My complaint about cleave is that it became very useful at low levels, when you have only one attack, and less and less useful at higher levels, when you get multiple attacks, haste effects, and the like. And it's not interesting for dual weapon fighters.
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My complaint about cleave is that it became very useful at low levels, when you have only one attack, and less and less useful at higher levels, when you get multiple attacks, haste effects, and the like. And it's not interesting for dual weapon fighters.
I argued that as well. Our (at the time) 7th level paladin turned down the feat in favor of Overhand Chop for that very reason.
I believe that Cleave would be somewhat fixed if using it was a standard action, not a full-round action.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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My complaint about cleave is that it became very useful at low levels, when you have only one attack, and less and less useful at higher levels, when you get multiple attacks, haste effects, and the like. And it's not interesting for dual weapon fighters.
I argued that as well. Our (at the time) 7th level paladin turned down the feat in favor of Overhand Chop for that very reason.
I believe that Cleave would be somewhat fixed if using it was a standard action, not a full-round action.
AND if you could target any enemy in reach...
Cleave also can't be done at the end of a charge ether.
I think the entire power attack tree is now useless, with excetption of improved pull rush and overrun, but they got nerfed too!
Jason do you just hate these feats???
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Cleave also can't be done at the end of a charge ether.
I think the entire power attack tree is now useless, with excetption of improved pull rush and overrun, but they got nerfed too!
Jason do you just hate these feats???
Here's a thought. The barbarian ability Animal Fury is a swift action, and on Wednesday, our cleric/barbarian charged, attacked with his axe, and then as a swift action, used his Animal Fury as a bite.
Maybe Cleave should be a swift action, then? And make it require the character to have made either a standard or full-action attack during the round to use it ...
Cleave also can't be done at the end of a charge ether.
I think the entire power attack tree is now useless, with excetption of improved pull rush and overrun, but they got nerfed too!
Jason do you just hate these feats???
Here's a thought. The barbarian ability Animal Fury is a swift action, and on Wednesday, our cleric/barbarian charged, attacked with his axe, and then as a swift action, used his Animal Fury as a bite.
Maybe Cleave should be a swift action, then? And make it require the character to have made either a standard or full-action attack during the round to use it ...
By doing this, you make the feat extremely powerful, it's by far better than 3.5 or PRPG.
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By doing this, you make the feat extremely powerful, it's by far better than 3.5 or PRPG.
Perhaps.
For spending a feat, if you can line up two adjacent foes, you can have an extra attack. If you wanted to make the secondary Cleave attack -5 to hit, that'd be okay, or set it up to be a martial version of Rapid Shot, where all attacks are -2, that would be okay too.
With a little tweaking, it could still be a viable feat. In it's current incarnation, it's not worth taking.
The 3.5 cleave was "activated" whenever you killed an opponent. Which meant cleave was really only good for clearing mooks.
I applaud the desire to make it more accessible, but the PF version becomes worth much less once you gain iterative attacks (after level 5 or so)
Perhaps we could put it back to the 3.5 version, but have it activate on a critical or the killing blow:
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Cleave [General]
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack.
Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it) or you confirm a critical hit, you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature or scored the critical hit. You can use this ability once per round.
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Greater Cleave would be the same but allow for more than one attack.
As is, cleave and great cleave look like some lesser version of whirlwind attack, but based on power attack instead of combat expertise.
I have been considering, for a while now, allowing this feat to be used as a standard action, but that does seem very good for low level melee characters.
You could style it after Rapid Shot with -2 to all attacks. It would really become whirlwind attack at that point though.
EDIT: Also remember it currently has a restriction of an adjacent opponent to the original target, which makes it very hard to activate. I think that restriction alone is enough to limit it's usefulness. If it did become a standard action, it could then be activated on a Charge attack, which would extend it's viability for higher level characters.
I have been considering, for a while now, allowing this feat to be used as a standard action, but that does seem very good for low level melee characters.
I am still thinking about it though...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Well you could make it improved at later levels like back swing.
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I have been considering, for a while now, allowing this feat to be used as a standard action, but that does seem very good for low level melee characters.
I am still thinking about it though...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I think it's fair. It's got a prereq feat, a caveat that the two targets have to be adjacent, charging still carries with it the caveat that you have to charge to the first threatened square in the straight line - making lining up the two targets even more of a challenge.
Making it a standard action capable of being used with a charge still prevents it from being combined with alot of other combat feats that require a standard action. (as opposed to making it a swift action which would be able to be used in conjunction with a lot of full-action and standard action combat feat abilities.)
Robert
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Yup I was adding a new but wanted to comment on both Power attack and Cleave. So here's what I wrote about Cleave.
We started a Beta Playtest just after GenCon
We continue to comment on the amount of depowering Fighter Feats that has gone on in the Pathfinder rules that makes the fighter less attractive a class to play than a wizard (My new character after the fighter bit it in Hangmans Noose).
Cleave is a full round action and now is more situational than before. The secondary must be adjacent to the primary. This feat also becomes useless at higher levels when hasted I can get the same effect and choose an opponent I can reach then make follow ups with iterative, this benefit is gained upon reaching 6th level making the window of usefulness a tiny window.
Great Cleave is so conditionally limited (I must be surrounded by my opponents or there must be 3 lined up together) that there is no real point taking it making having cleave at all.
The old cleave may not have been all that useful, but at the least it was more useful the higher levels you got.
Do we know what the trouble with 3.5 Cleave was, anyways?
3.5 Cleave is actually very useful. Even at high levels, foes are going to drop, and then you'd get a free attack beyond your iterative+Haste limit.
It was Great Cleave that wasn't very useful in 3.5.
-Matt
Do we know what the trouble with 3.5 Cleave was, anyways?
3.5 Cleave is actually very useful. Even at high levels, foes are going to drop, and then you'd get a free attack beyond your iterative+Haste limit.
It was Great Cleave that wasn't very useful in 3.5.
-Matt
Agreed