I'd take Alexa information with a grain of salt. You can read their own disclaimers here, but in my experience, it's not terribly accurate for us. Because all of their data is measured relative to all internet traffic from Alexa users, and we don't know what the trend of either "all internet traffic" or "all Alexa users" is, it's impossible for us to be certain... but I have noticed that they show paizo.com as staying relatively flat over the last year when we know our traffic is up significantly.
I'm fine with that.
I don't doubt that it is a rough ballpark estimate.I think you can take a nice heaping of salt and still stand by the point I'm making.
Looks to me like Enworld just spikes a lot and not that they are doing particularly worse then their historical average.
You must be looking at a very different chart than I am.
Wizards is orders of magnitude larger then either enworld or pazio. This implies to me that those that believe that Pazio can some how replace wizards as top dog in the RPG industry are fooling themselves. At this point they are just not comparable in any way shape or form in terms of size.
I have not read every single post in this thread, but isn't that a major change in topic?
Paizo can still be vastly smaller than WotC and it also remain true that Pathfinder was a vastly better choice than the GSL.
I don't think Paizo could have made a mistake either way.
Paizo makes outstanding products, and I'd like to think that they would be successful no matter what edition they supported.
If they had decided to switch, and spent the months leading up to the 4e release selling 3.5 adventures, or even non-edition fluff books (like Guide to Korvosa), I think they would have been successful.
They probably wouldn't have seen an increase in sales like they did upon the announcement to create Pathfinder, but I'd like to think that their products would have been good enough to keep them all employed until they got out their first 4e products.
And I have NO DOUBT IN MY MIND that the Paizo 4e products would have been the best products available.
I thought I would be playing 4e by now, but I'm not. And the reason is that the 4e stuff out there just isn't up to the standard that I've become used to under Paizo's days of running Dragon and Dungeon Magazines, and in a sense, running D&D itself.
I still expect to play 4e sometime, but right now I just don't know when.
I don't think Paizo could have made a mistake either way.
Paizo makes outstanding products, and I'd like to think that they would be successful no matter what edition they supported.
If they had decided to switch, and spent the months leading up to the 4e release selling 3.5 adventures, or even non-edition fluff books (like Guide to Korvosa), I think they would have been successful.
They probably wouldn't have seen an increase in sales like they did upon the announcement to create Pathfinder, but I'd like to think that their products would have been good enough to keep them all employed until they got out their first 4e products.
And I have NO DOUBT IN MY MIND that the Paizo 4e products would have been the best products available.
I thought I would be playing 4e by now, but I'm not. And the reason is that the 4e stuff out there just isn't up to the standard that I've become used to under Paizo's days of running Dragon and Dungeon Magazines, and in a sense, running D&D itself.
I still expect to play 4e sometime, but right now I just don't know when.
I totally agree, I wish Paizo every success because they are a fresh perspective on the market and would produce excellent material for 4E as well as Pathfinder 3rd ed and many others.
Mongoose have done an excellent job with Conan D20 which is a very good setting but have yet to create decent adventures for the setting so I hope mongoose might approach Paizo to produce some adventures.
|
So your saying the WOTC GSL is the cause and not Paizo? See that's what I had thought had happened ages ago but have not kept up with the latest changes.
I thought that with Goodman games creating 4E stuff the restriction on 3rd parties and 4E had 'softened', I take it that's not the case? I didn't get the impression that Paizo was disinterested with 4E but that they just gave up the 4E option due to the GSL.
As of the 17th of this month, the announced revision of the GSL has NOT been touched. Don't take my word for it, however, go straight to Mr. Rouse, who mentions it here. Whatever deal Goodman Games got is between them and WotC. They may have flexed based upon conversation with WotC on what the GSL is supposed to be, or may have decided to risk working under the GSL in order to get an early market establishment. For whatever reason, it definitely isn't because the promised revised GSL is in anyone's hands.
|
Irrelevant when they start when discussion how much money has been made? That is like saying it makes as much since to complain a team hasn't one a single game whether it is during the very first game of the season or is in the middle of the season. Of course when it started matters. If you couldn't sell products before a certain date, then you would not have ... sold any products during that time. We have exactly 20 days of potential sales to go on, and I seriously doubt many retailers have any real information on these sales yet.
4e was released in june. If you arent making money when the iron is hot., Its irrelevant when wotcs artifical start date is.
Is anyone making money? as a 3PP? No? Then eric is still correct. WHy should it be a mistake then for them to not have jumped on board? They cant make money with it yet....
If they haven't been able to sell product than that certainly does matter when discussing how much money they have made. If you have only been selling products for 20 days, it may be very hard to tell how much money has actually been made.
If thats the case, then this entire discussion on did piazo make a mistake for not jumping on board is irrelevant then, no?
By contrast, if you are trying to say they can make money on it, but arent allowed to sell it, you cant tell me you CAN make money on it then....
|
|
Only on this Boards. Go the EN-World and you will find a very big 4th edition community. There was also a Poll on EN-World and it seems that there are a lot of people who are willing to pay for DDI....
polls are irrelevant. they also had a poll that said half the folks werent switching or were unsure.....
What the? Do we have to start having hate 4th Edition threads again to support Pathfinder? Sure I hate 4th edition and yea I throw down cash for Paizo monthly. If people are getting the idea that Paizo made a mistake because I haven't voiced my hatred of 4th Edition in awhile.....LET ME TELL YOU. I still hate it, and I will always hate it. So there. Ahem. Ok, does that mean Pathfinder is hip again?
I have gone past the hate. Hate is such a strong emotion. A hot emotion. If you don't fan the flames, it dies out. I haven't fanned the flames, so my hate has died.
But my dislike is still there. And my decision never to buy anything from wiazrds stands, and will not change. That decision is not just because of the hate I did feel, but because wizards has used up all their Play Again Credits, all their Second Chances. Their actions, decisions and statements have left a bad taste in my mouth once too often (actually, more than once, but once was sufficient), and I cannot justify giving them money.
Maybe in another revolution, when all the people responsible for those actions will have been let go (just like most people who were around when 3e was made, and when the quality of D&D minis was getting better with each release, are no longer with wizards - many of them are at Paizo right now), and wizards is yet another company again, I might give them yet another chance, but no sooner.
I don't think Paizo could have made a mistake either way.
[...]
And I have NO DOUBT IN MY MIND that the Paizo 4e products would have been the best products available.
I think that going with 4e could have been a huge mistake. Not say that it would have been, but the possibility is there, and not that small, either.
Just like you are sure that Paizo's 4e stuff would have been the best stuff available, many are convinced that Paizo's Dragons and Dungeons were the best ones. And what happened to them? Right! License yanked away.
Could happen with the GSL as well. The GSL has an expiration date. The requirement to make product lines that are released under the GSL exclusively under the GSL doesn't. Plus, the GSL can change at any time and you have only very little time to react (by stopping all sales) before you automatically aknowledge any changes to it (and no, they don't have to tell you about the changes, they just have to put something about it on their page. No active warning.*
So if they had done 4e Pathfinder stuff, the 3e Pathfinder stuff would have ended forever. And the GSL can be ended any time. I honestly wouldn't put it past wizards to yank their license when they saw that Pathfinder adventures outsell their own shoddy adventures, in order to bolster their own sales ("our adventures might not be as good as Pathfinder, but at least they're on the market!!").
Sure, that's probably paranoia, and wizards isn't the Evil Corporation I make it out to be.
That doesn't change the fact that the GSL will end. And they don't have to do a new one at that time (which I think will be no later than the release of 5e, and looking at the trend, I think 4e's live cycle will be even shorter than 3e's). After that, Pathfinder would have ended. For good. They'd have to build a new brand, as the old brand recognition would have died with the brand itself.
I can tell you that you would have to threaten me with death or something in that ball park before I signed such a contract.
*Just remember the trials and tribulations the small, Britain-based company AP Dent Publishing has gone through.
"You cannot demolish my house to make way for a bypass!"
"Oh, but we can. It is in the license you signed."
"Not in the one I signed!"
"But that one states that we can change it at any time, and if you don't pull out within 24 hours of its publication, you accept it."
"Publication? PUBLICATION??? You didn't tell me about it at all!"
"We are not required to. We put the amended version onto our website, so you can look at it."
"I can look at it? It was on a hidden website. It doesn't even have a name, only an IP. And you needed IPv6 to get there. And then I had to fight myself through 3 firewalls, 2 password protection systems, and then locate the file itself. It was named 'organHarvesting101.zipp' and hidden. And in a hidden, 26th-tier folder called 'pension funds NOT FOR PUBLIC PERUSAL'. Then, I had to locate a decompression software for the zipp software, which isn't like normal zip. The guy who writes it only sells it in his store, 20 miles from any larger village, somewhere in the Ukraine. They had -3 Kelvin there, I still don't know how that is possible. And then the password was only hinted at with 'third eleven-digit prime number in Pi'. My hardware was destroyed by a super-virus I got form that decompressor. The only print-out I got out of that file had first be decoded by a navaho code talker."
"Yes, as I said, it was published. Have a fun time finding a new home, but do it in a bus, your car is ours also."
|
I've been torn by Paizo not going to D&D 4th Edition. It's abundantly clear that Paizo content is superior. But, I like D&D 4E rules better. Over the last thirty years I've enjoyed all of the new iterations of the game and I have followed each new edition. The new experience each evolution of the game presents has been part of the fun for me.
Living Forgotten Realms has been more fun that I thought - I was one of its main detractors in my area. But, it has turned out very well. So well in fact, that it left no time for my group and the retailers I patronize to get involved in Pathfinder Society.
Anyway, after Second Darkness is over I am gonna stop the Paizo subscriptions I have. I don't have time to convert and I just won't use the products. A tough personal decision, but I do not want to keep spending money on products I shall not use. So for me, personally, Paizo's decision to not switch to 4E was disappointing. I am only one person, though, and I am sure Paizo shall be fine for a couple of years from now in its present course.
I do suspect that the Pathfinder honeymoon shall end at some point in the next couple of years. Perhaps a friendlier Game System License shall be available. I'd love to see Paizo in the 4E market. I'd jump right back on the band wagon in a split second. For now, though, my time and money shall go to the larger D&D 4E community and market.
Chief Technical Officer
|
I'd bet dollars to donuts that 1) had the GSL been released as promised, in a prompt and timely fashion, and 2) that it was written as a partnership between WotC and 3PP instead of what it is now, we'd more than likely be gearing up for a 4E Pathfinder.
You might recall we actually announced the Pathfinder RPG *before* the GSL arrived. I believe that if the GSL and the playtest rules had been released to 3rd parties as initially promised, the only thing different for Paizo is that we would have announced the Pathfinder RPG sooner. We made our decision because we believe that the 3.5 core is the most appropriate system for our Pathfinder products, and even the most open GSL imaginable wouldn't change that.
However, if the GSL had been more amenable, it is likely that non-Pathfinder 4E products resulting from our partnership with Necromancer would already be available.
I'd bet dollars to donuts that 1) had the GSL been released as promised, in a prompt and timely fashion, and 2) that it was written as a partnership between WotC and 3PP instead of what it is now, we'd more than likely be gearing up for a 4E Pathfinder.You might recall we actually announced the Pathfinder RPG *before* the GSL arrived. I believe that if the GSL and the playtest rules had been released to 3rd parties as initially promised, the only thing different for Paizo is that we would have announced the Pathfinder RPG sooner. We made our decision because we believe that the 3.5 core is the most appropriate system for our Pathfinder products, and even the most open GSL imaginable wouldn't change that.
However, if the GSL had been more amenable, it is likely that non-Pathfinder 4E products resulting from our partnership with Necromancer would already be available.
Wasn't Necromacer actually planning a full blown Adventure Path for 4th Edition? (And if I remember rightly, was it not killed by the GSL?)
[Wasn't Necromacer actually planning a full blown Adventure Path for 4th Edition? (
Yep - and I think they still are, presuming the GSL disaster ever gets corrected.
*Just remember the trials and tribulations the small, Britain-based company AP Dent Publishing has gone through.
"You cannot demolish my house to make way for a bypass!"
"Oh, but we can. It is in the license you signed."
"Not in the one I signed!"
"But that one states that we can change it at any time, and if you don't pull out within 24 hours of its publication, you accept it."
"Publication? PUBLICATION??? You didn't tell me about it at all!"
"We are not required to. We put the amended version onto our website, so you can look at it."
"I can look at it? It was on a hidden website. It doesn't even have a name, only an IP. And you needed IPv6 to get there. And then I had to fight myself through 3 firewalls, 2 password protection systems, and then locate the file itself. It was named 'organHarvesting101.zipp' and hidden. And in a hidden, 26th-tier folder called 'pension funds NOT FOR PUBLIC PERUSAL'. Then, I had to locate a decompression software for the zipp software, which isn't like normal zip. The guy who writes it only sells it in his store, 20 miles from any larger village, somewhere in the Ukraine. They had -3 Kelvin there, I still don't know how that is possible. And then the password was only hinted at with 'third eleven-digit prime number in Pi'. My hardware was destroyed by a super-virus I got form that decompressor. The only print-out I got out of that file had first be decoded by a navaho code talker."
"Yes, as I said, it was published. Have a fun time finding a new home, but do it in a bus, your car is ours also."
IIRC, there was something about burned out transistors in the server that caused a shift-phase modulation encryption, as well. :)
|
|
Wasn't Necromacer actually planning a full blown Adventure Path for 4th Edition? (And if I remember rightly, was it not killed by the GSL?)
My understanding was that Paizo was going to publish 4E content under license with Necromancer Games - Paizo content with the Necromancer imprint. And yes, the Game System License threw a monkey wrench into those plans. I hope those plans can be salvaged, though.
I laud Goodman Games for their 4E efforts. We just need more (and better) non-Wizards of the Coast content.
*Edit* Nah, forget all that. Never try to be funny when you are exhausted.
Bottom line, Paizo made the right decision for their business.
Just thought I'd give this information for those that are interested.
I don't usually discuss business on these forums, but I will answer enough to say, "4E is doing well for us." 4E is definitely smaller than the launch of 3.0 so many years ago, and people have a valid point in saying it's a smaller "edition launch" overall. But compared to the trends of the last couple years, 4E has definitely caused a significant increase in sales.
In answer to the specific callout that you quoted, "I haven't heard of any 4e third-party products selling in significant numbers", there was a period in the early days of 3.0 where ANYTHING with the d20 logo could sell great numbers. That effect has not been repeated. And many distributors and retailers who were burned by that period are being even more strict with the (limited) pool of GSL goods available. There may be some third party publishers who hoped that the GSL would be their trampoline into the sales stratosphere... but this time around it appears to require quality product, good partnerships, effective marketing, and all the other nuts-and-bolts business basics, GSL or no GSL.
Sigh, you actually posted it on the Goodman forums. And... I can't believe you actually said that... bleh.
But some of what Goodman is saying sounds... familiar... where have I heard it before... hmm...
Also I wonder if I were to go to Goodman's site and ask on their forums if the Paizo staff's claim that Goodman has't been selling their 4e compatible products in "significant numbers" is vaild, what type of answer I would get.I think defining "significant numbers" is a fair question. I'm not going to say whether we think Goodman's 4E products are selling better than his 3.5 products did, but I don't think that's what Erik was talking about anyway. I think he was saying that we're not seeing any indication of a 3rd-party 4E explosion like we saw with the first d20 products—an explosion that reinvigorated the RPG industry and instantly put companies like Green Ronin and Necromancer on the map. In short, we believe that the sales data we have does not indicate that making a 4E product automatically nets you a "pile of money;" nor does it in any other way indicate that *not* making products 4e-compatible is a mistake.
My goodness, it is like Vic is psychic!
Good for Joe!
I'll bet he's the #1 4E 3pp - and deservedly so.
I'm not buying his stuff anymore, but Goodman gave me plenty of quality stuff I can use for 3.5 and I have no doubt that those who switched to 4E will benefit from his products.
Sigh, you actually posted it on the Goodman forums.
Yup, went to the horse's mouth as it were. I mean if I was on WotC's site and someone said that there were no 3PP making "significant money" continuing to sell 3.5 products, wouldn't I come here to see what the staff says about that? I see nothing unreasonable about that, especially after not getting any independent sources that could be trusted (which is actually what I would have preferred).
And... I can't believe you actually said that... bleh.
Said what? I just quote a statement from a Paizo staff member. Is there something wrong with the statement itself?
But some of what Goodman is saying sounds... familiar... where have I heard it before... hmm...
My goodness, it is like Vic is psychic!Also I wonder if I were to go to Goodman's site and ask on their forums if the Paizo staff's claim that Goodman has't been selling their 4e compatible products in "significant numbers" is vaild, what type of answer I would get.I think defining "significant numbers" is a fair question. I'm not going to say whether we think Goodman's 4E products are selling better than his 3.5 products did, but I don't think that's what Erik was talking about anyway. I think he was saying that we're not seeing any indication of a 3rd-party 4E explosion like we saw with the first d20 products—an explosion that reinvigorated the RPG industry and instantly put companies like Green Ronin and Necromancer on the map. In short, we believe that the sales data we have does not indicate that making a 4E product automatically nets you a "pile of money;" nor does it in any other way indicate that *not* making products 4e-compatible is a mistake.
Indeed, Vic was correct. No doubt there. There is no evidence that Goodman's products are not selling, and in fact if we take him at his word, he says the 4e products are selling better than his 3.x products have in the last few years. So if someone claimed that noone was making money on 4e products, that would be false. And that is a useful bit of information to have for all of us. But Vic was correct, there hasn't been a large explosion of companies popping up yet. Maybe there will never be. Too many crappy products were put out with the d20 logo and as Goodman points out, retailers are skeptical. This is definitely a hard environment to jump into.
Of course all of that doesn't really take Paizo into account. Paizo could certainly have had "quality product, good partnerships, effective marketing, and all the other nuts-and-bolts business basics." So I am unconvinced that they couldn't have (or won't be able to in the future) made a successful run with 4e. But as I said before, I am certain they didn't make a bad decision stick with 3.5 (at least for the moment). They are doing well and that should proof enough that it was not an error to do so. Was it the "best" choice, who can say what a company like Paizo could have done as a 4e 3pp. They didn't and don't appear to be so wishful thinking isn't very meaningful.
[Wasn't Necromacer actually planning a full blown Adventure Path for 4th Edition? (Yep - and I think they still are, presuming the GSL disaster ever gets corrected.
Actually, I like the GSL situation just the way it is, but that's mainly 'cause it makes it easier for companies to stick with OGL. ;)
-The Gneech
Sigh, you actually posted it on the Goodman forums.Yup, went to the horse's mouth as it were. I mean if I was on WotC's site and someone said that there were no 3PP making "significant money" continuing to sell 3.5 products, wouldn't I come here to see what the staff says about that? I see nothing unreasonable about that, especially after not getting any independent sources that could be trusted (which is actually what I would have preferred).
It isn't unreasonable. However I would call the way you presented that statement very unreasonable.
And... I can't believe you actually said that... bleh.Said what? I just quote a statement from a Paizo staff member. Is there something wrong with the statement itself?
And you preceded that quote by saying that some Paizo representatives were saying that 3pp 4e products were selling poorly. I feel this was a distortion of the what was actually said.
And you preceded that quote by saying that some Paizo representatives were saying that 3pp 4e products were selling poorly. I feel this was a distortion of the what was actually said.
Sorry, that is my fault, I was thinking more of the other "posters" when I prefaced it, I merely meant to say that some staff had weighed in suggesting no 3pp products had sold in "significant numbers". But you are right, it could have been stated better.
Sometimes, even when you're right, you lose.
|
Creative Director
|
Goodman's 4E-compatible modules look REALLY sharp. I saw a few at Gen Con and was very impressed with them, particularly the cool full-color map inserts. Great-looking products!
As for whether or not Paizo could have made more or less money doing 4E or not... I doubt we'll ever know. We've been FAR more successful than we'd hoped with 3.5 stuff and the Pathfinder RPG so far, though. A big part of that is that the authors and editors we have are very passionate and dedicated toward making these products great, and passion and pride in your work is perhaps the most important element behind making a good product, I think. Distribution and public awareness and all that are important too... but if you're just phoning it in and not putting your heart into what you do... you're crippling the product at birth.
Personally (and not speaking for Paizo as a whole), I have that passion for the 3.5 rules, for Pathfinder RPG, and particularly for the tradition of the game going back to the early days. I don't/haven't been able to secure that passion for 4th edition. That's a personal thing, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to put the same amount of obsessive work into 4th edition products that I currently do for our own products, partially because I simply prefer the 3.5 system, but mostly because it's MUCH more satisfying to me to be working on something that I and the company I work for own and control rather than working on something that boosts another company. Working on Dungeon was VERY cool... but it was licensed work. Working on Pathfinder has been a lot more rewarding for me.
It would have been difficult for me to put that much dedication and work into a line of 4E products. Maybe eventually I would change my heathen ways and learn to love the game; it's certainly an elegantly designed game. But could I have reached that point before my own preferences for 3.5 and Pathfinder burnt me out and resulted in a corresponding loss of quality to my work for Paizo? I'm not sure.
For me, personally, Paizo sticking with 3.5 was not a mistake. That the decision turned out to be a very successful financial decision was enormously rewarding to me (and a vast relief to my wallet and continued employment). Could we have made more money going with 4E? Maybe. Maybe not. But I'd rather make a living working on something I love rather than getting even richer working on something that's just a job.
polls are irrelevant. they also had a poll that said half the folks werent switching or were unsure.....
Only on this Boards. Go the EN-World and you will find a very big 4th edition community. There was also a Poll on EN-World and it seems that there are a lot of people who are willing to pay for DDI....
Just because I bought the 4th edition books doesn't mean I'm 'switching'. I still have all my old books, and I'll still play if I can find a D&D group (any edition).
Currently I'm playing World of Darkness, and Palladium Fantasy, and running Rifts. Also, I would love to get a GURPS game off the ground.
|
|
I will pretend to know the roleplaying industry.
We're very happy with our decision.
I haven't heard of any 4e third-party products selling in significant numbers, and Pathfinder's numbers have been significant since the beginning.
Again, we are confident we made the right decision for ourselves and for our customers.
Very very true indeed. You guys mad the right move.
As for the current batch of 4e third party products - they are definitely lacking. If Paizo had been there from the word go then your stuff would have sold well but frankly you did the right thing.
In the long term, with a flexible license, you guys could be the top publisher for both OGL and 4e compatible products.
I hope that comes to pass someday.
|
|
Indeed, Vic was correct. No doubt there. There is no evidence that Goodman's products are not selling, and in fact if we take him at his word, he says the 4e products are selling better than...
Lets see...he's the only game in town for 4e vs a flooded near the end market 3.5 market.
Of course their selling better. Duh.
The question is how is the money from his firsst release of 3.5 products compared to 4e ones...
What do you mean by 'not going with', is there some reason Paizo could not make a 4e product if they wanted to? Or, has WotC locked out some producers for spite?
For me, personally, Paizo sticking with 3.5 was not a mistake. That the decision turned out to be a very successful financial decision was enormously rewarding to me (and a vast relief to my wallet and continued employment). Could we have made more money going with 4E? Maybe. Maybe not. But I'd rather make a living working on something I love rather than getting even richer working on something that's just a job.
You go, dude! :D
-The Gneech
What do you mean by 'not going with', is there some reason Paizo could not make a 4e product if they wanted to?
Yes: The GSL.
|
What do you mean by 'not going with', is there some reason Paizo could not make a 4e product if they wanted to? Or, has WotC locked out some producers for spite?
I have not seen the revised GSL, and frankly am not interested in it any more. The original GSL was extremely restrictive as to what a publisher could and could not do with their business. Essentially it was a kiss of death. WOTC could declare your products unsatisfactory at any time with no reason and you had to stop publishing. If you disagreed and wanted to sue, you could, but you had to pay all legal fees, including those for WOTC. Also, if say, a company published a book featuring the new 4E version of the Cavalier and then WOTC decided to publish a Cavalier, the 3rd party company had to stop selling their product as it then "copied" an official WOTC class. Even if the rest of the book had nothing to do with the Cavalier.
That GSL was a kiss of death.
Now, frankly, based upon experience here at our FLGS Pathfinder has been the right way to go. 4E sales have slowed a lot. Pathfinder cannot stay on the shelves. Almost every single 4E advocate has expressed some doubts about 4E, and has expressed gratitude for Pathfinder. I know of only one 4E true blue fan, personally. But I keep hearing a lot of people saying they plan on or have already sold their 4E stuff on eBay. One guy was really pissed. He sold all his old 3.5 stuff on eBay, so he could buy 4E. He bought 4E and was very disappointed. He then sold his 4E on eBay and is trying to rebuild his 3.5 collection at a HUGE loss.
|
|
While most interpretations of the Game System License conclude that it serves as a disincentive to produce 4E content, at the end of the day publishers make their own decisions whether or not to get into the 4E market. We can blame the awful GSL and point our condemning fingers at it. But, people decide whether or not to publish in 4E. So, the most accurate answer to Tensor's question is that Paizo (and others) independently decided not to go with 4E - nobody's been locked out of producing 4E content.
And, just to add some contrast to the discussion, the largest hobby and game store in our area has not moved their Pathfinder product. I was there yesterday, and he still has the same stack of Rise of the Runelord products I thumbed through last year. That stack has been joined by a pile of untouched Curse of the Crimson Throne product. They have not ordered any Second Darkness product.
Meanwhile, the same retailer anxiously waits every week for Alliance (their distributor) to send them new 4E gift sets, as he cannot keep them in stock. The same with Wizards of the Coast's Dungeon Tiles and even the mediocre WotC 4E adventures. I bought two 4E Player's Handbooks because we often have new people getting involved in organized play (LFR) that have not had time to get their own, yet.
And, just to add some contrast to the discussion, the largest hobby and game store in our area has not moved their Pathfinder product. I was there yesterday, and he still has the same stack of Rise of the Runelord products I thumbed through last year. That stack has been joined by a pile of untouched Curse of the Crimson Throne product. They have not ordered any Second Darkness product.
Meanwhile, the same retailer anxiously waits every week for Alliance (their distributor) to send them new 4E gift sets, as he cannot keep them in stock. The same with Wizards of the Coast's Dungeon Tiles and even the mediocre WotC 4E adventures. I bought two 4E Player's Handbooks because we often have new people getting involved in organized play (LFR) that have not had time to get their own, yet.
Heh the one book store I have a books a million 20 miles from here does not order any paizo stuff, yet cant get rid of the 4e stuff they have had since day 1. It does not sale and they do not discount. But they are now out of 3.5 stuff, every thing gone. I was told they where gonna get some more from the warehouse since it was still selling.
|
|
And, just to add some contrast to the discussion, the largest hobby and game store in our area has not moved their Pathfinder product. I was there yesterday, and he still has the same stack of Rise of the Runelord products I thumbed through last year. That stack has been joined by a pile of untouched Curse of the Crimson Throne product. They have not ordered any Second Darkness product.
Isn't the bulk of Paizo's sales via its subscription program(s)?
One guy was really pissed. He sold all his old 3.5 stuff on eBay, so he could buy 4E. He bought 4E and was very disappointed. He then sold his 4E on eBay and is trying to rebuild his 3.5 collection at a HUGE loss.
As much as I dislike 4e and all that, I must say that this wasn't really the smartest course of action. First inspect the core rules of a new system before you commit like that.
While most interpretations of the Game System License conclude that it serves as a disincentive to produce 4E content, at the end of the day publishers make their own decisions whether or not to get into the 4E market.
Sure, but sometimes the one of the two choices you have is so bad that it's a pseudo-decison at best.
For me,
"either wait until whenever they deem to give you the details of their license, losing money and reputation all the way as deadlines zoom by, with no guarantee that the license will ever be there or that it even allows you to do these products; or don't do 4e",
or
"either give away control over your product line and face an uncertain future as the can always screw you over if they want and there's nothing you can do (and the "they're nice guys, they won't do that" line isn't one you want to bet real money on) about that; or don't do 4e"
Sounds a bit like
"you sign over your house to us and we let you live in there (but that won't be written down in the contract, so if we should decide to throw you out, there's nothing you dan do); or we won't give you the antitode"
Sure, it's a "decision". You can always choose to die. And they can claim that they gave them a choice.
No.
+1
My 4e days are numbered once we get our home-brew out the door. We'll take some lessons learned from the game and use it in the new one, but overall I find it (4e) quite the bore.
|
|
Goodman's 4E-compatible modules look REALLY sharp. I saw a few at Gen Con and was very impressed with them, particularly the cool full-color map inserts. Great-looking products!
As for whether or not Paizo could have made more or less money doing 4E or not... I doubt we'll ever know. We've been FAR more successful than we'd hoped with 3.5 stuff and the Pathfinder RPG so far, though. A big part of that is that the authors and editors we have are very passionate and dedicated toward making these products great, and passion and pride in your work is perhaps the most important element behind making a good product, I think. Distribution and public awareness and all that are important too... but if you're just phoning it in and not putting your heart into what you do... you're crippling the product at birth.
Personally (and not speaking for Paizo as a whole), I have that passion for the 3.5 rules, for Pathfinder RPG, and particularly for the tradition of the game going back to the early days. I don't/haven't been able to secure that passion for 4th edition. That's a personal thing, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to put the same amount of obsessive work into 4th edition products that I currently do for our own products, partially because I simply prefer the 3.5 system, but mostly because it's MUCH more satisfying to me to be working on something that I and the company I work for own and control rather than working on something that boosts another company. Working on Dungeon was VERY cool... but it was licensed work. Working on Pathfinder has been a lot more rewarding for me.
It would have been difficult for me to put that much dedication and work into a line of 4E products. Maybe eventually I would change my heathen ways and learn to love the game; it's certainly an elegantly designed game. But could I have reached that point before my own preferences for 3.5 and Pathfinder burnt me out and resulted in a corresponding loss of quality to my work for Paizo? I'm not sure.
For me, personally, Paizo sticking with 3.5 was not a mistake. That the decision turned out to be a very successful financial decision was enormously rewarding to me (and a vast relief to my wallet and continued employment). Could we have made more money going with 4E? Maybe. Maybe not. But I'd rather make a living working on something I love rather than getting even richer working on something that's just a job.
Wow, that really says a lot. I think James, you are living the dream, and I think it is wonderful that you know it. That is the most incredible statement I have ever read from you, on your passion for what you are doing. I would gladly give you money on the street if you needed it. Truly, you are not just a person who loves the game, but one who can appreciate the moment (whatever that may be). I have read a lot of your posts, and they resonate everything you have said above. You are definitely a role model in my book. I feel like sending you a dinosaur. Bless you and your family. We are all better in knowing you in whatever guise you appear.
Cheers,
Zuxius
I have said it before and I'll say it again: Wizards of the Coast is turning D&D into Magic: the Gathering.
Are you talking about the new miniatures they want to release? The hero packs will have cards with new powers. Gotta catch them all!
One class ability booster, please. Maybe I can finish my Divine Might deck and make my Paladin unstoppable...
:D
|
I have to say. Paizo did the right thing with Pathfinder. Their book keepers would agree. Besides I cant help but notice that high quality product is good for everyone.
I may only play 4E but I still buy Pathfinder. Love the art. Interested in having a cool world that I can use and I love searching for ideas to use in my game.
Everyone wins.
3E hold outs get to keep playing.
4E players get fluff they can use.
Paizo gets to keep game designers employed.
Paizo gets to make money.
Other 3E publishers get to have a rulebook they can point to.
Everyone wins.
|
I have to say. Paizo did the right thing with Pathfinder. Their book keepers would agree. Besides I cant help but notice that high quality product is good for everyone.
I may only play 4E but I still buy Pathfinder. Love the art. Interested in having a cool world that I can use and I love searching for ideas to use in my game.
Everyone wins.
3E hold outs get to keep playing.
4E players get fluff they can use.
Paizo gets to keep game designers employed.
Paizo gets to make money.
Other 3E publishers get to have a rulebook they can point to.
Everyone wins.
Whilst MY ultimate win would be Pathfinder 4E I have to agree with you, after finishing my home conversion of Birthright I foolishly re-read some of my Pathfinder/Gamemastery stuff and I'm determined that's where I want my 4E game set. Yes it's a little more work for me (made a little easier by the Wotc bonus tools) but the richness of the setting and the awesome flavour of the adventures make it a no brainer.
So as soon as I finish my mates game I'll run this with my other group, mmm Star Wars & Pathfinder(4E), roleplay has never been this sweet.
Now to get Gods and magic, second darkness & Elves of Golarion and my collection is up to date (cursed OCD!!)
|
|
Whilst MY ultimate win would be Pathfinder 4E ...
I share that sentiment. Sadly, I have zero time to convert. Even more sad, I'll be ending my two Paizo subscriptions when Second Darkness concludes. So, it's Scales of War, Wizards of the Coast, "H/P/E" series adventures and Dungeon content for me. Thankfully, Dungeon is getting better.
Even with the decision to not publish under the GSL for now, Paizo remains my favorite adventure publisher for 4th Edition. I just have to do a little more work than usual to make use of them.
I think Mr. Betts sums up my feelings exactly. I've made the switch to 4e - somewhat reluctantly at first - but now that I've run 4e for a few months, I doubt I'm ever going back to 3.5. I just like the feel of 4e. It's easy to play, easy to run, and I really enjoy how simple it is to create new stuff or convert material from other systems. However, WotC doesn't want to tell the kind of stories my group wants to play. We're not interested in 'random plotless dungeon crawl #57' - or 'rehash of some dungeon that came out when you were a kid.' Paizo has done a really fantastic job keeping a good stable of authors around and writing engaging plotlines and an immersive world. I might not be interested in buying their system, but I'm sure willing to convert their stories and world to the system of my choice.
Also, as others mentioned. I think it would have been a huge mistake for Paizo to publish material under the GSL. You need to keep ownership of your material, and the GSL seems to basically make you a lesser partner in a deal with WotC. I think that's a bad business decision on WotC's part, but only time will tell.
|
|
I have to say. Paizo did the right thing with Pathfinder. Their book keepers would agree. Besides I cant help but notice that high quality product is good for everyone.
I may only play 4E but I still buy Pathfinder. Love the art. Interested in having a cool world that I can use and I love searching for ideas to use in my game.
Everyone wins.
3E hold outs get to keep playing.
4E players get fluff they can use.
Paizo gets to keep game designers employed.
Paizo gets to make money.
Other 3E publishers get to have a rulebook they can point to.
Everyone wins.
Great post.
|
We (a group of over 40 year old players) are all in for 3.5, and will play it the rest of our lives. Wizards can do 4.0, 4.5, 5.0, 6.0, and we will still be playing PFRPG.
This is the game we are familiar with, and we have shelves full of books that will keep us busy.
My group has been together for ~20 years and we too are all about 40 years old.
I was the 1st to want to change to 4th, but that changed as I read more about it, until I am now (as is my goup) sticking wih 3.5 and playtesting Pathfinder (which we all love so far).4th may be easy to learn but we just feel it is too simplified.
We loved many 3rd party publishers stuff for 3.5 and feel that to lose then in 4th is not a good move; but only the future can tell (so far it seems Pathfinder and 4th are doing ok).
So short answer is 'NO' Paizo did NOT make a mistake but not going to 4th.
|
|
Even with the decision to not publish under the GSL for now, Paizo remains my favorite adventure publisher for 4th Edition. I just have to do a little more work than usual to make use of them.I think Mr. Betts sums up my feelings exactly. I've made the switch to 4e - somewhat reluctantly at first - but now that I've run 4e for a few months, I doubt I'm ever going back to 3.5. I just like the feel of 4e. It's easy to play, easy to run, and I really enjoy how simple it is to create new stuff or convert material from other systems. However, WotC doesn't want to tell the kind of stories my group wants to play. We're not interested in 'random plotless dungeon crawl #57' - or 'rehash of some dungeon that came out when you were a kid.' Paizo has done a really fantastic job keeping a good stable of authors around and writing engaging plotlines and an immersive world. I might not be interested in buying their system, but I'm sure willing to convert their stories and world to the system of my choice.
Also, as others mentioned. I think it would have been a huge mistake for Paizo to publish material under the GSL. You need to keep ownership of your material, and the GSL seems to basically make you a lesser partner in a deal with WotC. I think that's a bad business decision on WotC's part, but only time will tell.
Bravo!
Very well said!I am sticking with 3.5/Pathinder, but will use any good story/plot I come accross as well, be it Wotc, Paizo, Neco etc.