Damage Reduction at 7th level of 1/-, 13th of 2/-, 16th of 3/- and 19th of 4/- is vastly underpowered.
Trap Sense is also underpowered, as it's a very situational bonus.
I'd like to see Trap Sense done away with and replaced by Damage Reduction starting at 3rd level and following the same progression: 1/- at 3rd and increasing every 3 levels.
3rd: 1/-
6th: 2/-
9th: 3/-
12th: 4/-
15th: 5/-
18th: 6/-
Using this cool tool you can see that even with the increased progression it still doesn't even keep up with monsters Str MOD in damage.
CR F Rec AC BAB Melee Str_Mod
3 Avg 72 16.14 3.26 5.28 2.21
3 Max 72 23.00 6.00 11.00 7.00
6 Avg 28 18.61 7.39 11.61 4.21
6 Max 28 29.00 12.00 21.00 12.00
9 Avg 35 21.43 11.57 17.80 6.56
9 Max 35 29.00 18.00 28.00 14.00
12 Avg 14 21.64 16.14 24.21 8.07
12 Max 14 28.00 30.00 42.00 12.00
15 Avg 8 29.75 18.88 28.13 9.25
15 Max 8 34.00 24.00 33.00 12.00
18 Avg 8 32.75 24.25 35.13 10.88
18 Max 8 37.00 30.00 41.00 19.00
MegaPlex, that's not a bad thought, because better DR would supercede the need for trap sense: if you get hit with a poison needle for 2 points of damage plus poison, and you have DR 2/--, you don't have to worry about the poison, either.
What I'd really like is a rage power that doubles your DR while you're raging (or triples, with Greater Rage).
I would have to agree here. Eliminating trap sense sounds good to me. Giving them a greater DR would make mithral full plate the idea armor of choice, which I like, sense DR's don't stack..
Trap sense was never usefull, and the DR progression was till slow, and too little.
Also DR has never been that good ability because about everything surpassed it, even non magical fire, in 3e and sense.
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I would have to agree here. Eliminating trap sense sounds good to me. Giving them a greater DR would make mithral full plate the idea armor of choice, which I like, sense DR's don't stack..
Trap sense was never usefull, and the DR progression was till slow, and too little.
Also DR has never been that good ability because about everything surpassed it, even non magical fire, in 3e and sense.
What about replacing it by giving barbarians the good progression on their ref saves? The class has always been flavoured as a dexterous wild dervish...
What about replacing it by giving barbarians the good progression on their ref saves? The class has always been flavoured as a dexterous wild dervish...I would have to agree here. Eliminating trap sense sounds good to me. Giving them a greater DR would make mithral full plate the idea armor of choice, which I like, sense DR's don't stack..
Trap sense was never usefull, and the DR progression was till slow, and too little.
Also DR has never been that good ability because about everything surpassed it, even non magical fire, in 3e and sense.
I wouldn't mind that ether, but I think it might be too much.
I have always liked intermediate reflex saves, poor but +1 at level 1, 9, and 18.
Maybe they could give a class ability for something like this?
To keep it backwards compatibale......i'm going to try and replace trapsense with fast healing.....of the same plus.....
also this ability of fast healing is only going to work while in a rage.....for free most likly....not costing any points
I like your DR system, trapsense was always garbage.
Using the alternate ability in Pathfinder Chronicles: Gazetteer, barbarians from the Lands of the Linnorm Kings, the Realm of the Mammoth Lords, and Sarkoris can choose to gain Cold Resistance in place of Trap Sense. At 3rd level, they gain Cold Resistance 2, increasing by 2 for every 3 additional levels (up to Cold Resistance 12 at 18th level).
The barbarian's DR is already fairly powerful. DR X/- is hard to gain (other than the barbarian class ability and adamantine armor, I don't think there is any other way in 3.5 core, except for the dwarven defender PrC, or PFRPG) and works against all physical attacks (even aligned weapons, magic weapons, special materials, etc.).
To borrow a term, this really nerfs the Barbarian's class ability. It limits DR to almost exclusively weapon damage because now enchantments (like Flaming, Icy, etc.) now come through the DR.
And said enchantments are completely blocked by as little as 6 points of energy resistance (since extra damage is not multiplied on a critical hit; a burst weapon would possibly still do energy damage on a critical hit, depending on the energy resistance value and the weapon's critical multiplier). As a melee class, taking less damage from every single bite, claw, slam, weapon blow, etc. is not "nerfed" because damage caused by something other than said bite, claw, slam, weapon, etc. is not affected by DR.
I like your DR system, trapsense was always garbage.
I too say ditch Trapsense and give the poor dude DR or Fast Healing.
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I like the ideas gents. I'd personally vote to scrap Trapsense, just because it is a hold-over of much older editions and really doesn't make that much sense.
I would certainly improve the Ref save to intermediate.
I would remove Trap Sense, and reduce the Barbarian's HD to d10, but increase his DR ability.
Fast Healing might be a fun Rage Power. I dunno about that though, I'd have to see it in play a time or two.
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I was like meh, our DR is pretty ok, and then I looked at the fighter a little closer and my jaw dropped. Armory Mastery, DR 5/- if your not in your skivvies. (please change the official wording to that :) I realize that Barb's get DR long before the fighter, but that the fighter should leapfrog them in one fell swoop is kind of a poke in the eye. I was always to understand that the Barb's DR was to make up for the lack of armor, but now warriors have AC +7 (+4 training, +3 from Medium vs Heavy Armor, nm shields) and DR 5/- vs the Barb's DR 3/- and probably at least 3 less AC. Barbs should be the DR kings and Fighters the AC kings (while in armor, vs rogues/monks with avoidance.)
I was like meh, our DR is pretty ok, and then I looked at the fighter a little closer and my jaw dropped. Armory Mastery, DR 5/- if your not in your skivvies. (please change the official wording to that :) I realize that Barb's get DR long before the fighter, but that the fighter should leapfrog them in one fell swoop is kind of a poke in the eye. I was always to understand that the Barb's DR was to make up for the lack of armor, but now warriors have AC +7 (+4 training, +3 from Medium vs Heavy Armor, nm shields) and DR 5/- vs the Barb's DR 3/- and probably at least 3 less AC. Barbs should be the DR kings and Fighters the AC kings (while in armor, vs rogues/monks with avoidance.)Ah, but you're forgetting that
- Barbarians get their DR a whole heck of a lot earlier, and
- they can increase their DR 5/- to 8/- & can have DR 7/- long before the Fighter gets his DR 5/-.
Now there is a call to further increase it, along with what can be gained from adamantine armor (2/- for medium)? Who is the best tank now eh? Say you have DR 8/- and adamantine medium armor improving that to DR 10/-. The fighter can get close only at 19th level with heavy adamantine armor at a DR 8/- (and your DR cannot be targeted, while his can).
Both the barbarian and the fighter get full-attacked by an old red dragon (technically a CR 20 critter) and it connects on all six attacks. An old red has a +36 attack bonus, probably has improved multitattack at that point, thus for all practical purposes it will hit on every attack. It has the standard +12 STR bonus and is Gargantuan, dealing 4d6+12 with its bite <26 points averaged damage>; 2d8+6 with each of 2 claws <15 points averaged damage per claw attack>; 2d6+6 with each of 2 wings <13 points averaged damage per wing attack>; and 2d8+18 with its tail slap <averaged damage of 27 points>. Total averaged damage is 109 points.
Using the heroic melee NPC build and only a +6 CON bonus from a magical belt for a total CON of 20 (+5 bonus), averaged hit points for the comparisons work out @ 19th level as
- Barbarian: 224 increasing to 281 from Greater Rage <+57 from increased CON> (12 1st HD, +117 from 18d12, +95 CON)
- Fighter: 204 (10 1st HD, +99 from 18d10, +95 from CON)
Against the barbarian in his medium adamantine armor at 19th level, that fully volley of six melee attacks from a dragon the size of a small keep, the character takes (16 +5 +5 +3 +3 +17 =) 49 points. Presuming the barbarian is raging, it will take the dragon 6 full-round attacks without ANY healing to dispatch the barbarian.
Against the fighter in his heavy adamantine armor at 19th level takes (18 +7 +7 +5 +5 +19 =)61 points, moves at half the speed of the barbarian and has invested a lot more gp into having 2 less DR/-. The dragon requires "only" 4 rounds to rub out the fighter in the same manner as the barbarian.
Both characters are liable to have whiped the floor with the dragon by that juncture, even if they are shaken from the dragon's Frightful Presence. Given that there are probably at least 3 other characters present, the dragon will not get any one, and the odds are it will not be able to get away to fight another day - most likely due to the very few first hits having disabled its winged flight.
Barring the dragon having some ability to bypass adamantine-grade hardness it has no realistic chance of sundering the fighter's armor - and even if it did, it would only remove the fighter's DR while reducing the barbarian's DR a paltry 2 points (20%). During which actions the dragon has inflicted NO damage, on any one.
Given that the dragon's breath weapon cannot bypass the initial layer or two of energy defenses the intruders into its lair are warded against to any significant degree, the dragon is reduced from a nominal threat to a minimal threat. The only thing that might have mattered is its frightful presence - but against anything other than catapult fodder, it merely induces the shaken condition. And at 19th level, if the party has any clue it is going up against such a creature, buffers against the frightful presence are going to come into play - ones that the dragon cannot do anything about given its CL 11, minute spells list and pathetic SR 24 against a party. Even against a 16th level party, the SR 24 at best is going to be only marginally effective at 35% stoppage rate. Against an elf or any one else with simple Spell Penetration that drops to 25%. Against anyone with GSP or an elf with SP that drops to 15%. Against a 16th level elf wizard with GSP that drops to 5%. O.o For a CR 20 foe of such magnititude, that seems pretty weak. Granted, this same 16th level party is not packing a barbarian with DR 10/- nor a fighter with any DR x/- at all by Pathfinder rules, so the encounter is definitely a bit tougher for them...
Now there is a call to further increase it, along with what can be gained from adamantine armor (2/- for medium)? Who is the best tank now eh? Say you have DR 8/- and adamantine medium armor improving that to DR 10/-. The fighter can get close only at 19th level with heavy adamantine armor at a DR 8/- (and your DR cannot be targeted, while his can).
unless i missed a rules change, DR does not stack when its gained from separate sources. so the barbarian DR or the fighters DR would not stack withthe DR gained by wearing adamantine armor
Now there is a call to further increase it, along with what can be gained from adamantine armor (2/- for medium)? Who is the best tank now eh? Say you have DR 8/- and adamantine medium armor improving that to DR 10/-. The fighter can get close only at 19th level with heavy adamantine armor at a DR 8/- (and your DR cannot be targeted, while his can).unless i missed a rules change, DR does not stack when its gained from separate sources. so the barbarian DR or the fighters DR would not stack withthe DR gained by wearing adamantine armor
Thought that was from the same type of bonus (enhancement, luck, insight, et al) with the primary exclusions of untyped and dodge bonuses. Since neither armor nor the damage reduction class feature gives that untyped DR by a type of bonus, why wouldn't they stack?
Then again, frankly, a paladin has better things to do with their gp than invest them in a paltry DR 3/- armor. If they do not stack, then adamantine armor is no longer a necessary item. I've not noticed any one willingly choosing adamantine armor unless it could be stacked with another source of untyped DR.
An interesting point to be sure - thanks!
page 394 of the PFRPG, Damage Reduction
quoting relevant portion......
If a creature has damage reduction from more than one
source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack.
Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage
reduction in a given situation.
adamantine is one source
class abilities are another source
feats would be another source
as would spells.
unless the source specifically states it stacks, the general rule applies.
page 394 of the PFRPG, Damage Reduction
quoting relevant portion......
If a creature has damage reduction from more than one
source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack.
Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage
reduction in a given situation.adamantine is one source
class abilities are another source
feats would be another source
as would spells.unless the source specifically states it stacks, the general rule applies.
Most excellent obi-wan, many thanks. :)
Hrm ... so, fighters can only get armor-based DR until 19th, then (theoretically) they can cashier that armor due to acquiring armor mastery.
Meanwhile bubbas get innate DR, thusly not needing adamantine armor at all.
I can't WAIT to see a module or AP using an "A4" scenario in the Pathfinder rules set. ^_^
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Ah but the fighter can also gain DR 4/- from his shield if he takes the right feats, so a fighter can have DR 7/- with heavy adamantine as early as level 10 I believe, becoming 12/- at 20. It also specifically states for the shield feats that the DR/- stacks with other DR/-. I believe the first of the shield feats becomes available to the warrior at level 4. Fighters really rack up the DR and the AC where Barbs only get DR and less of it.