand and use and in particular (as I am very sensitive to running high level play) doesn't muck up high level play.
The fringe benefit nature of the swift action to gain a higher dodge bonus is more interesting however. Looking at it from your perspective, the only class that this feat might look down upon is the paladin. Clerics don't need it as they have several spells to increase AC. Even so, they could still benefit from the feat. Just not as much as certain characters. I still like it being tied to just Acrobatics. I don't see it as a skill tax as investing in Acrobatics is good in and of itself.
We should keep in mind that it is an entry level feat for several more... an always on +1 dodge bonus to AC isn't great, but isn't bad either. At the very least, it is on par with a +1 enhancement on armor.
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I would like to see the swift action go away, and make it an always on ability. As for scaling I think it is fine the way it is. It isn't there for the fighter and paladin, they already have this cool thing called Armor. I would say it is there for the people who do not use a lot of armor to help them where they need it. It also makes perfect sense that it needs dex. it is called Dodge after all.
I'm sure there are lots of version of improved dodge too.
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I would like to see the swift action go away, and make it an always on ability. As for scaling I think it is fine the way it is. It isn't there for the fighter and paladin, they already have this cool thing called Armor. I would say it is there for the people who do not use a lot of armor to help them where they need it. It also makes perfect sense that it needs dex. it is called Dodge after all.
In my experience the best armor classes are those of the Dex characters. They get the fast movement and the higher AC. I will gladly agree with you if Armor gets fixed then strike the Swift and call it good.
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Confession: I never even noticed the Swift Action part before. Um ... what does that mean? How does that affect the way Dodge plays out?
I've always declared who I'm using it against and that's it ... HEY! I just noticed the new Dodge isn't vs. one opponent anymore!
Back to the topic ... You're allowed one Swift Action, right? So you can't both Dodge and do things like cast quickened spell or activate magic items (unless you do it as your standard action). Honestly, that doesn't seem horrible.
I totally get that it is an unnecessary complication, but can somebody explain the part than I am almost certainly missing?
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Back to the topic ... You're allowed one Swift Action, right? So you can't both Dodge and do things like cast quickened spell or activate magic items (unless you do it as your standard action). Honestly, that doesn't seem horrible.
I totally get that it is an unnecessary complication, but can somebody explain the part than I am almost certainly missing?
You have pointed out the two issues that concern me. In my home game I made Dodge a flat +1 AC years ago because I got tired of the headache's attatched with keeping track of who the dodge buddies were(usually 3+ PC's had one and then there were the monsters sheesh). This is less complicated than that, but with only 1 swift action/round it is a limiter that I don't know that 1 point of AC is really so powerful as to need it.
You're allowed one Swift Action, right? So you can't both Dodge and do things like cast quickened spell or activate magic items (unless you do it as your standard action). Honestly, that doesn't seem horrible. I totally get that it is an unnecessary complication, but can somebody explain the part than I am almost certainly missing?
How many other combat feats are going to require swift actions? What about Power Attack? Combat Expertise? These seems to many people like an underhanded way of putting the Alpha's "1 combat feat per round" restriction back in. And, honestly, martial characters need fewer restrictions, not more.
I mentioned this in another (broader) thread,
but I also agree that Dodge being a Swift Action is potentially problematic:
most of the Barbarian's Rage Ability's are Swift Actions or Immediate Actions
(which are borrowing Swift Actions from the next round)
so a Barbarian will not even be able to use this Feat if they want to be making use of a major Class Ability.
i guess if this is felt to be balanced and appropriate, that's fine,
i just don't want it to 'slip under the rug' accidentally without regard to consequences like this.
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC. In addition, as a swift action you may increase this dodge bonus to AC by +1 for every 5 ranks you have in Acrobatics or for every 5 points of BAB, until the start of your next turn.
For those that invest in Acrobatics or have a high BAB, the benefits scale as follows:
Level 5 (5 ranks/+5 BAB) +2 bonus
Level 10 (10 ranks/+10 BAB) +3 bonus
Level 15 (15 ranks/+15 BAB) +4 bonus
Level 20 (20 ranks/+20 BAB) +5 bonusThis may be getting too rules laden though.
I like this as a solution.
Doug
I like it too. It doesn't seem too rules laden, though. If your character has Dodge, you should already know in advance how much of a bonus he'll get.
(Currently my group uses the "always on" house-rule for Dodge; that "pick an enemy" jibber-jabber is annoying.)
Leave dodge at +1 bonus.
In every campaign I have DMing or played, there is at least 2 if not 3 players taking it.
And if you begin to scale dodge with levels, why not scale all feats ? What about weapon focus/specialization ? +2/+2 feats ? Improved maneuvers ? And so on...
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I've used the standing +1 AC bonus for the Dodge bonus at my table for years. The 3.5 mechanic was a bit clunky. The Beta version's use of swift action seems like another potentially clunky mechanic. Maybe this feat needs the KISS principle applied?
Something like:
Dodge: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC. You must be aware of an attack and not flatfooted to gain this bonus. This feat may only be taken once.
The more I think about it, the more I like the seemingly common house-rule of making it an always on +1 dodge bonus. It's a meaningful improvement over 3.5 for sure. As currently written in Pathfinder, it is as annoying as the 3.5 dodge, but in a different way. It's just one more layer of complexity that doesn't add to the game.
If a little spice is really needed however, dodge could state that as a swift action, you may increase the dodge bonus this feat grants to +2. Written this way it cuts out any "clunkiness".
I just realized that care should be taken that this feat doesn't make fighting defensively obsolete. If the bonus goes beyond +1 does anyone think that it does?
I would think it would stack with Fighting Defensively...
My concern vis a vis the Swift Action is that this is "Required Feat" if you want to go down the Mobility tree,
yet if it has NO effect unless you spend a Swift Action, meaning Barbarians (and others using Swift Actions alot)
may get very little use out of it. I'm sure there's a reasonable compromise to it, though.
I would think it would stack with Fighting Defensively...
My concern vis a vis the Swift Action is that this is "Required Feat" if you want to go down the Mobility tree,
yet if it has NO effect unless you spend a Swift Action, meaning Barbarians (and others using Swift Actions alot)
may get very little use out of it. I'm sure there's a reasonable compromise to it, though.
Perhaps I should explain my thought in a more thorough fashion:
Dodge (Combat)
You have mastered a defensive stance that allows you to easily react to your opponents.
Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to your AC. As a swift action, you may increase the dodge bonus to AC this feat grants to +2. A condition that makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC also makes you lose the benefit of this feat.
The feat remains viable weather you use a swift action or not. Using a swift action however makes it better. There is a lot of good to this feat written this way and no drawbacks, whatsoever.
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Dodge (Combat)
You have mastered a defensive stance that allows you to easily react to your opponents.
Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to your AC. As a swift action, you may increase the dodge bonus to AC this feat grants to +2. A condition that makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC also makes you lose the benefit of this feat.
Nice. Or maybe instead of the flat +2, the swift action could trigger the level-based scaling.
By-the-way, I started a thread here suggesting that if we do make more feats scale, that we try to make them scale the way for consistency sake.
And thanks everyone for the examples of swift actions. I've never played a barbarian so I hadn't thought of those abilities being incompatible with Dodge.
Dodge (Combat)
You have mastered a defensive stance that allows you to easily react to your opponents.
Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to your AC. As a swift action, you may increase the dodge bonus to AC this feat grants to +2. A condition that makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC also makes you lose the benefit of this feat.The feat remains viable weather you use a swift action or not. Using a swift action however makes it better. There is a lot of good to this feat written this way and no drawbacks, whatsoever.
Great. I'm the original poster and I like this solution very much.
If you want to use your swift action for other things, the feat still has some benefit.I hope Jason likes it as well.
I do too, as well. Jason please look at this.
Dodge (Combat)
You have mastered a defensive stance that allows you to easily react to your opponents.
Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to your AC. As a swift action, you may increase the dodge bonus to AC this feat grants to +2. A condition that makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC also makes you lose the benefit of this feat.The feat remains viable weather you use a swift action or not. Using a swift action however makes it better. There is a lot of good to this feat written this way and no drawbacks, whatsoever.
The rationale for how this feat functions is this:
The always on part of the feat represents your acquired ability to dodge attacks on instinct. The swift action part of the feat represents actively focusing on your ability to instinctively dodge attacks. It is similar to fighting defensively in this sense.
Why not simply make Dodge an always-on +1 dodge bonus to AC that doesn't apply when flat-footed? That's simple and easy to remember and use.QFT. I'm a big fan of these type of rule changes that makes things simpler and more fun.
It could be ok like this. But don't increase the bonus, it will be too good.
It could be ok like this. But don't increase the bonus, it will be too good.
The bonus should scale with BAB. Consider: a wizard can use a single 1st-level spell (mage armor) to get a +4 bonus to AC all day, with no swift activation each round. A cleric can cast a persistent shield of faith and get +2 to +6 to AC all day, with no such activation each round.
And wizards and clerics both get a LOT more spells than fighters get feats. So if a single feat is worse than a 1st-level spell, all martial characters are pretty much doomed to eventual uselessness, in the long run.
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Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC. In addition, as a swift action you may increase this dodge bonus to AC by +1 for every 5 ranks you have in Acrobatics or for every 5 points of BAB, until the start of your next turn.
For those that invest in Acrobatics or have a high BAB, the benefits scale as follows:
Level 5 (5 ranks/+5 BAB) +2 bonus
Level 10 (10 ranks/+10 BAB) +3 bonus
Level 15 (15 ranks/+15 BAB) +4 bonus
Level 20 (20 ranks/+20 BAB) +5 bonusThis may be getting too rules laden though.
I like this version I wold be OK with the swift bonus being smaller as well.
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Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC. In addition, as a swift action you may increase this dodge bonus to AC by +1 for every 5 ranks you have in Acrobatics or for every 5 points of BAB, until the start of your next turn.
For those that invest in Acrobatics or have a high BAB, the benefits scale as follows:
Level 5 (5 ranks/+5 BAB) +2 bonus
Level 10 (10 ranks/+10 BAB) +3 bonus
Level 15 (15 ranks/+15 BAB) +4 bonus
Level 20 (20 ranks/+20 BAB) +5 bonusThis may be getting too rules laden though.
This idea is very good, but it is a bit rules-laden. I'm not sure how to streamline it though. It also maintains full backwards compatibility with 3.5