RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Hey folks, what's you're call:
A player came into my PFS game playing a 1st level sorcerer, his third PFS adventure with the character.
About an hour into the game, he mentioned how his sorcerer bloodline was helping him.
"Wait a second. Sorcerers don't have bloodlines in 3.5. What are you playing?"
Sure enough, his character was designed under the Beta Pathfinder rules.
Now, I was at the session where he started, and the DM explicitly explained to another player that her character was designed under the Pathfinder rules, and that she'd have to convert back.
So, this guy should have known that he was playing an illegal character. He is a little ditzy, however.
This was a convention game, and there were three other people at my table: this fellow's partner, and two brand new players.
What should I have done?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I wouldn't call that cheating. I would say the person had just skimmed the rules, and therefore remained confused (as many people are talked to are) about PFS not using PFRPG (yet). And just wasn't paying attention to the DM talking to the other player.
I would have let them finish the round, but directed them to fix their PC as soon as possible. And not let them use any new abilities.
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Probably not cheating, per se, just thick. :)
I can see how people would assume they'd be playtesting the Beta rules, in a tournament named after (and sponsored by?) the publishers of those same rules.
Also, I'd consider whether any harm was done, or advantage gained?
Since the first DM seems on the ball, enough to catch the other player, and you were on the ball, that only leaves the second DM who may have missed it. Do you know the second DM, or how to contact him?
If he can't recall any instance of it coming up, it doesn't sound like he got any benefit.
Therefore, let him keep the xp, faction points, and loot, but make sure the stats are legal before next game. And mark his Chronicle to that effect, that he's had his 'free strike', and the next DM can be aware.
Are we talking a really obvious power, like growing claws, or was it an invisible bonus?
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Since it was the Player's 3rd session with the character, it sounds like he might have still been level 1. If so, you could perform an at-the-table rollback: knock off 2 HP, kibosh the bloodline benefits, drop Eschew Materials, and have them adjust their Cantrips. Skills probably wouldn't change much, or you could adjudicate them on the fly as the checks came up.
-Skeld
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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My sincere thanks for your comments. I find them very helpful.
Are we talking a really obvious power, like growing claws, or was it an invisible bonus?
He had the Dragon bloodline, but was quiet about the claws. Mostly he was using the Perception-is-a-class-skill-and-so-gets-an-extra-+3-bonus ability.
It affected some things. He had a +2 to Charisma (chosen as his half-elf bonus stat), he had spent many more skill points than he would have been entitled to under 3.5, and he'd gotten used to having Detect Magic going as an at will concentration effect ("any time I'm not fighting").
He was a little whiny about Percaption (he'd already made a Listen check, at full skill points, so I ruled he'd spent his skill points in Listen rather than Spot.)
Mostly, he was just flustered for the rest of the session. He once commented, "I don't know what my Sense Motive bonus is. I don't where I've spent my skill points!"
For the record, I did allow him to keep playing, .
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It affected some things. He had a +2 to Charisma (chosen as his half-elf bonus stat), he had spent many more skill points than he would have been entitled to under 3.5, and he'd gotten used to having Detect Magic going as an at will concentration effect ("any time I'm not fighting").
Point taken. I'm thinking of how to keep the player in the game, keep his character, and correct him in such a way as not to not turn into an public smack-down.
You could also just make some corrections to his sheet and let him play from there with the changes you've made to his stats.
Just some thoughts.
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I've posted elsewhere about PFS 3.5 vs Beta rules. I've had several players who enjoy the Beta lament that Paizo chose not to run PFS "playtest" Season 0 with Pathfinder RPG "playtest" Beta rules. I've seen player confusion between the different rulesets, particularly players who alternate between the APs and PFS. One player claimed he wouldn't play PFS until the Pathfinder RPG rules kicked in next August, since he enjoys the Beta rules more. I also feel a bit left-out of the playtest forums, because I've supported PFS by running playtests and convention sessions at the expense of my regular AP groups.
I think running PFS with the Beta rules would have been a much better opportunity to playtest the rules at game days and conventions with the general public more so than your regular group of players, because you would be observing a wider range of character builds. Additionally, Paizo could have tailored some PFS adventures to test specific rules they were seeking feedback on.
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I think running PFS with the Beta rules would have been a much better opportunity to playtest the rules at game days and conventions with the general public more so than your regular group of players, because you would be observing a wider range of character builds. Additionally, Paizo could have tailored some PFS adventures to test specific rules they were seeking feedback on.
But then, when Jason asks for people to try out the new paladin rules he came up with, or the new rage powers system, or the animal companion/mount rules, do you adopt those rules, or keep with whats in the printed Beta?
Doubtless there would be some players that like these new rules as well, and would be disappointed if the PFS stayed with the "straight" Beta.
I guess, the way I see it, there is no other way to have launched the PFS this year than to do it as a 3.5 system until the PFRPG is actually ready and not in its playtesting phase.
I'm not saying its not confusing to some players, but I don't see an alternative that would have worked, from my point of view.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Really? Anyone can just ban someone from all future PFS play? I can see you not allowing him at your table or your events, or turning him in to PFS-master Frost, but I don't think any DM can just ban someone.
Hi, y8mh.
I'm reading The Three Commandments section of the Pathfinder Society rules:
"If you, as a Pathfinder Society Organized Play member, are caught cheating, you will be booted from the campaign forever."
The way I understand that commandment, if I'd determined that the player was cheating, and I'd caught him, he would not be allowed to play, that character or any other, ever again.
I've asked, in other threads, if there's any appeals process. I haven't heard back, but I'm assuming there must be.
I don't believe I have the option to disallow anyone from joining my table or my events. (At least, I can't find anything in the Guide that allows me to pick and choose my players. If there's something in there I haven't noticed, I'd be grateful if you could point that out.)
Director of Brand Strategy
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Remember that there are two playtests going on now: The Pathfinder RPG rules and the Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign. One is designed to fine-tune a rules system for play in all types of situations, and the other's goal is to test a specific system of organizing and running a shared-world campaign. Keeping the two separate from one another is vital to finding and fixing the flaws in each. Were problems inherent in the beta rules present in the PFS playtest, it would only muddy up the discussion of what works for the organized play system and the launch of Season 1 could contain things which would have otherwise been caught had people playing been using a rules system they were familiar with and been ableto focus on finding the hitches in the organization as opposed to the rules. In theory, a well-run organized play campaign can function under any rules set, but if there's a problem with how the campaign is managed, changing a few rules for some of the classes involved isn't going to fix that. I think that running PFS as straight 3.5 was the right choice for season 0.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I'm reading The Three Commandments section of the Pathfinder Society rules:
"If you, as a Pathfinder Society Organized Play member, are caught cheating, you will be booted from the campaign forever."
I'm not debating the phrasing in the rules, but when it comes down to it, you're just a GM at one table/convention. There's not really anything you can do to prevent that person from playing somewhere else. All that anyone can do is inform Josh and others running the Society that the player had appeared to be cheating. Only someone on the inside can really block that player for future events. I know that if I caught someone cheating I couldn't do any more than inform those higher up the chain of command. It's simply not in a GM's power to make such judgments and execute punishments.
Aww shut up, you anal retentive git!
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I think you MUST ban him. Eternally. Or the law gets no respect.
Ask yourself this: what would Judge Dredd do?
Fifteen years in the academy,
He was like no cadet they'd ever seen.
A man so hard, his veins bleed ice,
And when he speaks he never says if twice.
They call him Judge, his last name is Dredd,
So break the law, and you wind up dead.
Truth and justice are what he's fighting for,
Judge Dredd the man, he is the law.
DROKK IT!
With gun and bike he rules the streets,
And every perp he meets will taste defeat.
Not even Death can overcome his might,
Cause Dredd and Anderson, they won the fight.
When the Sov's started the Apocalypse war,
Mega-City was bombed to the floor.
Dredd resisted, and the judges fought back,
Crushed the Sov's with their counter-attack.
DROKK IT!
Respect the badge - he earned it with his blood.
Fear the gun - your sentence may be death because...
I AM THE LAW!
And you won't f~@# around no more - I AM THE LAW!
I judge the rich, I judge the poor - I AM THE LAW!
Commit a crime I'll lock the door - I AM THE LAW!
Because in Mega-City... I AM THE LAW!
In the cursed earth where mutants dwell,
There is no law, just a living hell.
Anarchy and chaos as the blood runs red,
But this would change if it was up to Dredd.
The book of law is the bible to him,
And any crime committed is a sin.
He keeps the peace with his law-giver,
Judge, jury, and executioner.
DROKK IT!
Respect the badge - he earned it with his blood.
Fear the gun - your sentence may be death because...
I AM THE LAW!
And you won't f@!% around no more - I AM THE LAW!
I judge the rich, I judge the poor - I AM THE LAW!
Commit a crime I'll lock the door - I AM THE LAW!
Because in Mega-City... I AM THE LAW!
CRIME - The ultimate sin,
Your iso-Cube is waiting when he brings you in.
LAW - It's what he stands for,
Crime's his only enemy and he's going to war!
CRIME - The ultimate sin,
Your iso-Cube is waiting when he brings you in.
LAW - It's what he stands for,
Crime's his only enemy and he's going to war!
Respect the badge - he earned it with his blood.
Fear the gun - your sentence may be death because...
I AM THE LAW!
And you won't f&+~ around no more - I AM THE LAW!
I judge the rich, I judge the poor - I AM THE LAW!
Commit a crime I'll lock the door - I AM THE LAW!
Because in Mega-City... I AM THE LAW!
I AM THE LAW!
And you won't f*!$ around no more - I AM THE LAW!
I judge the rich, I judge the poor - I AM THE LAW!
Commit a crime I'll lock the door - I AM THE LAW!
Because in Mega-City... I AM THE LAW!
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I'm not debating the phrasing in the rules, but when it comes down to it, you're just a GM at one table/convention. There's not really anything you can do to prevent that person from playing somewhere else. ... Only someone on the inside can really block that player for future events. I know that if I caught someone cheating I couldn't do any more than inform those higher up the chain of command. It's simply not in a GM's power to make such judgments and execute punishments.
Oh, sure. In all seriousness, perpetual banishment is out of proportion to the nature of this incident. I hope I'm not giving anyone the impression that it's something I would try to invoke.
But two things:
1) I doubt there's much that Josh could do, either. There are a lot of events all around, and there isn't a "black list" for problem players. All that would happen, presumably, is that --if such a player were the only player in her faction at the table,whose results were reported, Josh could discount any faction points she would have earned. And, maybe, catch her at larger conventions.
2) It has to be within the table GM's power to ban someone who is obviously cheating (miscalling dice, claiming equipment his character never owned) from continuing to play at a local convention. If the decision needs to come from Pathfinder Society Central Command, the offender could go from session to session.
By the way, without the illegal PC, there'd have been only three characters in the party. That's not a legal table. What happens then? (I'm sure the RPGA has dealt with things like this. What happened under those auspices?)
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This is why I was so confused when PFS was announced and that it wold use the old outdated rules. The reason being they didn't want people using rules that were not complete and they would have to change anyway. Well, everyone has to change anyway.
Their call for PFS using 3.x which I still think is kind of backwards. I won't even start PFS until they use PRPG rules.
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This is why I was so confused when PFS was announced and that it wold use the old outdated rules. The reason being they didn't want people using rules that were not complete and they would have to change anyway.
It wasn't because of the need to change, it was the issues of if they were using the pathfinder rules, then they would need to delve into each thing that didn't work, and look at if it was broken because of the PFS rules or the PFRPG rules. Getting things solved is hard enough without adding extra steps when starting from scratch.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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It wasn't because of the need to change, it was the issues of if they were using the pathfinder rules, then they would need to delve into each thing that didn't work, and look at if it was broken because of the PFS rules or the PFRPG rules. Getting things solved is hard enough without adding extra steps when starting from scratch.This is why I was so confused when PFS was announced and that it wold use the old outdated rules. The reason being they didn't want people using rules that were not complete and they would have to change anyway.
Exactly. Isolating the variables is key to any process like this, and a roleplaying game is so volatile anyway that increasing the variables doesn't help anyone.
And if the reason were to prevent too many changes, then that too was effective. As it stands, paladins and barbarians have both had redesigns/alterations since the Beta came out, and if I were playing either class I'd rather convert them once in August 09 than each and every time the class changed along the way. Additionally, if a class were too over/under-powered in the beta, it would allow some PCs an unfair advantage/disadvantage which is never good in a campaign which hinges on as much balance as possible.
1. There's an appeal process--it's me. I'd like that player's PFS # so I can email them a reminder to be sure to rebuild his/her character in the correct rules set. This isn't cheating, necessarily.
2. I make no apologies for choosing 3.5 for season 0. Everyone will rebuild their character once--next summer when we switch to PRPG. If I'd chosen the beta rules everyone would need to rebuild their character every single time we updated the beta rules and my designers would all have to be experts on a rules system that I'm not even yet an expert on. 3.5 was the only choice for season 0.
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If I'd chosen the beta rules everyone would need to rebuild their character every single time we updated the beta rules and my designers would all have to be experts on a rules system that I'm not even yet an expert on. 3.5 was the only choice for season 0.
Plus, you may have found you had fewer GMs willing and / or capable to run the PFS scenarios. I for example am willing to run Season Zero as I know D&D3.5 - however I am not reading the Beta rules as I am not bothered about playtesting, and don't want to read a book, only to have to read the final version in less than a year.
Also many players may be willing to play in a 3.5 living game, but perhaps aren't even aware of the PF Beta and / or willing to buy a hardcopy.
So I agree that using 3.5 was the right decision - the organised play needs to be a success in its first year - if it flopped due to not having enough players or GMs then we may not get to see Season 1 at all!
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1. There's an appeal process--it's me. I'd like that player's PFS # so I can email them a reminder to be sure to rebuild his/her character in the correct rules set. This isn't cheating, necessarily.
2. I make no apologies for choosing 3.5 for season 0. Everyone will rebuild their character once--next summer when we switch to PRPG. If I'd chosen the beta rules everyone would need to rebuild their character every single time we updated the beta rules and my designers would all have to be experts on a rules system that I'm not even yet an expert on. 3.5 was the only choice for season 0.
No, I don't want you to apologize at all... you have your reasons. That is fine. I suppose that came off more critical than I intended.
So, ummmmm there are to be updates to Beta then???? I've seen Prestige Classes, but that sounds more like there will be rules updates as well...
What ya mean you aren't an expert on the PRPG rules yet... slacker! :)
OK truth be said, I really don't imagine anyone is an expert on the 3.x rules. There are always rules we don't know or interpret wrong, or just never even saw, or just plain forgot. We all know most of the rules well enough to play or to write or publish, but does anyone really know everything well enough to be an expert?
Obviously I don't and I am not afraid to say so :)
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So, ummmmm there are to be updates to Beta then???? I've seen Prestige Classes, but that sounds more like there will be rules updates as well...
They said there would most likely be downloads with corrected rules at some point a few weeks/month after that part of testing was done with corrections based on testing
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Director of Brand Strategy
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They said there would most likely be downloads with corrected rules at some point a few weeks/month after that part of testing was done with corrections based on testing
So, ummmmm there are to be updates to Beta then???? I've seen Prestige Classes, but that sounds more like there will be rules updates as well...
We've already seen new Paladins and revisions to the rage rules, though they are currently just on the messageboards.
BUUUURRRRN HIM!
BUUUUUUURRRRRRRN the heretic!
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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We've already seen new Paladins and revisions to the rage rules, though they are currently just on the messageboards.They said there would most likely be downloads with corrected rules at some point a few weeks/month after that part of testing was done with corrections based on testing
So, ummmmm there are to be updates to Beta then???? I've seen Prestige Classes, but that sounds more like there will be rules updates as well...
There's also a new version of animal companions.
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On another note, depending on who the offender in question was, I may know him, If it's who I think it may be. If this is the case he plays in my home 3.5 game and I find myself suspecting him of cheating an awful lot. He also tends to be disruptive and likes to find loopholes in the rules to exploit things for maximum cheese (as he calls it). Now this person and the one I'm thinking of may not be the same, but if it is, I'm pretty sure he was well aware of what he was doing. It's always seemed to be his policy in our home game to wait until I catch him on something.
My 2 cents, and it may be someone else.
Holy thread necromancy batman.
Holy thread necromancy batman.
Threeeeeads .... threeeeeaaaaaaadssssss
