RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Now I see why James was griping about your Tactics Jason! That is a pretty cheap move. Cheap but effective!
I think I would be in agreement with lifting the damage caps of most direct damage spells as hit points have significantly increased. I'm also in the camp that thinks that even a 20th level Wizard shouldn't be able to one shot a level appropriate BBEG. That's no fun for the DM and I would think pretty anti-climatic for the players.
Having everyone get in some licks is a must for High Level Play. 3-5 rounds should be the average for any level of encounter. This would let people use Manuevers, set up flanks, use tactical feats, etc. and not just watch the Mage geek the Dragon with Shivering Touch (stupid spell).
Ok, this is getting pretty heavily derailed. I don't mind if the topic shifts away from my particular suggestions (even if I think their sheer awesomeness has put me in the position of the RPG messiah), but let's at least stick to how/what we can do to make nuke spells better.
IMO the blanket ruling on elemental energy spells bypassing SR is as far as this conversation needs to go. (Although I respect keeping it on-topic).
I'd like to see people throw their weight behind this suggestion or argue against it. It seems like the most easily implemented, effective and balanced solution.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Ok, this is getting pretty heavily derailed. I don't mind if the topic shifts away from my particular suggestions (even if I think their sheer awesomeness has put me in the position of the RPG messiah), but let's at least stick to how/what we can do to make nuke spells better.
Fair enough. Ceased and desisted. Back to our regularly scheduled programming.
What did you think of my notion of scaling the die sizes based on the level of spells?
Ok, this is getting pretty heavily derailed. I don't mind if the topic shifts away from my particular suggestions (even if I think their sheer awesomeness has put me in the position of the RPG messiah), but let's at least stick to how/what we can do to make nuke spells better.IMO the blanket ruling on elemental energy spells bypassing SR is as far as this conversation needs to go. (Although I respect keeping it on-topic).
I'd like to see people throw their weight behind this suggestion or argue against it. It seems like the most easily implemented, effective and balanced solution.
Yes. This is a good start. A little more would be nice, but taking energy spells down to save and energy resist would be great. Aside from that, I agree with the rationale that resisting fireball isn't really resisting magic, it's fire.
Ok, this is getting pretty heavily derailed. I don't mind if the topic shifts away from my particular suggestions (even if I think their sheer awesomeness has put me in the position of the RPG messiah), but let's at least stick to how/what we can do to make nuke spells better.Fair enough. Ceased and desisted. Back to our regularly scheduled programming.
What did you think of my notion of scaling the die sizes based on the level of spells?
Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a nazi. Anyway, I think what you posted before:
Here's a simple fix:
1. Damage dice caps are probably superfluous in a game where the hit points have escalated as much as they have. Remove them.
2. Higher-level spells should do bigger dice, rather than d6/level.
1st-2nd - d4
3rd-4th - d6
5th-6th - d8
7th-8th - d10
9th - d123. The above basic die progression holds true for basic AoE effects.
a. Touch spells that affect a single target should do one die size larger. (so 1st level shocking grasp should do d6 per level)
b. Ranged touch or targeted auto-hit spells that affect a single target (or have a single effect that must be split between targets, like magic missile) should do the same die size. (so 1st level magic missile should do 1d4 per level, 6th level disintegrate 1d8 per level)
This sounds pretty reasonable. A d8 chain lightning and d10 delayed blast have potential. I might bump it up slightly, and there are a couple of spells (like polar ray) that need a complete revamp, but, overall, this is a much better progression than the d6 everything currently does.
Standard disclaimer: This is how the game works. Change it or deal with it, but opinions never enter into the equation be they mine or anyone else's.
Start by removing SR from the equation. Then either reduce all blasting effects by one action category (so Fireball is a Swift action for example) or add your primary casting stat modifier divided by 2 as a bonus to every damage die with a maximum of spell level divided by 2, rounded down and minimum 1. In other words first and second level spells give +1 damage to each die as long as your prime stat is 14 or better. Third and fourth add +2 as long as your prime stat is 18 or better (and obviously only +1 if between 14-17, etc). Fifth and sixth add +3, but you need a stat of 22 to cap it. Seventh and eighth add +4 with a stat of 26. Lastly, ninth level spells cap at +5 with a 30 stat.
First one justifies the action cost by holding it to a considerably lower standard via acknowledging the vast inferiority of blasting. Second one attempts to correct the inferiority by making it keep up a little bit better with the quickly scaling enemy HP. The first is a simpler and smoother fix as it doesn't lead to complications like the casual blaster doing 20d6+100 with his low (for the level) Int 30 which tends to mess up humanoids aka the PCs fairly badly. Then by the time you're encountering blasts like that it's not like it's hard to counter Reflex energy attacks via one of any number of ways. The second fix also makes the spell level a bit more important than simple dice caps, giving Heighten a point (while higher DCs are normally good, blasting doesn't do enough with them to jump on that train).
Where do you stand on SR, Jason? Seems to me that the dividing line between conjurations and evocations, in terms of what's supposed to be causing the effect, isn't always that defensible.
EDIT: Effectively ninjaed by Dennis
If by Jason you mean Mr. B... I dunno.
If by Jason you mean me, I think this is an idea I could get behind, with the following caveat:
Attacks that inflict acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic damage bypass SR.
Period.
The reason: All of those effects are subject to resist/protection from energy, and MOST of them are subject to evasion. They are the ones that most need the help.
Force damage, negative energy damage, desiccation/dehydration damage, positive energy damage, untyped damage DO NOT bypass SR. Those effects already bypass almost all defenses. With the exception of undead/constructs & negative energy, virtually no creatures are resistant or immune to damages of these types and there are very limited countermeasures against them. Most are also Fort/Will effects or no save at all, so evasion is a non-issue.
If you want an in-game rationale, just say that these kinds of spells are purely focused magical energy, where elemental spells are manipulating the raw forces of the universe. Those forces are fundamentally natural; it is only your channeling and shaping of them that is magical.
A magic missile is a bolt of magical energy. A horrid wilting is trying to tear someone's water out of their body. These are purely magical effects poking or pulling at the target.
A lightning bolt is opening a pinhole into the Plane of Lightning and pointing it thataway. People in the way just get what comes naturally.
Yeah, I know it's not a perfect rationale, but its enough to work.
Except that the Evocations are specifically written in a way that says these energies are in no way natural. A Fireball expands without concussion. A Lightning Bolt doesn't get grounded out by the first grounded object encountered. Clothing doesn't insulate you from a Cone of Cold. "Sonic" effect, whatever that may be, doesn't behave like a shock wave.
Acid, on the other hand, is a conjuration and does behave as a natural acid attack would, except that it is contained in and directed by a force arrow or some other magical constraint. SR may cancel the constraint, but at that point the acid is in contact with the target and the success or failure of SR is of no effect.
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IMO the blanket ruling on elemental energy spells bypassing SR is as far as this conversation needs to go. (Although I respect keeping it on-topic).
I'd like to further restrict it to Reflex save energy spells. If you've got a spell that makes someone's blood boil, that's going to be a [Fire] spell, most likely, but a Fort save affecting one, and I'm not sure that fits the 'no SR' theme, since it's affecting the persons body, not just creating fire and throwing it at them.
I also like the OPs suggestion of a Feat that functions similar to the Warmage Edge, giving +Int bonus (Cha bonus, whatever) to the hit point damage of damaging energy spells (not to the 'damage' of spells that cause Ability Damage or negative levels!), so long as it's clarified to only affect the first missile of a Magic Missile or multiple 'Orb' spell.
Feats that give a different bonus, such as +1 / die, might be limited to only affect a certain Energy type (Fire, Cold, Electricity, Acid, Sonic, Force?), so that an Evoker wouldn't just do +1 / die with *all* energy spells.
Except that the Evocations are specifically written in a way that says these energies are in no way natural. A Fireball expands without concussion. A Lightning Bolt doesn't get grounded out by the first grounded object encountered. Clothing doesn't insulate you from a Cone of Cold. "Sonic" effect, whatever that may be, doesn't behave like a shock wave.
Acid, on the other hand, is a conjuration and does behave as a natural acid attack would, except that it is contained in and directed by a force arrow or some other magical constraint. SR may cancel the constraint, but at that point the acid is in contact with the target and the success or failure of SR is of no effect.
This strikes me as the heart of the problem with evocation: the spells are supposed to be big and flashy, but in the end they are all identical. Pains were taken to make sure they have no secondary effects; getting flame-broiled by a firemage is the exact same thing as being electrocuted. The only relevant difference is what sort of elemental resistance the target is sporting.
This is a problem. These spells could be as unique and interesting as other spells are, but because they were popular they were standardized. If there were secondary effects to evocations— if there were some reason to choose one over the other beyond DR— that would go a long way to putting the evoker on par with other casters in terms of power and entertainment.
Letting energy reflex save spells bypass SR is a great start. The second half of this solution is not a numerical one, it is a matter of spell effects. I don't think +x damage will satisfy. Let electrocution stun, let combustion set foes alight, let sonic damage deafen. How hard could it possibly be to include secondary effects that make these spells distinct? These should be the sort of secondary effects that most spells have— setting a few enemies on fire (depending on the saves and method of extinction) is still less complex than Color Spray.
Not only will this make the evoker feel like a mage again, it creates interesting and fun roleplay opportunities. The evoker becomes a master of the physical elements, whose spells work through the natural laws. This is very happily explained through D&D's canonical metaphysics, as one poster above noted, the evoker merely taps into the elemental plane and unleashes that energy. No spell resistance will help you (elemental resistance will) and you WILL suffer the full effects of that elemental fury.
The final point I'll make is that altering individual spells is better for compatibility than making core system changes, adding feats or class abilities.
In summation:
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In summation:
1 - Elemental spells that allow a reflex save for 1/2 are not subject to SR.
2 - Give the vanilla energy spells that have only standard damage output secondary effects that are evocative (sorry) of the element. MAKE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE ELEMENTS by supplementing the elemental spells.
That's a neat idea. You could use the Orb spells as an example, or just try and hand-balance them.
Cold spells could slow an enemy, Fire and Acid spells do 1d6 damage for a few rounds after, Electricity spells stun and Sonic spells deafen, perhaps.
It would be a flavor change, in some respects (since many of the effects would be unlikely to last for more than a round or two), but combined with other damage-enhancements (Warmage Edge-like Feats or extra hp / die 'Energy Enhancement' feats) and the no SR option, it could be nifty.
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Except that the Evocations are specifically written in a way that says these energies are in no way natural. A Fireball expands without concussion. A Lightning Bolt doesn't get grounded out by the first grounded object encountered. Clothing doesn't insulate you from a Cone of Cold. "Sonic" effect, whatever that may be, doesn't behave like a shock wave.
Well, there aren't actually 'elements' either, in reality, so I guess that we have to speculate somewhat about tapping the elemental planes.
On the subject of lightning bolts, I have always rationalised them as a plasma bolt of some sort, because there's no real way to make it work as electrical lightning (also, it seems to me that wearing metal armour ought to be a decent protection against lightning bolts...). Fireball isn't such a problem for me; it's a big fire appearing in a big area and, yes, there should be a whoosh of heated air, but there should be that with any suddenly appearing concentrated heatsource including whatever the fireball actually is. I personally don't think that the heat is enough to cause a tremendously significant concussion but I haven't tried to calculate it, either. Cone of cold is pretty weird anyhow -- what is it? -- but I guess that they could stick a bonus in to some sets of clothing.
Start by removing SR from the equation. Then either reduce all blasting effects by one action category (so Fireball is a Swift action for example)
First one justifies the action cost by holding it to a considerably lower standard via acknowledging the vast inferiority of blasting.
Issue with idea:
Swift actions can only be used 1/round. What does the Wizard do with standard action?It would be better if it was a choice rather than automatic.
Now, if instead 1/round, a Wizard can cast a Evoction spell as a swift action: then he gets the desired effect: a swift fireball and a standard one (heck, he might even kill something past level 8 with a fireball).
The whole swift action thing seems wrong to me. I don't think every rule should be measured against dumping out damage in the first round as fast as possible— that will make things boring.
I would much rather see secondary effects that would increase the tactical value of elemental spells in different ways. Make the mechanics of these spells as interesting as the other spells. It is very nice that they are all standardized and identical, but just a tiny bit of nuance would be great!
The Orbs are a great example of over-standardized spells. We could give each orb an effect (as a poster already said) and re-use those effects for other spells of that element. It could be centrally explained in the "Evocation" entry of the Schools section, as the SRD is especially lackluster there.
Expanding other's ideas:
The secondary effect should only take place if the target takes damage. If we wanted to avoid a second save, we might introduce a new mechanic whereby the secondary effect kicks in only if the damage surpasses some amount.
These are pretty much the same as another poster just mentioned, but they are far from perfect. Can we come to some community consensus on these effects? I would ask that secondary effects should be limited to x round durations, additional saves, or lost actions. Ability damage or anything that requires tracking a specific number to a target is probably out of the question.
I am of the opinion that evocation needs a major boost.
The conditions applying elemental spells have already been explored, the Orb spells. Although those are only for one round. I think it fits the evocation school to have such effects, but i'd like to have scaling effects with spell level, not just elemental based.
The damage needs to be somewhat increased. Fireball is still in the same shape it was back in ADnD, hp have doubled.
On the swift action thing. Although nice, it's a little too much balance-wise IMO, and I prefer the conditions add-on.
As many have said, SR for elements have to go.
Except that the Evocations are specifically written in a way that says these energies are in no way natural. A Fireball expands without concussion. A Lightning Bolt doesn't get grounded out by the first grounded object encountered. Clothing doesn't insulate you from a Cone of Cold. "Sonic" effect, whatever that may be, doesn't behave like a shock wave...
This strikes me as the heart of the problem with evocation: the spells are supposed to be big and flashy, but in the end they are all identical. Pains were taken to make sure they have no secondary effects; getting flame-broiled by a firemage is the exact same thing as being electrocuted. The only relevant difference is what sort of elemental resistance the target is sporting....
Letting energy reflex save spells bypass SR is a great start. The second half of this solution is not a numerical one, it is a matter of spell effects. I don't think +x damage will satisfy. Let electrocution stun, let combustion set foes alight, let sonic damage deafen. How hard could it possibly be to include secondary effects that make these spells distinct?...
In AD&D if you failed your save all your stuff had to make saving throws to avoid getting damaged. Most people didn't play it that way because it greatly slowed the pace. If you're worried about SR, throw flaming oil like you did before you got fireballs.
;)
My view on casters, saves, SR, and balancing spells:
Casters have large amounts of power to handle most "problems".
SR tends to be close enough to the character's level that you usually need to roll around a 10 to defeat the SR of a creature that is an equal CR to your level. This is definitely not good odds IF you are targeting a creature that is close to your CR.
Yes, the mass-damage spells (fireball, cone of cold) tend to be of reduced effectiveness in higher levels, but you have to look at it in a slightly different manner. You don't use those spells against 1-2 BBEGs, you use them against mass numbers of lower-level mooks, who have lower saves, lower SR, and resistances that you can overpower.
On the other hand, if you are against a single enemy, single-target damage spells (Orb of Force) tend to be ranged touch-attacks and ignore SR/Saves. Single-target spells of the type SoD/SoS -should- give SR/Saves, since if they hit every time, the game becomes about who has the highest initiative.
This balances out the fact that the Big Stupid Fighter is less useful against mass numbers of mooks, but would work better against a single BBEG, as long as he has adequate magic support. The fighter's version of "Save or Die" is (usually) a big, pointy object, and although it can have its own problems (AC and DR), it can definitely ignore the saves and SR problems mages have to deal with. If the casters do their job right, the fighter -doesn't- have a problem with the AC or DR.
Casters -can- be walking artillery platforms, but at that point they are one-man parties (with meatshield), and don't work as effectively. The game as is does work well to encourage teamwork. It doesn't -mandate- the teamwork, just means the party is less effective overall if you don't work together.
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If you're concerned that damage spells are being overshadowed by other, more powerful spells (eg. save-or-lose spells), wouldn't it make more sense to reduce the power of the more powerful spells? Since when did wizards need more powerful options at their disposal in order to function well in a party?
My thought: if Pathfinder is going to balance the game by making every single option as powerful as the most powerful option of any class, that's poor game design because you end up with "rocket launcher tag" (as Psychic_Robot put it).
That would actually be my suggestion as well. I do see the attraction of making the blasting spells better, since damage from them has stayed the same since 1st Ed and hit points have multiplied by a bunch. It's not entirely an either/or; I can see the point of increasing the damage from blasting spells regardless of what else we do.
That stated, since the clr/wiz/drd/sor are deemed already the most uber-awesome classes, the solution is not to make their weaker spells more awesome, but to DE-power the overpowered SoD/SoS/condition-imposing spells already there. I have some thought on this and I'll post them when we are in the Spells playtest period.
Now I will say this:
A "make blasting better" rule works a lot better with facilitating backwards comp with other 3.5 products, since even if you fix every broken/uber/awesome spell in core, you can't fix all the ones in the Spell Compendium and every other 3.5 book.
You would need to both fix the core spells that will be in PF and establish a "spell nerfage rule" to address spells from external sources. Like:
"Save or die spells instead inflict 10 points of damage/level."
"Spells that cause petrification cause slow, then save again every round or be paralyzed, then save again every round or be turned to stone."
"Spells that cause persistent effects allow victims to make a new saving throw as a free action at the end of their turn each round."
Or whatever. These are...
Yeah, that is what I actually do like about 4th Edition -- the "save ends" and "ongoing damage" make the mid-to-high level play more balanced, and removes the irritating 'save-or-die'-effects from the game (I do think that most creatures should lose such abilities). I see it pretty much every high-level session when PCs die because of a single failed saving throw, and the player skips the rest of the session because of that.
Your suggestions are very good -- why couldn't PF also have saves each round against ongoing/persistent effects and damage? Or a simplified "condition track" to track your petrification/charmed "progress"?
For example, the Medusa's petrifying gaze might work like this: Staggered / Slowed / Petrified (Fort DC 15, killed when petrified). Or, the Vampire's Domination: Dazed / Charmed / Dominated (Will DC 19, save ends the ongoing effect).
Or, it could be even a simpler system: Petrifying gaze (-1 for each failed save vs. Fort DC 15, 3 failed saves result in becoming petrified) .
In any case, I'm not suggesting any "tokens" for the game, but maybe the effects from multiple sources should be cumulative (e.g. three medusas targeting your character would result in being petrified, if you failed all saves)?
I don't know if this should be posted under evokers, spells, feats or items. But, as the current system works, there are some major problems with people who want to play “nuking” spellcasters. Summoning spells work, enchanting spells work, even a shapeshifter is still pretty much doable under the current system. But the old fashioned fireball wizard is somewhat laughable.
As with overpowered spells, my solution to underpowered spells is to fix the spells directly:
--Direct damage spells increase damage geometrically to match enemy hp increase. For example a 1st-2nd level DD spell deals (1d4+1)/CL, a 3rd-4th level DD deals (1d4+2)/CL, etc...
--Each DD spell can be cast spontaneously in a variety of forms; a ball, a cone, a line, etc...
--DD spells increase in AoE at each spell level, but can be reduced in AoE spontaneously at the caster's option.
--Like all my other spell fixes, DD spells go up to the 10th level at class level 19.
--Empower, maximize and other DD boosters do not exist, because DD spells are now 'just right'.
TS
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I'm thinking of trying out a system that would add *Caster Level* to damage, instead of adding more dice, i.e. a fireball cast by a 10th level wizard would inflict 5D6 + 30 (3 points per level) damage. Only the "base die" would count, i.e. a 5th level caster would therefore inflict31D4 + 15 points with his magic missile. And Burning Hands cast by an 8th wizard would cause 5D4 + 24 points of damage.
Thoughts?