|
Because of discussion in the thread " Scribing costs - putting wizards in the poor house" I came up with this:
Most of those opposed to my initial suggestion seem to at least acknowledgment (albeit tacitly) that wizards need to know more spells than they get at each level the moment. (Not cast per day, know)
So this got me to thinking that maybe the very simplest thing is to just have the wizard get 3 spells known per level, rather than 2.
This changes the rules less than other suggestions and a budding wizard doesn't rely absolutely on the vagaries of DMs - whether they choose to provide wizardly schools and mentors or not. It still restricts knowing vast numbers of spells but provides some of the flexibility (with preparation) that wizards are supposed to have.
I would probably say.. no.
Having played a wizard, I can say 2 is enough.
The costs of scribing, assuming you don't have a blessed book, are really the only *mandatory* costs the wizard has, aside from that ole +int item and maybe a +con item.. Everything else is just gravy. Warrior types have to spend upwards of 300k on armor and weapons, with rogues having to spend the same if not more (for two weapons and armor), clerics are in the same boat with the armor thing.
Why should wizards be excluded from having to pay for gear? It's a different type of gear- to be sure- but every bit as necessary to the class as the fighter's sword is to him.
-S
|
|
I would probably say.. no.
Having played a wizard, I can say 2 is enough.
The costs of scribing, assuming you don't have a blessed book, are really the only *mandatory* costs the wizard has, aside from that ole +int item and maybe a +con item.. Everything else is just gravy. Warrior types have to spend upwards of 300k on armor and weapons, with rogues having to spend the same if not more (for two weapons and armor), clerics are in the same boat with the armor thing.
Why should wizards be excluded from having to pay for gear? It's a different type of gear- to be sure- but every bit as necessary to the class as the fighter's sword is to him.
-S
That's a gross exaggeration of how much a fighter has to spend on weapons and armor, even at 20th level, and a wizard has to spend on (the more expensive)protective items as well, not just the warrior types.
Fine, are we going to expect the fighter to pay for training in all their extra feats and class abilities.
How about the cleric that gets their full list of spells as soon as they hit a level.
I'm just trying to have something in the rules that replicates what most groups seem to do with house rules or suggested rules, already - defray some of the costs for acquiring new spells.
The mandatory cost does NOT only include scribing into the book, it also includes buying the scroll (which ramps up in price considerably).
The mandatory cost does NOT only include scribing into the book, it also includes buying the scroll (which ramps up in price considerably).
OR you could just pay 50 gp per spell level to look at someone else's books...
I've been playing a wizard and getting new spells has been both cheap and easy for me (compared to the fighter upgrading his equipment I haven't spent much at all).
What's really helping is finding the spellbooks of wizards we defeat, and Blessed Book.
If you don't find spellbooks... those weren't wizards. If those were, wizards there are books somewhere near by.
Besides give up 2 feats and you can have most any piece of magic equipment you want available to you for half price: Craft magic arms & armor, craft wondrous object.
Even in the most extreme case of getting every spell in Core with looking at someone else's spellbook comes out to just at 221,000 gp, IF you don't just buy two blessed books (or make them).
BTW if your DM isn't letting you look at other people's spellbooks (or including some in the treasure) he should be, and the problem isn't the class design, it's the DM.
Considering the number of ways wizards have to make stuff cheaper I still don't see why everyone wants to give the wizard more stuff.
*******************************************************
How about instead of crying about paying for spells to have unlimited versitility playing a sorcerer?
Then you get your spells known and don't have to pay for them.
|
|
IF you don't just buy two blessed books (or make them).
Only available to be made after 7th level, meaning you're still up a creek until then.
The mandatory cost does NOT only include scribing into the book, it also includes buying the scroll (which ramps up in price considerably).
OR you could just pay 50 gp per spell level to look at someone else's books...
How about instead of crying about paying for spells to have unlimited versitility playing a sorcerer?Then you get your spells known and don't have to pay for them.
(How about we keep the snide comments to a minimum. We're all trying to make this a better game - We are going to disagree about what does that. Taking cheap shots at people just makes them reject any reasonable points you may have made.)
You're at the mercy of the DM taking a suggestion (copying from another's spellbook) - as my years of play experience have shown.
I want the wizard to have the versatility that it is supposed to have and apparently does have in the games you play in. My suggestions have been trying to find a way to make it part of the rules, rather than about your DM taking a suggestion.
If the copying from others' spellbooks thing is the answer, make it a part of the rules that the DM has to make a choice to reject, rather than a suggestion the DM must choose to take.
Without it, the only avenue available IS to buy scrolls and use them to copy into the book, which nearly triples the cost you have quoted, as I showed with your calculations in another thread.
I'll say again that my problem is not and has never been paying for extra spells, which would be ludicrous and I can only guess that this is why you keep trying to make out that that is what I am trying to do.
Admittedly, this was not the best of my suggestions.
I think that better than this one, would be the geometric progression of copying costs suggested, and best would be simply making the availability of spellbooks to 'rent to copy' a rule, rather than a suggestion.
Even with 2 spells per level and paying full price for scrolls the wizard is just fine power wise. There is a small issue until you get about 3-4th level and can afford to expand your spellbook but the classes at will powers have given the wizard a lot more power at low levels.
Even at the full cost of a scroll the cost of equipping a wizard with a spellbook is way below the cost to keep a fighter equipped with the 2-3 magic weapons he needs to be effective.
Yep.
And a naked wizard, with just his spell book and a pouch, is still more powerful than the fully decked out fighter. He'll Still be able to fly, turn invisible, and create havok while the fighter scratches his nose and wonders what's going on.
I HAVE a wizard. I love the little bugger. And I pay for his spells. And his items.
Just like the fighters pay for their swords (yes, plural) and armor. And try to find trinkets that let them do, sometimes, what the wizard gets to pay a few measly coin to do /forever/.
I love my mages, but they do Not need this buff.
wac, that was my minimum: I only made one snide comment in this thread. It's what the second or third thread on this issue? After hashing over the same stuff twice I get tired about eating the left overs. However I am sorry I hurt your feelings. That was not my main goal or intent with the comment. I was merely trying to point out that the sorcerer is much more limited and still makes due. The wizard gets everything and then some without really even trying. I don't see why he should get this "one more thing."
As my son's book says, "If you give a mouse a cookie..."
Back on point.
I still see no problem with the wizard paying for his ultimate cosmic power(TM). Yes even at the worse he pays for a couple of scrolls... then he can use the spell every day if he is so inclined... or he can make another scroll, or several dozen if he wants, it's not like it costs him a feat or EXP he gets the ability for free at first level and the EXP costs are all gone.
About looking in another wizard's spellbook:
Again it's not really a suggestion anymore than giving magical loot is a suggestion. The book offers it, says it should be balanced out in such and such way, and that a wizard should be able to access another wizard's spellbook for a rather nominal fee of a measely 50 gp per spell level.
The costs of playing a fighter?
If he wants to be 'effective' + 5 heavy fort armor is 100,000 gp + the cost of the armor and any special materials in it.
The cost of a +5 weapon with +5 enhancement stuff on it is 200,000 gp.
That's only 300,000 gp if the fighter isn't doing any two weapon fighting or using a shield, or wanting a second weapon... maybe a bow?
Even if the fighter does get just 1 melee weapon, 1 ranged weapon, armor and a shield he's looking at about 200,900 gp (plus the cost of the weapons and armor themselves) if he only gets everything at a plain vanilla + 5 with no special effects, powers or materials.
And if you are going to tell me that a fighter at level 20 doesn't need magical equipment I'll point out the wizard doesn't need spells, he can fight with his dagger or staff.
|
Even with 2 spells per level and paying full price for scrolls the wizard is just fine power wise. There is a small issue until you get about 3-4th level and can afford to expand your spellbook but the classes at will powers have given the wizard a lot more power at low levels.
Even at the full cost of a scroll the cost of equipping a wizard with a spellbook is way below the cost to keep a fighter equipped with the 2-3 magic weapons he needs to be effective.
You are right, but have taken into account that a Wizard has to keep up the cost for spell components. Just one example: Every PC in the game asks his group Wizard to identify this or that Item....The Spell Component for one Identify is a pearl with at least 100GP. Other spells also are far above the 1GP Price (which can be ignored with the correct feat).
All in all, I myself don't see a reason why one makes this cost-thing a subject. I have been playing AD&D for a couple of decades, and never has the cost of Spellbooks or minor Components been an issue. (Except from 50GP upwards, and spells with that price don't come a dome a dozen, and when they do the whole group usually chucks in)
Well, the lack of spellbooks doesn't appear to have been a problem for anyone else. Looks like I have just been extrordinarily unlucky.
At character creation, did your DM *strongly suggested* you to make a sorcerer instead of a wizard? Did he roll his eyes after you insisted to be the book worm? Has he yet sent hordes of goblin to rob you of your precious?
In the end, any class is dependant on the DM's clemency, be it the impossibility to find magic items or swords, wealth in general. But the wizard has the worst of it I do believe. Almost everything comes down to DM approval. 50gp per spell level to copy from a spell book? "Oh sorry, Toto doesn't have the spell you're looking for".
Worst case scenario, 2 spells per level added to your spellbook + a couple of researched spells, you can survive. But it sucks. Talk to your DM.
Speaking of spell components and focuses (I'm quoting myself here):
Animate Dead = 25gp per HD
Arcane Lock = 25gp
Circle of Death = 500gp
Continual Flame = 50gp
False Vision = 250gp
Fire Trap = 25gp
Legend Lore = 250gp
Limited Wish = 1,500gp
Nondetection = 50gp
Programmed Image = 25gp
Project Image = 5gp
Protection from Spells = 500gp
Refuge = 1,500gp
Stoneskin = 250gp
Teleport Circle = 1,000gp
Temporal Stasis = 5,000gp
True Seeing = 250gp
Undeath to Death = 500gp
Wish = 25,000gp
Total component costs for all spells in one day = 36,080gp
But here's the thing, as you use up material components, the DM has to let you have them back, as they affect your wealth per level. If you lose all of the components, then you are behind WBL and therefore behind everyone else. If he doesn't well, only three of those spells see regular use: Nondetection, Stoneskin, and True Seeing.
That total is based off the complete list in the Pathfinder Beta ... and if you check the Beta, you'll see that there is no expensive component to Identify anymore.
People I would like to point out to read that beta carefully! Several things are drastically changed in it, material components are included in that list!
