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Quicken Spell takes a slot 4 levels higher than the regular spell. The Quicken Metamagic Rods are the most expensive metamagic rods.
My group tends to not bother with metamagic all that often, but I really just don't see why a 'quickened 1st level spell' is really as good as say, Baleful Polymorph. Even if it IS a swift action.
Yes,
the Quicken spell feat has a lot of potential for spells casters.
For example if a high level wizard would caster delayed blast fireball……then cast a quicken wall of force….9th modified. The target would be trapped. And I would not even let them get a save for half damage. All abilities like evasion and improved evasion would also not work sense there would be no where to escape too, inside the bubble of force sense all of the inside would be filled with the fireball.
I think the trick is to use several means to lower the cost of Quicken to make it much more user friendly.
Most if not all said ways are splatbook rather than core.
(at least- I don't think there are any core ways..)
-S
they have two differnet forgotten realms prestage class that you gain the ability improved metamagic....which lower all metamagic level adjustments by 1 to no less then 1......and in the epic level hand book you can get this as an epic feat also.....and there is also a feat called.....extra quicken spell.....which lets you cast two swift spells per round.
you can easly see the problem if you drop the level adjustment to just 2 and your players start after these feats.....get like 3 extra quicken spells...which it says you can get more then once....and just one improved metamagic feat or ability and with just a adjustmet of only +2 for quicken a high level caster could use up all his spells for the days in like 6 rounds.
hahahhahahahah.........the power............
Quicken Spell is incredibly important, because a spellcaster cannot possibly go through all his spells in one fight, so Quicken is what lets him break the 1 spell per round barrier.
It's like taking extra turns. Huge.
-Matt
Quicken Spell takes a slot 4 levels higher than the regular spell. The Quicken Metamagic Rods are the most expensive metamagic rods.
My group tends to not bother with metamagic all that often, but I really just don't see why a 'quickened 1st level spell' is really as good as say, Baleful Polymorph. Even if it IS a swift action.
I find it amusing how some people feel a given effect is fine while others feel the same effect is broken. I know plenty of people pay the meta cost of quicken and are perfectly willing to pay for it. The fact that there is debate over whether it's worth while is a good indication that something is priced correctly.
In and of itself, a Quickened spell is not that powerful. However, the ability to cast two spells in a single round (or cast Quickened truestrike before making a normal attack) is a big deal. This was why haste was changed in 3.5 from the 3.0 version. Also, you need to consider the potential combinations of spells: cloudkill + Quickened grease is a nasty combination, for instance.
In my view, the true value of Quicken metamagic is hard to gauge because it depends on:
1. Your level and how many high level slots you have to burn; and
2. How frequently you have opportunities to recharge those slots.
For example, when you only have one or two 5th level slots, a Quickened spell offers little when compared to an actual 5th level spell. This is even more true if the spellcaster already has access to spells with a swift action casting time.
But at high level play when you find you have more mid to high level slots than you can ever actually use, Quicken almost becomes a "must have". The top tier caster who can't fire off two spells in a critical round falls behind.
It would be nice if the metamagic feats offered dividends a bit earlier in a character's progression, but I am not sure how to achieve that without radically re-jigging the whole concept.
There are, for example, house rules where it has been ruled that taking a metamagic feat grants you the ability to instead apply its effect once per day without level adjustment (I believe I first saw that in Dragon magazine).
Also, the first wave of splat books offered this effect with the "Sudden [Metamagic]" series of feats. A few of those feats struck me as overpowered though - particularly Sudden Maximize which had relatively modest prerequisites. I doubt we would want this idea as core. It's an option that might be added later for personal preference.
Standard disclaimer: This is how the game works. Change it or deal with it, but opinions never enter into the equation be they mine or anyone else's.
Quicken is one of the best feats in the entire game. Yes, even compared to all the other books out there. Actions are always your most important resource, and it doubles your action count. This is using the Action Economy to your advantage, therefore you win. It raises the spell level, but metamagic rods or other means of reducing or eliminating that cost exist. And even with it, that's why you use it for a support effect like Quickened Enervation + your favorite instant kill.
Sudden Maximize though... eh. Worst thing you can do with it is cast Summon Monster whatever as a dedicated Conjurer and use it to pick 5 creatures from the Summon Monster whatever minus two list once a day. Which is nice, but still inferior to Gate and a number of non summoning tactics.
I find it amusing how some people feel a given effect is fine while others feel the same effect is broken.
On a related note, it's really strange how every discussion about D&D seems to make very little progress, simply because every player seems to have a totally different reference point.
For example: If Player A uses 25-point-buy to build his PC, and Player B uses the "4d6, reroll 1s, drop lowest, repeat seven times, drop lowest set, arranged as desired" method, something as basic as, say, the Monk (who tends to work under inflated roll-up generation methods but not-so-much under point-buy), will appear entirely differently to both players.
Another example: Wizards. If Player A's experience with the Wizard is under a DM who controls crafting downtime, scribing downtime, and spell-learning downtime, and Player B's experience is under a DM who does not limit downtime, the Wizard will seem very different to both players.
So you see, if every player has a different reference point, then every discussion will consist of players coming from different points of view, thus making it incredibly tough to find any absolutes in the sea of relatives.
-Matt
Yes,
the Quicken spell feat has a lot of potential for spells casters.For example if a high level wizard would caster delayed blast fireball……then cast a quicken wall of force….9th modified. The target would be trapped. And I would not even let them get a save for half damage. All abilities like evasion and improved evasion would also not work sense there would be no where to escape too, inside the bubble of force sense all of the inside would be filled with the fireball.
Here you're house ruling. Even a paralyzed target has a reflex save (but with a 0 dexterity, so -5). It was clearly stated in the FAQ.
And evasion will work too as long as you're not immobilized.This kind of debate exist since 1st edition, and good old EGG wanted to always allow a save, and this has always existed until at least 3.5 (don't know about 4th).
As for quicken spell, it's really powerful, having tried it much as a DM.
An enemy spellcaster who cast 2 spells per round at your group is really annoying. In my Freeport campaign, one of the big boss is a wight wizard 5/fighter 2/eldritch knight 5.
I use a quickened true strike, followed by a maximized shocking grasp with a power attack max (-9/+9) on his slam attack. Ended with a total +22 to hit and 1d4+15+30(electricity)+energy drain. And I can do it two rounds (90 damage +2d4+2 negative energy levels, more damage than his full HP, even at full health he will be at negative hp).
Their front line fighter will certainly be down in these two rounds.
And a lich wizard/cleric/true necromancer has made my players mad with these two spells per round.
And with 3.0, I tried a wizard who cast 3 spells per round (one with haste spell, one quickened, one normal), it was really overpowered.
When you don't have lot of slots it's really expensive, but when you want to unleash a lot of damage quickly, it's perfectly appropriate.
Quicken Spell takes a slot 4 levels higher than the regular spell. The Quicken Metamagic Rods are the most expensive metamagic rods.
My group tends to not bother with metamagic all that often, but I really just don't see why a 'quickened 1st level spell' is really as good as say, Baleful Polymorph. Even if it IS a swift action.
By the time you can afford to use it, it's great. So it's fairly useless for a level 9 wizard (say), but it's great for a level 15 wizard.
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Sudden Maximize though... eh. Worst thing you can do with it is cast Summon Monster whatever as a dedicated Conjurer and use it to pick 5 creatures from the Summon Monster whatever minus two list once a day. Which is nice, but still inferior to Gate and a number of non summoning tactics.
Sudden Maximize Energy Drain? Followed by your favorite Quickened SoD?
Another key thing to note with quicken is that you can start controlling two distinct areas of the battlefield at once. Even at 5th level spells, you have a quickened Color spray, stun a nearby enemy, then cast your normal spell without threat. Thinking of the possibilities, even at mid-levels, makes Quicken look very nice. The key is that at the point where you start to get quicken, your first and second level spells start to not really be worth your action, although there are some effects that are still useful if you could still use your big spells.
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The key is that at the point where you start to get quicken, your first and second level spells start to not really be worth your action, although there are some effects that are still useful if you could still use your big spells.
But they won't be using your 1st and 2nd level spell slots, they'll be using 5th and 6th, and I can not think of a time I'd rather cast a 1st level spell than use up a 5th level spell slots.
I get that it's one of the better ones, but I think +3 would be more suitable to its power level.
But they won't be using your 1st and 2nd level spell slots, they'll be using 5th and 6th, and I can not think of a time I'd rather cast a 1st level spell than use up a 5th level spell slots.
Eventually you'll have enough spell slots that you'll have plenty of 5th level spell slots to spare. Just not right away.
I'm playing a 13th level sorcerer and I love casting two spells per round. (I'm using a sorcerer variant that allows normal speed metamagic X times per day in exchange for my familiar.)
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Not sure if I'm reading it right, but in Beta, a generalist wizard even gets to use quicken without the spell slot penalty with one of their class abilities. Admittedly its limited, but this makes it very nice.
Metamagic wand of Quicken, even better.
I used a combo not long ago where I got to hold monster, then quicken hold monster again. Two biggest combatants held. Fight over (made my rogue friend very happy, was sneak attack heaven). Ahhh, good times.
Cheers
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There may be extra ways to make it better in other splat books, but the PFRPG isn't being designed to be balanced against every splat book out there. It's meant to be balanced against itself.
And it shouldn't cost me a 5th level slot to get Mage Armor up in an emergency.
It doesn't. It costs you the usual 1st-level slot. Feel free to spend your next turn replenishing your defences.
Unless of course, you want to do something else in the same round...If you're high enough level to have 5th-level slots, why do you need to get Mage Armour up in an emergency? It lasts half the day.
(OK; so you may just have been hit with a Dispel. If so, you've got worse things to worry about than +4AC...)
Not all spells are important enough to Quicken. What you look for is the ability to:
- set up an enemy for your next spell (Quick Hold Person on low-Will Rogue + Flame Strike ("Where's your Evasion now?),
- similar thing, but set them up for an ally, while you do what you really want (He's all yours!),
- similar, but knock them out of the fight, so you can run past them with no AoO and do what you really want (Sorry, can't stop!),
- give yourself a worthwhile defence (ie immunity or miss chance) while doing what you really want,
- evade a combat when things are badly screwed (Quick Invisibility then move through threatened squares to Dim. Door away with your unconscious ally),
- affect two enemies in different fire arcs (Tag Team, huh? That won't save you!),
- remove a detrimental condition (Quick Prot/Evil on Dominated ally, then carry on doing what you really want...),
- guarantee some ker-azy powerful, but inaccurate attack, via True Strike, etc
I know that this is a bit specific and possibly off-topic, but Divine Metamagic ups the ante in a big way for the metamagic feats. Okay, so you use an extra feat to get it (according to errata anyway) but with this you can potentially use quicken 1/day at first level. Throw in high charisma, extra turns and you're looking at lots of quickens at higher levels.
My cleric eventually had 20-odd turns, which equated to 4 sudden quickens of any spell for free every day. Reduce the cost of Quicken and the DM would have a fit as everything my character would do would be preceded by a quickened spell. I know it's different for clerics but still, that's pretty ott.
Ok, being more objective, I think if you reduced the Quicken feat to less than +4 levels you'd find every wizard using it. I would.
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I know that this is a bit specific and possibly off-topic, but Divine Metamagic ups the ante in a big way for the metamagic feats. Okay, so you use an extra feat to get it (according to errata anyway) but with this you can potentially use quicken 1/day at first level. Throw in high charisma, extra turns and you're looking at lots of quickens at higher levels.
And that's where it really gets mental, plus later, when the cleric is throwing around Quickened Heals, which, by rights, are 10th-level spells, and should only be available to epic-level demigods.
OK, so Divine Metamagic wasn't OGL, but it was in one of the first wave of class books, that many consider 'almost-core-and-necessary-to-make-their-class-good'.
But it's not just that feat, it's all methods of gaining metamagic effects without the expected level bump, like metamagic rods (which are core).
Should there should be a clause that says "You can add an effect to a spell without increasing the level of the slot, but only if the character were normally capable of casting that spell at its normal, higher, metamagic level."?
That would limit such tactics to being used on lower-level effects, so not unbalancing the expected power level.
Eg: a Cleric 9, with Still Spell and Divine Still Spell, could expend two Channels to cast any of his spells of 4th level or lower, in response to being grappled or entangled.
Eg: A Wizard 11, with a Maximise Rod, when confronted by a [Cold] creature, could activate a charge to Maximise a Fireball (all his 6th-level slots being filled with Disintegrates and Greater Dispels).
Or is that too harsh?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Well, I know that quickened spells for my abjurant cheesewho- er champion really changed how I played her.
1st level, quickened shield, or quickened Prot from Evil on the fighter. Often then readied an orb of force if I thought we were fighting a spell caster. (Make a DC 40 concentration check, hoser)
3rd level, quickened prot from arrows if need be.
5th level, spamming free dispel magics every round. Sure I ate spell slots like candy, but it was worth it for the disruption.
And that's just one school. +4 levels seems about right.
Sudden Maximize though... eh. Worst thing you can do with it is cast Summon Monster whatever as a dedicated Conjurer and use it to pick 5 creatures from the Summon Monster whatever minus two list once a day. Which is nice, but still inferior to Gate and a number of non summoning tactics.
Sudden Maximized Time Stop begs to disagree with you. So does Sudden Maximized Energy Drain. Seriously, 8 negative levels (with no save!) is hard to deal with no matter what you are.
But they won't be using your 1st and 2nd level spell slots, they'll be using 5th and 6th, and I can not think of a time I'd rather cast a 1st level spell than use up a 5th level spell slots.
Would you rather have two Baleful Polymorphs prepared or a single Baleful Polymorph and a Quickened Color Spray, when you know for a fact that you only have one round before someone gets killed?
It's all well and good to have lots of powerful spells prepared, but in most cases you'll never be able to cast them all. Combat will be over - one way or another - before you get enough turns to blow through all your 5th+ level spells, at least once you get to level 12 or so.
The lack of ability to use Quicken Metamagic (except through rods or the Arcane Bloodline) is the major reason why Sorcerers are inferior to Wizards. They can cast more spells per day, but fewer spells per round - and it's the second that matters when the fecal matter impacts the rotating blade.
It's even MORE important for NPCs, because chances are they'll only BE in one fight per day, and because they're almost always at a severe action disadvantage vs PCs. Your typical party is 4 or 5 PCs, and if they're fighting a high-level wizard typically it's just the wizard + whatever he summons. That means the PCs get 4-5 actions for every 1 action the NPC gets. Quicken is one of the few ways to even the odds for NPCs (along with summoning magic and Time Stop).