One thing I never really liked about 3.x was the regular buying and selling of magical items. In most of the campaigns I was in during advanced and 2nd ed, magic items where rare things that you didn't sell off (if it was evil and you were a paladin you might destroy it though).
Four things bother me about this:
1. NPC pricing and selling. Ok I'm a wizard, I walk into "el magic shoppe" and go to sell a brand new sword + 1, the merchant says "1,000 gp take it or leave it". Now I'm a wizard with Int 20 and I know the fighter told me he bought a sword for 2,000 gp brand new. Why should I expect less for mine? I'm not stupid and I know the merchant is going to sell it for more why shouldn't I?
2. Wealth levels lead to economic issues in game. With an average person in D&D only seeing a gold piece a year I'm walking around with enough gold to buy and sell whole cities. Just doesn't seem right.
3. NPC's wealth guidelines are well behind PC guidelines, meaning that the NPC isn't as good as the PC for some reason. If the PC's are playing anything other than a heroic campaign that becomes odd.
4. It really doesn't help determine what a "balance" character might look like, and what items might/should be expected at which levels.
With that in mind and the understanding some people still like to start at higher levels, why not a magic item equilency chart instead? I would point out to the back of the PHB2 but that's not OGL... I can't imagine it would be too hard to come up with something though.
I want to see a more flexible system as well.
Perhaps it could be included in the expanded encounter balancing rules I keep asking, nay begging for! I can't wait for the Running chapter to come up for review.
I have needs.
Even if JB were to just write up a set of guidelines for how many of which item types a PC should have at what levels, it would be a huge help to inexperienced DMs and DMs who wanted to run low item games. I have a set of guidelines that I worked out during my 3e DMing years, but it isn't at all obvious just from looking at WBL guidelines in the DMG.
TS
An other issue this leads too:
Player Hoarding.
The player doesn't want to pay for a ress or use charged items becuase he's eating away at what the player incorrectly sees as his maximum reward by level 20. The mentality I've heard on this is, "If I use or spend this now I'll be behind on my wealth once I hit level (x) and I won't be able to afford that (magic item) I'm saving up for."
Which leads back into the above problems and the idea that magic items are unique and worth something becomes more suspect. Players expect to have "x" and that it will be made available to them, if it doesn't they get perpetulant (the more inmature ones) and want to know why, "The DM is keeping me behind on purpose."
Note that the pricing of magic items exists as a general guidance. "The assumption is that, while they are rare, magic items can be bought and sold as any other commodity can be." (DMG pg. 142, Magic Items) However, on the same page, there is some other general guidance: "In some civilized areas, the use of magic might be restricted or prohibited. A license might be required, or perhaps official permission from the local ruler would enable a spellcaster to use his powers, but without such permission, magic use is forbidden." (DMG pg. 142, Restrictions on Magic)
Just because something can be bought and sold, doesn't mean it's easy to do so. For instance, take firearms in the real world. Even in the U.S. (where it's much easier to own a gun than many places in the world), to buy a gun legally in most areas you need a license, insurance, and there's usually a waiting period. Also, there are restrictions on the type of guns and ammunition it's legal for a private citizen to own (no .30 caliber machine guns, etc.).
How common the buying and selling of magic items is in a campaign is completely up to the DM. The DM doesn't have to have "MagicMarts" in every community or completely ban the purchase and/or sale of magic. It's fairly easy to work out a tiered system where Minor items (per the DMG categories of Minor, Medium, and Major) can be bought and sold relatively easily, Medium items can be commissioned from a few rare craftsmen/spellcasters, and Major items must be specifically quested for. Also, the "sale" of an evil item by a good party could just as easily be a bounty paid by a good church for its destruction by the clergy.
The buying/selling and market price structure is a framework. How a given campaign uses that framework is another story...
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It's pretty much built into the encounter/challenge system, so I don't see how you can change it and use previous adventure material.
If it was up to me, I'd like to see ability boosts more often (alleviating some of the dependence on boosters), magic weapons and armour cheaper (as CoL was talking about in this thread for armour) and maybe more powerful physical feats.
As for the OP's point about the wholesale price being so much cheaper than the store price, I guess that's just commercial life. I imagine Paizo themselves would have something to say about the difference between the price they sell into distribution and the price at which they're sold in the stores, except that they can't really be saying things like that (given that they depend on the stores to sell the stuff in addition to their on-line channels).
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I dealt with this problem by introducing 'bound' magic items - Once you have used a certain magic item for a while, its magic becomes attuned to the weilder, and cannot be used by any other. That way, a lot of the selling frenzy is prevented.
It is still possible to buy a magic item from a vendor of sorts, but it has become less attractive, since the players tend to have less gold coming in from obsolete magic items. Items such as wands, potions and scrolls do not get bound - only items that bestow a continuous bonus of some sort.
I also tend to introduce some events, that the players may have to spend a lot of their gold on. For instance, in my current campaign, an undead army is laying waste to an island. The closer they get to the capital, and the more obvious it is, that the capital is going to fall, the more expensive it becomes to get a spot on a boat off the island. In the end, the players had three options - Buy passage for 1000gp, sneak aboard the ship or serve the kings last defenders. The players chose different options, but eventually ended up aboard the same ship for different reasons. Look at me sidetracking here... :-)
Anywho, the binding of magic items to the user has done a lot for our game, and the players agree.
I am working on a system where a crafter can 'disenchant' an item to add some of its magical energy (Based on base cost) to a new item.
I'm currently using a system similar to this bound magic item concept, using Weapons of Legacy as a starting point for having items that grow with the character. I'm also working on a system that allows players to "buy" some standard magic (resistance bonus to saves, enhancement bonus to abilities, etc.) as standard aspects of the character rather than being linked to a magic item. This will lower the expected wealth per level of the character by the same amount as the magic item would have cost, with the goal of returning true magic items to being something extraordinary rather than just a +X required to stay competitive against a higher CR creature.
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Other than mucking with the CR system (which is creaky enough already), aren't you mostly screwing the meleers with this? They rely on magic items -- the ones they want, too -- and they can't make their own...
Sure, you can avoid problems in your own adventures by putting more meleer-friendly magic around, but you'd need to rewrite all published stuff. Also, if you bond items, how does taking stuff from the corpses of your enemies work? If killing them breaks the bond, which makes some sort of sense, then you basically have to kill everything rather than use other methods to get their stuff.
My players have never had extra money (level 5 now), as I use the DMG rules for paying for training.
I'm currently using a system similar to this bound magic item concept, using Weapons of Legacy as a starting point for having items that grow with the character. I'm also working on a system that allows players to "buy" some standard magic (resistance bonus to saves, enhancement bonus to abilities, etc.) as standard aspects of the character rather than being linked to a magic item. This will lower the expected wealth per level of the character by the same amount as the magic item would have cost, with the goal of returning true magic items to being something extraordinary rather than just a +X required to stay competitive against a higher CR creature.
This is exactly what I did near the end of my 3e DMing career, except that those basic bonuses weren't bought. I just gave my PCs 2 "character points" per level to spend on them, then ignored WBL and gave out only cool items.
TS
I'm currently using a system similar to this bound magic item concept, using Weapons of Legacy as a starting point for having items that grow with the character. I'm also working on a system that allows players to "buy" some standard magic (resistance bonus to saves, enhancement bonus to abilities, etc.) as standard aspects of the character rather than being linked to a magic item. This will lower the expected wealth per level of the character by the same amount as the magic item would have cost, with the goal of returning true magic items to being something extraordinary rather than just a +X required to stay competitive against a higher CR creature.This is exactly what I did near the end of my 3e DMing career, except that those basic bonuses weren't bought. I just gave my PCs 2 "character points" per level to spend on them, then ignored WBL and gave out only cool items.
TS
That's what I'm shooting for, but trying to keep some balance to the system using the standard GP costs from the SRD. So, a 5th level character might have a true "magic bow" that shots flaming arrows (a 6,300 or so gp item) plus have learned to use bows more effectively (the old +1 Enhancement bonus) at a "cost" of 2,000 gp. I'm thinking this type of benefit would be transferable to other weapons, but the character would need time to train with the new weapon. Same for armor. Characters might become better at dodging blows (costing the same as a deflection/natural armor bonus--some obvious benefits and drawbacks between each type are kept in mind), resisting saves, etc. Basically any magic item that boils down to a simple bonus to a game mechanic can become part of the character, rather than gained through an item (though such items might also exist). I haven't worked out the split yet between what would be gained as treasure versus becoming character options.
A couple of things.
NPC's have less wealth because if an NPC had the same number of items as the equivalent PC, then NPC's become *much* better sources of income than say.. dragons.
I mean- think about it. PC's go whack an NPC group and get their *WBL* worth of gear? for the whole party? Then you really have a problem with the GP system as a whole.
Instead, PC's are relatively unique. They are *the* heroes. The NPC's are just helpers, (or mooks, or whatever). You can still make the NPC's relatively just as powerful by having them employ a few spells before combat. (stat booster spells, when PC's are using stat boosting items, or whatnot). Not perfect, I know.. But the current system keeps NPC badguys (rather than monster bad guys) on par with the character wealth system.
Ye Olde Magic Shoppe
I have yet to play in a campaign where items were literally "freely given" in shops and such, except in the very highest of levels. (where levels so high the PC's can literally take 3 days to travel *the world* in search of a given item due to teleport and whatnot, if they so desired) and even then only relatively mundane items could be found. If you wanted something special- good luck. Or have a heavy purse, or both.
The "ye old magic shoppe" syndrome however is *extremely* useful for discussions concerning balance because without the WBL guide and the YOMS, trying to compare 2 characters becomes an issue of agreeing before hand what houserule for loot you are going to use. Not exactly useful.
(for example- we can compare two (insert class here) with a WBL of 6k, and see what is or isn't balanced at whatever CR it is we're testing. If instead there *is no* WBL, or the WBL is wishywashy then we have no standard to test by.). We NEED that standard so that folks in general can have meaningful discussions as to whether any given class, special ability, spell, item, or whatever is appropriate for that level.
What WBL doesn't mean.
WBL doesn't mean that you, the DM, are required to put YOMS in every city, hovel, hamlet, and town. They don't mean you actually have to give your PC's a certain amount of cash each level to prevent them from "falling behind". It is, like everything else, a guideline. Some campaigns will have less and others will have more. It's a guide not a strait jacket. Just you, the DM, be careful when introducing some monsters if you haven't also provided *some* means for the PC's to overcome that monster, if it has particularly effective forms of defense. (i.e. if you don't have any means for the PC's to acquire silver weapons, avoid sending creatures at them with dr/silver, and so on)
The PC who hoards.
Let him. If the PC wants to intentionally gimp himself now for future gain- let him. Just keep in mind later on, that the item he wants isn't necessarily just laying around at YOMS for him to go and grab.
Lay-a-way hasn't been invented yet, nor has Wal-Mart. Saving up 200k for that Staff of Power is all well and good, assuming he can find someone who will sell him one.. and assuming that individual charges him 200k.
They should only have the expectation that they *can* find it, if you have through your campaign, given them the idea that magical items are free to buy whenever they have the cash. If you don't setup YOMS in your world then the PC has no expectation of it. (and vice versa- if all through their career magical items are freely found and he finally gets the cash and you just refuse to give him that item, he'll be rather irked. If the item in question doesn't exist and you *know* he's after it, tell him early on.. but don't change the rules mid game without some sort of character-DM conference to discuss what's goin on. -there is nothing wrong- with altering things to make them run more smoothly, just don't surprise the PC's with it.)
In short:
We need a solid WBL and the YOMS to discuss the classes. That doesn't mean you have to follow the WBL or have the YOMS in your campaign.
-S