I'd like to see the bard move from the wandering minstrel back to the dilettante adventurer.
Reglardless of game, I look at a class from two perspectives:
1) Basic concept: What the class is, or was originally meant to be.
2) Abilities and potential: What the class can be.
When the average player looks at the Bard from perspective #1, "Bard" becomes "the Village Idiot class"... I mean, who wants to play a dork who sings and plays a lute while surrounded by murderous orcs!!! Is he mental? This is the reason why the average player reviles Bards and avoids them like the plague... from the point of view of the average player, the Bard is the quintessential example of lame.
When I look at a Bard from perspective #2, however, I see someone adept at motivating people and making them more effective in the battlefield... rather sounds like an officer-type to me, or a "people's hero": Someone who can rally a mob of oppresed people and have them actually succeed at throwing their shackles away. Sure, the ability may be called Bardic Music, and it's dependant on the Perform skill, but no rule in the book forbids you from taking Perform: Oratory, and use your "Bard Music" as war cries, taunts, and motivational speeches. Why not? After all...
1) His weapon proficiencies are pretty decent.
2) His skills are second only to the Rogue's. Sure, you're forced to spend points on Perform for Bard Music AND Spellcraft for casting in the frontlines, but 4 skill points/level is still pretty decent and more skill points than the Fighter or Cleric will ever see.
3) Pretty nice saves.
4) His buffs are second only to the cleric's.
5) Arcane caster that can cast in light armor and shield with no arcane spell failure.
6) Leadership skills.
7) No Paladin conduct code.
So, musical dork or inspiring hero? In your gaming table, the Bard is what you make of it.
Sure, the ability may be called Bardic Music, and it's dependant on the Perform skill, but no rule in the book forbids you from taking Perform: Oratory, and use your "Bard Music" as war cries, taunts, and motivational speeches. Why not? After all...
I thought everyone already was taking Perform: Oratory as their No 1 choice. Why? Because you can fight and keep your Bard song going. Attacking with a sword is kind of hard when you need two hands for a lute.
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it really depends in our RotRL Campaigns the bard is Varisian Dancer... yes he all foudn it quite ridculous a failed attempt to mesmerize a goblin while she danced... but hey no complains
in other campaign we have halfling politic with oratory, also is the kind of politician that will kiss babyes and date your mom... aside of that my only complain is he is halfling... but no oen is perfect
in yet another i use an elven bard as captain of a ship... with oratory as her perform, as mentioned by Dogbert, she gives orders, makes speeaces and demands parley... still as i use the class bard the DM has not finished to understand she is not a performer... she went to no performing or academic school... but to a naval academy to learn her job!!!
still a lot of my players see the bard as the old trouvador, not even as the 2nd edition red mage, and i have seen to many lute/flute/electric guitar bards around
we would like to see a more open description of the bard... amyb even another name,.. yeah i know i am asking for miracles, the class has some interesting skills and attributes... but sometimes the concept drowns some posibilities... i am still trying to convinmce my M i am not a trouvador...
Calm down, take a deep breath, a couple of cold showers, a brisk run in the woods.
I definitely agree with your assessment as far as a lot of players are concerned. I don't know if it's the average player. My games tend to be about 50% male/female, all over the age of 20, and mostly, but not completely serious. There's room for a silly character, so bards aren't exactly an unpopular option. I mean, yes, giving motivational speeches, or singing, or performing comedy tends to turn the character into the party jester (such as KaeYoss's terrifying avatar), but we kind of like that. Maybe we're not average (does that make us above or below?...) Generally the guy who's worried because he's not 'kicking as much ass' as the guy next to him isn't really that welcome at our table, as he'll quickly get bored of talking and doing puzzles and not playing 4e.
As for the analysis of what a bard could become, I agree wholeheartedly. I like having a character that takes a little ingenuity to play. Given the right selection of spells and feats, the bard is a very powerful character, in its own way. I think a lot of the people who hate the bard are generally the 'I wanna beat monsters up. Wicked hard' crowd, and not the 'I want to tell a good story' crowd.
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i would agree
but most of the "funny" players i have got... hjave chosen other clases, they are just trying to be funny anyway
and Kaye koss is follower of the dark deity only known as THE Joker...
which i think... yes... he would have been a "bard" a dark comedian... and he not usually sings... nor is funny... none at all, even if i laught alongside him
PS: yes... Batman is a Paladin mutliclased either with Monk or Rogue or both :P
As for the analysis of what a bard could become, I agree wholeheartedly. I like having a character that takes a little ingenuity to play. Given the right selection of spells and feats, the bard is a very powerful character, in its own way. I think a lot of the people who hate the bard are generally the 'I wanna beat monsters up. Wicked hard' crowd, and not the 'I want to tell a good story' crowd.
I have a bit of a problem with that whole idea that only people who don't care about the story don't want to play the bard. It's just not true. I think the concept of the bard is awesome, and it ought to be my favorite class in the game. It's absolutely what I want to play, except for one rather glaring problem. It's boring as heck. I love story. I love the puzzle solving and the social interaction. But face it, combat does happen sometimes. And when it does, the turn-based structure is already hard enough on my attention span without adding any extra handicaps. Nothing kills a good story faster than spending half your time being bored senseless. I think this has a lot to do with why I've only ever seen the bard played as a multiclass.
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Well, I did say a lot, and not all, or even the majority. How did you get bored with a bard? It has good skill points, two good saves, songs, spells, and moderately good BAB. It has a ton of options and play-styles. Or, a better question is, what would make it not boring? I mean, it needs a boost, sure, but it shouldn't be the monster stomper a wizard or barbarian can be.
Well, I did say a lot, and not all, or even the majority. How did you get bored with a bard? It has good skill points, two good saves, songs, spells, and moderately good BAB. It has a ton of options and play-styles. Or, a better question is, what would make it not boring? I mean, it needs a boost, sure, but it shouldn't be the monster stomper a wizard or barbarian can be.
I really don't care about being a monster stomper. It's fun once in a while, but not necessary. Most of the problem came from a lack of options in combat situations. Inspire courage may possibly be the world's most boring ability ever. Useful, but boring to use. And there really aren't that many uses of bardic music available, or spells to cast before you run out. It's okay for the first couple of levels when everyone else sucks too, but after that it's really easy to feel useless. And it doesn't help that my group tends to play high charisma characters so there isn't really much opportunity to shine even in the one area the bard IS suppposed to be good at. I have a really hard time playing a character that can't do anything better than someone else in the party. I can buff, but the cleric does it better. I can fight a little, but everyone else does it better. I can cast spells, but the sorcerer does it better. I know a lot of stuff, but so does the wizard. There's nothing about the bard that really stands out on its own and gives it a place to shine.
Yeah, barda can be what you make them be. If you make them be the singing dork, then yes, he will be it.
However, in my games I took great pains to ensure to the players via RP that "Bard" is a title, not something you call a singer or performer. If you call ye old singer a Bard, you are complimenting him -AND offending true Bards: Guys and gals who can sing music so powerfull that unleashes magic.
By that, my games are 50% girl, 50% guys, most of them relatively serious, and around 20 too. The games are very dramatic, with a lot of rp and sexual-oriented content. So, in a game with good looks, lots of seduction (and gains with it), importance on romance and sex, OF COURSE there will be always a player that wants to play a bard.
I'd like to see the bard move from the wandering minstrel back to the dilettante adventurer.Reglardless of game, I look at a class from two perspectives:
1) Basic concept: What the class is, or was originally meant to be.
2) Abilities and potential: What the class can be.When the average player looks at the Bard from perspective #1, "Bard" becomes "the Village Idiot class"... I mean, who wants to play a dork who sings and plays a lute while surrounded by murderous orcs!!! Is he mental? This is the reason why the average player reviles Bards and avoids them like the plague... from the point of view of the average player, the Bard is the quintessential example of lame.
You have precisely captured the essence of why I don't play Bards. I have done so once (I think it was only once) for a very brief period (probably one sesion, and certainly no more than a few - I no longer remember), just to have some experience with every class, but otherwise I just don't play them.
It doesn't matter how powerful they can be made with their abilities, to me Bards are the essence of lame due to their flavor. The Barbarian smashes his enemies, while the rogue deceives them and slits their throats, all the while the Bard... sings at them. Yes, I know, it doesn't have to be like that and Bards can do other things, or one can reinterpret Bardic music to mean inspirational speeches, but the connotations of the Bard haunt me in my subconscious.
I recognize that Bards certainly have their place in the game and that others might enjoy playing them and indeed Bards need to be balanced appropriately for that reason. As to personal preference, however, Bards are just not for me.
but the connotations of the Bard haunt me in my subconscious
That's because the great Chthulhu has Mother Hydra sing her terrible Bard Song from the confines of her subaquatic city, and you can feel it!
So, for your nightmares: Bard!
Bard!
...Bard!
...
I DM a group of 5 guys and 1 girl ages between low tenties to mid thirties. No one has ever played a bard, one player keeps joking that if he dies he's going to play a mime bard. They where an ok class back in 1st edition since then they have warped some. I think they kind of suck and I would never play one unless I knew it was going to be an all city based campaign.
I think they kind of suck and I would never play one unless I knew it was going to be an all city based campaign.
And even then, you're better off as a Rogue. More skills, and you don't have to waste two skill points per level on a skill that doesn't do anything (in case you haven't been paying attention, that's Perform).
I'm a veteran player of two Bards: one a high-Charisma buffing Bard with a minor in melee, and the other a Wizard/Virtuoso who showed that the Wizard can completely out-do the Bard in every way.
And the one thing I've learned is that the truth is, as it stands, anything the Bard can do, other classes can do better if they wish, from buffing to fighting to spellcasting to social skills. Bards don't even get Intimidate.
Bards really need something to call their own.
As for the wandering minstrel, as I posted in another thread, if the preinstalled flavor were stripped down, there'd be much more room for creativity when making a Bard.
-Matt
...who wants to play a dork who sings and plays a lute while surrounded by murderous orcs!!! Is he mental?
After seeing this issue come up with more than a few players (some playing under DMs who are "not me", some on these boards), I'm forced to conclude that the "average player" isn't so much mental as they have poor reading comprehension and perhaps a lack of creative insight.
As I just finished posting in another thread, Bards are quite capable of fighting while maintaining their more combat-oriented performance effects.
If drawing a weapon can be done as part of a move action, and starting a performance is a standard action, that means that Cyrano de Bergerac (the archetype of the Bard) can both draw his rapier and begin using oratory to demoralize his foes (i.e. inspiring himself), at the same time. For the rest of the duel, old Cyrano continues to perform his verse, parrying and riposting until finally, as he finishes the refrain, "Thrust home!"
And the one thing I've learned is that the truth is, as it stands, anything the Bard can do, other classes can do better if they wish, from buffing to fighting to spellcasting to social skills. Bards don't even get Intimidate.Bards really need something to call their own.
-Matt
See, I'm not sure I get this complaint. A bard is supposed to be a jack of all trades, so of course anything they go another class can do better. That's why those classes are focused and the bard is not. I mean, I get what you're saying, but how can you fix that problem and leave the bard a jack of all trades.
They do have something to call their own, in terms of bardic performance. I agree with you that this needs a boost (spells need to quit adding morale bonuses, and the bard songs need to be made stronger), but they do kinda have something to call their own.
Just a minor observation: Bards can get intimidate. They'll just not get the +3 bonus until late in the game (Currently level 19, Jack of All Trades will probably be split up, and it's possible that the everything's a class skill will be moved down).
And the one thing I've learned is that the truth is, as it stands, anything the Bard can do, other classes can do better if they wish, from buffing to fighting to spellcasting to social skills. Bards don't even get Intimidate.Bards really need something to call their own.
-MattSee, I'm not sure I get this complaint. A bard is supposed to be a jack of all trades, so of course anything they go another class can do better. That's why those classes are focused and the bard is not. I mean, I get what you're saying, but how can you fix that problem and leave the bard a jack of all trades.
They do have something to call their own, in terms of bardic performance. I agree with you that this needs a boost (spells need to quit adding morale bonuses, and the bard songs need to be made stronger), but they do kinda have something to call their own.
I think if bardic music had more options that you could do with it, especially at lower levels, that would really help it stand out more as its own ability. Right now the bard's one defining cool ability gets totally overshadowed. Other classes can do it better, and you don't even get any choices about it so there's no real strategic planning. And I think that making bardic music stand out more as its own thing would go a long way towards changing the bard's image as lame.
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I'll admit to a certain level of ignorance as to what a Bard can really do, as I've never seen a mid or high level one played (and myself have only used them as NPCs or antagonists, since they are most effective, IMO, in an encounter where their 'music' is inspiring a dozen minions), so this might already be possible...
I would like to see a Bard have some sort of inspiring performance that allows their allies a chance to break free from various mind-affecting spells / effects, such as fears, charms, dazes, confusion, etc. Perhaps such a thing would just allow another immediate saving throw to break free, costing a single use of Bardic Music (and usable as a move-related action?).
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I played a half orc bard/ranger who's instrument was a war drum he carried straped to his back, he played it using his specially designed orc-double axe (the top of the axe was a smooth flat surface so that he could beat the drum with it) The character was awesome and because of the way i played him very effective. he also could use every single skill in the game at half his level, way before 4th edition was a glimmer in 13 year olds eyes.
I think if bardic music had more options that you could do with it, especially at lower levels, that would really help it stand out more as its own ability. Right now the bard's one defining cool ability gets totally overshadowed. Other classes can do it better, and you don't even get any choices about it so there's no real strategic planning. And I think that making bardic music stand out more as its own thing would go a long way towards changing the bard's image as lame.
Ah, yes. I agree. The morale bonuses granted by bardic music should always be better than the equivalent morale bonuses granted by clerics and wizards of the same level. Hell, the bard should probably be the best buffer in the game in this regard. Also, I agree, it needs more options and a bit of a boost.
I would like to see a Bard have some sort of inspiring performance that allows their allies a chance to break free from various mind-affecting spells / effects, such as fears, charms, dazes, confusion, etc. Perhaps such a thing would just allow another immediate saving throw to break free, costing a single use of Bardic Music (and usable as a move-related action?).
That's a cool idea. It's sort of already there for sonic and illusions, but it'd be cool to see the bard as the ultimate 'free the others from mindf*ck effects' character.