Maximize Speel & Summon Monster / Nature's Ally


3.5/d20/OGL

Shadow Lodge

Okay the very first sentence of Max. Spell say that you max out ALL numeric varialbes. So if you use Summon lv2 to summon from the first lv list shouldn't you get tha max numbers of creatures? (in this case 3)

Scarab Sages

Yes, I would say it does.


Jawohl

Shadow Lodge

Now tell that to my DM! These arguments seem to happen a lot... oh well. (^-^)

Scarab Sages

Just curious: why are you using a maximized summon spell instead of the higher-level version?

Scarab Sages

Maybe to ensure you get a maximum number of the creatures you want.

Scarab Sages

I get that, but you could just cast the level+3 version and get 1d4+1 or a much better creature.

Now, if you are dead-set on the option of calling lower-level creatures with Metamagic, then Empower Spell is a better bet as it would give you 1d3*1.5 or 1d4*1.5+1 creatures at the expense of one spell slot lower than Maximize Spell.

Scarab Sages

Wha?

Shadow Lodge

RioTsunami wrote:
Wha?

Same here are you summoning half a creature?


The 1.5 refers to the Empower Spell feat. Since it adds half again the rolled amount, it can be represented as 1d3*1.5 (half again the amount from 1 level lower), or 1d4*1.5 +1 (half again the amount from 2 levels or more lower, plus one). I assume that's what the question "Wha?" was about...

Shadow Lodge

Yes.


Slatz Grubnik wrote:
The 1.5 refers to the Empower Spell feat. Since it adds half again the rolled amount, it can be represented as 1d3*1.5 (half again the amount from 1 level lower), or 1d4*1.5 +1 (half again the amount from 2 levels or more lower, plus one). I assume that's what the question "Wha?" was about...

I assume the reasoning is that you naturally round up the .5 since you can't get half a creature, and so it's a smarter (i.e., more efficient) metamagic choice. Thus, in this particular case at least, Empower is just a better option, since 1d3 winds up granting you anywhere from 2, 3, or 5 (1 X 1.5 = 2 rounding up, 2 X 1.5 = 3, and 3 x 1.5 = 5, rounding up) creatures for 1 spell slot lower, versus a solid 3 at the higher spell slot. If I'm doing the math right, Empower would average 4 creatures at a lower spell slot (though you'll never actually get 4 with a given casting, but any fraction of a creature would seem to grant you a creature) whereas Maximize would always grant 3. That does seem like a better deal, but check with your DM first.

It would seem harsh for your DM to ignore the fraction, but before you take the feat make sure the DM determines that it would apply. I could see a DM ruling that since you can't get a fractional creature that only Maximize would apply, just to keep that issue from even arising.


Luchian wrote:
I assume the reasoning is that you naturally round up the .5 since you can't get half a creature, and so it's a smarter (i.e., more efficient) metamagic choice.

Except that, per the RAW, unless specifically noted otherwise, all fractions are rounded DOWN. So 1d3*1.5 would yield the following:

1 --> 1
2 --> 3
3 --> 4

2/3 of the time you'd get 1 extra critter, and 1/3 of the time you'd derive no benefit at all, and in either case just using a summon monster spell 1 level higher to get 1d4+1 would almost always be a better choice.

That said, I've housruled continued increases in numbers of lower-level critters beyond 1d4+1 (1d3, 1d4+1, 2d4+1, 2d6+4, etc. -- the progression seems odd, but the mean increases by a factor of approx 1.75 each time).

Scarab Sages

I'll break it down a little better.

Summon Monster III
Maximize Spell: 6th level spell slot;
Result: Can get 5 creatures from summon monster II or 3 from summon monster I.
Empower Spell: 5th level spell slot;
Result: Can get 1, 3, 4 creatures from summon monster II or 2, 4, 5, 7 creatures from summon monster I

Or just going with a higher level spell:
Summon Monster VI: 1-3 from summon monster V or 2-5 from summon monster IV or lower.
Summon Monster V: 1-3 from summon monster IV or 2-5 from summon monster III or lower.

In terms of sheer numbers, Maximize of course guarantees 3 or 5 creatures. But Empower Spell gives you an average of 3 and 4 respectively, at a lower spell slot.

Overall I agree with Kirth, that using the higher level version to get 2 or 3 is a sturdier choice. But if you absolutely must have more using metamagic, keep Empower Spell in mind.


I'd also say, if you can afford it, get a metamagic rod of empower or maximize. That way you're not losing a higher level spell slot.

Scarab Sages

Slatz Grubnik wrote:
I'd also say, if you can afford it, get a metamagic rod of empower or maximize. That way you're not losing a higher level spell slot.

Keeping in mind the Empower rod is much cheaper. :)

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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